The Pigeons~Seriously

[irina]

We keep dipping into the theory of incest or abuse based on this and that. Debbie can probably jump right in and flesh out my concept which I approach from past experience of kindness to animals advocacy. It is well known that controlling abusers or incestual abusers frequently threaten to kill or harm pets if the victims don't do what they are told or don't keep their mouths shut. I can't find much on the pigeon incident and a perusal of this forum's archives suggests it has not been looked at deeply.

Referring then to the trial, opening my Moody and testimony by Alice Russell we gain the following knowledge. "'That', said Miss Russell, 'was merely boys after pigeons,'" said Moody in discussing break-ins to the Borden property. Miss Russell testified, "And I said, 'Oh well, you know well that that was somebody after pigeons; there is nothing in there for them to go after but pigeons.'" She was discussing break-ins with Lizzie.

Oddly, pigeons are part of the barn story. Funny thing to think about in re: her parents having been killed. Knowlton asked how long Lizzie was "under the pear tree" on her way to the barn. Lizzie answered, "I think I was under the pear tree very nearly four or five minutes. I stood looking around. I looked up at the pigeon house that they have closed up..."

At the inquest Knowlton bored in on Andrew killing pigeons when he questioned Lizzie. First he asks Lizzie if she knows of any reason for any blood to be on any axes/hatchets, if such was the case. Can she, "tell of any killing of any animal..."

A: No sir, he killed some pigeons in the barn last May or June.
Q: What with?
A: I don't know, but I thought he wrung their necks.
Q: What made you think so?
A: I think he said so.
Q: Did anything else make you think so?
A: All but three or four had their heads on, that is what made me think so.
Q: Did all of them come into the house?
A: I think so.
Q: Those that came into the house were all headless?
A: Two or three had them on.
Q: Were any with their heads off?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Cut or twisted off?
A: I don't know which.
Q: How did they look?
A: I don't know, their heads were gone, that is all.
Q: Did you tell anybody they looked as though they were twisted off?
A: I don't remember if I did or not. The skin I think was very tender, I said why are these heads off? I think I remember telling somebody that he said they twisted off.
Q: Did they look as if they were cut off?
A: I don't know, I did not look at that particularly.

So that's the pigeon story, all I can officially find of it. We all assume kids broke into the barn to mess with the pigeons so Andrew killed the pigeons to stop the boys from breaking in. Does that make any sense? In all of Fall River, the Borden's barn was the best or only place to get pigeons? Were they really special pet pigeons worth breaking in to play with? Were the supposed boys after pigeons to eat? Was Andrew raising squab? Knowing Andrew was a miser we can understand he wouldn't waste pigeon meat and thus I am sure they became pigeon pie, but why did he show them off in the house in Lizzie's presence? Surely he could have dispatched them early in the morning before she was up and Bridget could have them in a pot before breakfast. He brought them in feathers and all and if they were to be plucked, that kind of activity is done outside. So, what the heck?

After the pigeon killing both Lizzie and Abby discussed the daylight robbery with others, something they had been forbidden telling, by Andrew. Was his control breaking down? What part in any of this did the killing of the pigeons lead to, if any? Was cruelty to animals something that happened in that household? (No, I don't think Lizzie killed Abby's cat.) They didn't seem to have pets over the years. A good watch dog might have helped on August 4. I'm sure Debbie will pick up on this and point out some other things.

[debbiediablo]

I don't see killing pigeons as cruelty to animals, not even twisting off their heads. Instant death is death so long as they're not tortured. Likely bringing them in the house was commonplace back then. Probably a delivery to Bridget for plucking. I've had all kinds of game show up in almost every condition in my kitchen - and this includes one "surprise" rattlesnake from my misguided husband. (He said here's something for dinner. I peeked in, then promptly called him a string of names that would get me forever booted from this forum and immediately demanded a divorce....all in about 3.75 seconds.) As a child I can remember older boys showing up to hunt pigeons in our barn; the rule was no guns because stray bullets put holes in roof and walls. IF these pigeons were Lizzie's pets, then the whole scenario changes to one of wanton cruelty or simple uncaring or a combination. Threats against animals in the commission of sex crimes against children have nothing to do with cruelty to animals. It has to do with leveraging control over the child with whatever looks to be the most effective. Once the threat is enacted, the leverage is gone and the ante has to go up...I'll twist off your baby brother's head just like I did with that pigeon.

[Aamartin]

One time there was a problem with a great many pigeons in my town. Mainly, their poop. Men actually gathered one Sunday morning to shoot them. Despite my threats to suspend the annual donation my father's estate set up towards the community swimming pool. I did it on principal and was legally able to do so as I administer the trust and my father wrote it with wide leverage for me. People didn't care. They wanted the pigeons and their poop gone. Even if it cost the pool $5000. Which it didn't end up doing. They called my bluff and I folded.

[Curryong]

Leaving aside the question of possible animal cruelty, which I abhor, no, Anthony, I don't believe that the Bordens' pigeons were 'special'. All over the town of Fall River, and district boys broke into barns, tried to distress pigeons in pigeon houses, stole birds eggs, and pinched apples and pears from the trees in residents' yards. In time honoured fashion, in a manner totally unacceptable today, they no doubt put linement under horses' tails to make them buck and teased cats and dogs.

Not everyone had pear trees of course, and not every resident had a pigeon house. Andrew had both. Therefore his property held an irresistable attraction to the young lads of the district. No doubt they felt taking his pears and trying to get his pigeons was an even greater pleasure than usual because he was such an old grump. If he came out and was angry and shouted and waved his arms, all the better, they thought. They knew he wouldn't be able to catch them.

Andrew waged war back on the boys by, he thought, limiting his garden's attraction to them. It wasn't effective, because, as we know, on the very day of the murder two boys were in the Borden barn. I do believe that Lizzie was very fond of animals and no doubt she didn't like the idea of the pigeons dying. Even so, she did not make too much fuss. She seemed calm about the pigeons when she answered the questions at the Inquest. She knew the prosecution was trying to lay the motive of hatred of her father at her door, as well as exploring the number of family hatchets and axes in the barn, the barn she swore she was in when her father was killed. I'm a 'Lizzie dun it' person but that didn't work. I don't believe she killed the cat, either.

[irina]

A number of authors have tried to say the pigeon incident had something to do with driving Lizzie over the edge.

The family owned a farm and I suppose they all knew something about the production of meat. That Andrew processed the pigeons for the table makes sense but I will say again that birds are not plucked inside the house. They could be skinned. Pigeons need not be processed like chickens which are dipped in hot water to facilitate plucking. I do see something a bit sinister in Andrew basically displaying them inside, in front of Lizzie, that it was a show of power. I defer to Debbie about how abusers manage these things. For whatever reason this subject came up at trial. I could see it s a power play. Like Andrew telling Lizzie to shut up about the property transfer, or he would dispose of her pigeons. Plus I think it is interesting she was looking at/remembered looking at the pigeon house on her way to the barn. Since she likely didn't go to the barn for whatever reason, it is interesting that this was a detail she "remembered", invented or what. It shows me she had some deeper feelings about the pigeons than some would think.

Anthony, I lived in a small town in Oregon which had a lot of pigeons and people got tired of the mess. There was a horrible woman, a witch with a B, but that gives a bad name to witches with a B. She was downtown and a pigeon dumped right on her head. This woman was a town complainer in general and wrote many letters to the editor. She wrote blistering letters to the editor demanding destruction of all pigeons. Of course fairly soon the pigeons were all quietly poisoned. (Indeed there are few pigeons left anywhere at this time as the road department says pigeon poop rusts bridges and it appears there has been a great deal of poisoning.)

Anyway, the witch with a B got her way and was happy about it. Awhile afterwards her son got arrested for some really nasty child molesting and he became a registered sex offender. The same woman wrote multiple letters to the paper saying her son was innocent and didn't deserve it and people should be merciful! I am very soft hearted and can muster a level of sympathy for a wide range of people, but in this case I got a good laugh.

[Curryong]

These people ought to live in Australia and experience our large galahs and aggressive magpies! Then they'd have something to complain about! Couldn't Andrew's 'display' of the pigeons have something to do with the neighbourhood youth, as well? A display to them, I mean.

A couple of days ago I read something, and I'm sure it was in Rebello, I just have to find it. It was the memoir of a boy who lived in the neighbourhood of the Borden house. He said that he was deputed by his friends to go to the Bordens' door one day and ask whether they could possibly have some pears. Lizzie answered the (side) door. She was friendly and said 'Yes', but they had to be lying on the ground first.

So the boys went into the back garden and picked the pears from time to time. Soon, however, they got the idea that shaking the branches of the pear trees would bring more pears to the ground. This they did. When the boy knocked on the door again there were a lot of pears on the ground! The boy said that when she saw this Lizzie must have immediately guessed what they had done as her lips quivered and her eyes sparkled as if she was going to laugh. However, she gave them permission to continue to eat pears.

On other occasions when he knocked Bridget anwered and she seemed to be grumbly and harrassed. On one day the boys must have been making a noise and Andrew was home. He probably didn't know about the permission that had been given and he shouted at them to get out. The boy stated that afterwards Lizzie suggested that they be quieter. He said that on only one or two occasions did Lizzie refuse them permission, because 'the pears are not ripe'.

My point with this is, if Andrew, who hated intruders in his garden anyway, knew or suspected that Lizzie had been conniving at his precious pears being taken, might he also not have suspected that she knew about youths breaking into the barn after his pigeons? If so, he could have regarded the killing of the birds as a punishment for the neighbourhood youth and for her.

[irina]

Good suggestion, Curryong. I do think there is something threatening about the pigeon issue but perhaps not as serious as I originally suggested.

I have read the story about Lizzie and the pear trees and boys also. The reason to let the fruit fall is to keep the branches from being broken by picking the green fruit. One of my beloved old papers said Andrew in the morning would throw the pears "under the barn". I assumed that was to keep them away from thieves. Perhaps they were pears that were damaged though & needed cleaning up. I thought that was interesting about Lizzie and the pears.

[phineas]

I like that story about Lizzie, Curryong. If Andrew did indeed kill the pigeons in order to prevent them being stolen or messed with by neighborhood boys, it really says something odd about his makeup. That he would destroy his own property preventive-ly (even if it would be eaten; no morsel would go unused) speaks to something Draconian in his nature. It's a slash and burn mentality....we must destroy the village to save it, kind of thing. I'm beginning to wonder who wins the Borden prize for Crazy. I find Lizzie's use of the word 'tender' to describe the necks of the birds telling, though tender in that usage would mean raw or red, but it's a level of detail for someone who said she didn't hardly look at the birds. I think she did look. And I agree, I think they were presented to Lizzie as a demonstration of power over all things in the household, including her.

[irina]

I suppose we could put it in the context of the time. Instead of pigeons, say they were keeping chickens for the eggs. But neighborhood boys broke into the chicken house a couple times and took eggs. The chickens became more trouble than they were worth so they were turned into dinner. Those things happened and still do. Varmint raids the hen house till it's not worth the trouble and maybe you decide chicken dinner is the next step.

But these were pigeons. I'm not sure of the logistics of Andrew wringing their necks. I suppose he shut them into the pigeon house. I doubt they were overly tame. Wouldn't matter, if they were penned in. People eat pigeons but once past the point of squab a lot of cooking is needed. If the birds were a nuisance and simply exterminated then the bodies could have been left in the alley for a hungry cat or buried or something. That they were brought into the house I assume they were to be eaten. Or were they simply displayed and then discarded? We'll never know.

[debbiediablo]

I think the pigeons were pooping too much on the pears....

Really, I can see why Andrew wouldn't want neighborhood kids in his barn without permission anymore than people in the 21st century want neighborhood kids in their garages and swimming pools without permission. Squab is supposed to be very tasty (my mother-in-law made pigeon pie and I ate Something Else...she also made turtle soup which was the most disturbing meal I've ever encountered) so maybe he wanted a change-up on the menu...plus pigeons aren't exactly an endangered species. When I said they came in as a delivery for Bridget I didn't mean for her to clean them in the kitchen but she maybe did. Feathers aren't the issue as there aren't many...it's the possibility of lice. YouTube has an excellent video for survivalist chefs!

As for tender, we can look at that from the viewpoint of pigeon pity on Lizzie's part or perhaps she was comparing how easy it is to kill a pigeon versus a human.

[Curryong]

Turtle soup was an extremely popular meal in the early 19th century in England and the poor things were hunted to virtual extinction even then. What does it taste like? Never had it. There was trouble with the pigeons in Trafalgar Square, hundreds of them attracted by tourist sandwiches. They were becoming a real nuisance and I think there was some suggestion about trapping and eating them. However, as they gobbled up everything from discarded cornet icecreams, potato chips, candies and cigarette ends it was decided --better not!

I can imagine Bridget objecting to the lice!!

[Aamartin]

I went to a BBQ once and they serve grilled ground buffalo burgers instead of hamburger. I barely managed one bite.

Chicken and turkey is the only 'fowl' I will eat...

A great deal of it is perception.

I have never even heard of people eating pigeon.

[Curryong]

My son eats kangaroo and wallaby burgers on occasion, but I don't. That is in spite of the fact that roo numbers in outback Australia sometimes reach plague precautions. They infect waterholes and artesian dams and compete with flocks of sheep for pasture, so I am not sentimental enough to oppose culling. I just can't contemplete eating any though, especially as they are our national symbol.

[irina]

I'm one of those survivalist people so I have been known to cook a great many things. Pigeon is good but extremely tough. I don't eat a lot of meat since I am a conscientious objector. My basic position is that if I was prey I would rather go about my business and get shot than to be terrorized in a processing plant.

Turkeys are an interesting meat source. It has been said that the modern hybrid turkeys are bred to get huge fast and they have very short life spans. It is said the turkeys our president pardons every Thanksgiving actually don't live more than a couple years.

[taosjohn]

I have never even heard of people eating pigeon.

The passenger pigeon, once numbering in the billions in North America, was basically hunted to extinction as food.

Loss of habitat contributed, and they were hunted for the feathers as well, but they were regarded by many as the best of eating...

[irina]

Passenger pigeon was supposed to taste more like a dove. Doves are very different from pigeons. The railroad had a lot to do with the extinction of the passenger pigeon. There was a fascinating article about it in the 'Wall Street Journal' awhile back.

There was once a great deal of market hunting, such as ducks in Louisiana. The canvas back was over hunted this way and it remains fairly scarce today.

[debbiediablo]

Turtle soup was an extremely popular meal in the early 19th century in England and the poor things were hunted to virtual extinction even then. What does it taste like? Never had it. There was trouble with the pigeons in Trafalgar Square, hundreds of them attracted by tourist sandwiches. They were becoming a real nuisance and I think there was some suggestion about trapping and eating them. However, as they gobbled up everything from discarded cornet icecreams, potato chips, candies and cigarette ends it was decided --better not!

I can imagine Bridget objecting to the lice!!

CAUTION!I have no clue what it tastes like...the muscles continued to quiver as the heating process began, sort of like it was attempting to swim around the cauldron. One glance was the Alpha and the Omega of turtle soup for me. I think the carcass needs to be hung for awhile, maybe overnight, or frozen or diced or something before cooking. For somewhat similar reasons I refuse to choose my own lobster to eat.

[Curryong]

My aunt used to buy large live crabs, (we lived by the sea) boil up a large pan of water and then drop them in the boiling water and slam the lid down. They used, (naturally) to try and get out, but the lid remained on. It made me feel sick. However, I must confess, I quite like crabmeat.

I too am not a great meat eater and I think commercial farming is abhorrent. I would imagine that people in the 19th century were quite used to tough meat. I can't imagine mutton being a tender meat and more elderly pigeons (aside from squab) would be the same. Mutton was eaten widely in Australia and I can just imagine how butchers roughly chopped the parts up.

[twinsrwe]

I think the pigeons were pooping too much on the pears....

OMG, Debbie, this cracked me up!!! Those pears must have been quite tasty, coated with pigeon poop, and the contains from Andrew's slop-pail! YUCK!!!

[twinsrwe]

I went to a BBQ once and they serve grilled ground buffalo burgers instead of hamburger. I barely managed one bite. ....

Oh, Anthony, I love buffalo burgers! They do not contain as much fat as hamburger, but they taste a lot like beef.

[twinsrwe]

When I was a child, my mother served us rabbit and squirrel. The two together are very tasty, especially when made with dumplings. I’ve never eaten pigeon, but I have a great pigeon story to tell: My father had a pet pigeon that he trained to perch on his shoulder, and eat bird seeds out of his hand. My father also trained this pigeon to walk down his arm, and then off his hand onto a pipe that drew our well water up from the underground river. There was an opening in the pipe, where the pigeon would drink his fill of water, then he'd walk back up my father's arm and perch on his shoulder again. That pigeon went everywhere with my father. One day, after the milkman had picked up our milk and began driving up the driveway to our farm, the pigeon flew from my father's shoulder, and landed on top of the milk truck. It was quite a sight to see a grown man driving down the road after a milk truck with a pigeon on top of it! He did catch up to the milk truck and rescued the pigeon, when the milkman stopped at our next door neighbor’s farm to pick up their milk. The milkman couldn’t help himself, he just shook his head, and then cracked up!

[Aamartin]

I went to a BBQ once and they serve grilled ground buffalo burgers instead of hamburger. I barely managed one bite. ....

Oh, Anthony, I love buffalo burgers! They do not contain as much fat as hamburger, but they taste a lot like beef.

It was just the idea of it... I kept hearing 'oh give me a home................' in my head!!

[twinsrwe]

I went to a BBQ once and they serve grilled ground buffalo burgers instead of hamburger. I barely managed one bite. ....

Oh, Anthony, I love buffalo burgers! They do not contain as much fat as hamburger, but they taste a lot like beef.

It was just the idea of it... I kept hearing 'oh give me a home................' in my head!!

OMG, Anthony, that is hilarious! I'm sorry you had just a hard time eating the buffalo burger, but when I read your response to my post, I couldn't help myself, I burst out laughing! Isn't it crazy that things like that run through our heads, when we attempt to try a new food? When I was a child, there was one time that my mother fixed tongue for dinner. I just could not force myself to eat it - every fiber in my body rejected that meat. I didn't even have a cute little song running through my head, it was more of a gagging sensation that occurred. YUCK!

[irina]

As a young person I rejected lamb (as in Mary had a little one) and duckling (like Hans Christian Andersen wrote about). As an adult I know both animals are actually adults when served. Like I said I eat very little meat. One of the government guidelines I have no problem heeding is a serving of meat no bigger than the size of a deck of cards. In Native American traditions and myth it is said that certain animals willingly give up their spirits so that humans can eat. Don't know. I don't like to kill things. (Although oysters and clams don't seem to have well developed personalities and they aren't cuddly.)

[Aamartin]

As a young person I rejected lamb (as in Mary had a little one) and duckling (like Hans Christian Andersen wrote about). As an adult I know both animals are actually adults when served. Like I said I eat very little meat. One of the government guidelines I have no problem heeding is a serving of meat no bigger than the size of a deck of cards. In Native American traditions and myth it is said that certain animals willingly give up their spirits so that humans can eat. Don't know. I don't like to kill things. (Although oysters and clams don't seem to have well developed personalities and they aren't cuddly.)

I cannot actively kill anything other that bugs or flies. In the past I could set a mouse trap but was repulsed with the results. Now I use live ones and release them. I don't get how people can shoot stray cats or dogs, etc-- hell, to be honest, I can't see how people can shoot a gun! I have no desire to even touch one.