Debunking the sexual component

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Aamartin
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Debunking the sexual component

Post by Aamartin »

We have a thread discussing the possibility of sexual abuse in the house. I would like to have a thread stating the reasons why it might not be a factor... I believe Bobo gave permission to share his PM as long as it is a direct quote-- so I will do so. If this is not appropriate Bobo, please PM me and I will remove it as soon as I see your request.
The following is what I have learned from the Grein family the last 8 yrs. Bear in mind, that I have over 1100 pages of correspondence with this family. It comes from a 84 yr. old man, whose 3x great aunt was Lativia Grein, Mary Greins sister in law. His 61 yr. old niece was of great help.

At the time of Mary Grein's death, in 1927, the "leave now" letter was found in a family Bible. It was in an envelope with no stamp or postage marks. On the envelope were the words " to my friend mary sarah welch." It was found by Lativia Grein. I had the privilege of seeing the original copy of this letter in 2010.

To sum things up: When Mary died in 1927, her belongings were given to her sister in law Lativia Grein. When the letter was found, in the Bible by Lativa, page 2 (now missing) WAS WITH THE LETTER. FAMILY MEMBERS WHO READ THE LETTER MAYED THEIR OWN HAND WRITTEN COPIES! I have photo copies of 3 letters in my possession. It is said that page 2 went into detail of how Andrew abused his own daughters and the maids. One copied letter reads "Andrew has his way with the ladies of the house" later it reads "bad enough servants but on daughters to." Family lore says that Lativa destroyed page 2.

When questioned as to why Lativia didn't destroy the ENTIRE letter??.... the elder Grein replied... " Andrew Borden was a monster, Aunt Lativia, did not want to shame the family any longer, we knew what happened, with the letter and family, the truth is told."

Six months ago, the niece, joined the forum... for reasons I won't go into, she never posted and left.

I asked the elder Grein, who killed the Bordens?..... His reply was "Who cares??? The Bastards dead." The animosity between the Bordens and Greins are GREAT.

For me, the reasons I do not think a sexual aspect was present in the home are:

1)- The girls were both sent away for extended periods of time. Emma to school and Lizzie to Europe. Where they might have talked! I think Emma was sent away in order to try and patch things up between Abby and Lizzie. I believe Emma was stoking the hate Lizzie felt for Abby and was generally unkind to Abby. Hence-- bye bye. Lizzie's Europe trip might have been for similar reasons. To help her attitude. It seems the opposite occurred in both cases!

2)- If Bridget had known-- no raises would have kept her there, despite how kind Abby was to her! Abby's kindness towards her points to a woman who was decent and had love and compassion to offer others. Not a 'mean old thing' as Lizzie allegedly stated. Likewise, had Bridget been a victim-- or other maids, SOMETHING about it would have leaked out.

3)- Andrew seemed to derive his pleasure from making money and controlling it. He could have been abusive in this way. Holding it over the girls' heads. He seems to be a peculiar sort. People didn't like him.

4)- If he had pedophile urges, once the girls passed puberty he would have lost interest-- and then, there was Abby. She never conceived. She was young enough to have done so-- as to the idea that she was morbidly obese and unable to have children-- I don't think her weight played any part in fertility. Go anywhere today-- and you will see women her size-- all over! Looking at photos of a younger Abby show me a normal sized women. She may have gained weight but she was never a candidate for the the biggest loser.

5)- People talk about Lizzie giving Andrew her ring-- but I do not believe there is any recorded testimony as such. I concede, I might be incorrect.

More to come!
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MysteryReader
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Re: Debunking the sexual component

Post by MysteryReader »

Good points, Anthony.

I don't know what to make of things exactly. All I can say with certainty is that the murderers were over kill. And to me, (as a criminal justice student) points to passion, rage, and hatred. WHO? Don't have a clue. WHY? We can speculate all day until the cows come home. I'm sorry I brought up the incest/rape theory. To me, it was (and is) plausible, but I'm sorry. :oops:
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Curryong
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Re: Debunking the sexual component

Post by Curryong »

Don't worry MysteryReader! We all have our views on here and are free to express them. What I was objecting to in the other thread was that this theory, and it is just a theory, seemed to be becoming the main narrative of the board since BOBO's unveiling of the Grein correspondence. I am not implying, with this statement, any criticism of BOBO at all! He worked very hard to get those letters and it has certainly livened things up!

I have already stated in many posts why I think the incest theory is unproven and speculative. The set-up in the Borden household was a strange and secretive one, but this does not directly point to incest or abuse. Anthony makes some good points.

(1) I think the trip to Europe was by all accounts a 30th birthday present to Lizzie. Her distant relative Anna Borden was going to Europe and I think the whole thing coincided. I don't believe it was a pay-off in any way.

The trip lasted for 19 weeks, a period of time in which Lizzie could have confided in anyone of the ladies travelling with her. Also, although Emma didn't go to Europe, she was going to spend the summer in Fairhaven with her friends the Brownells. That would have been a matter of months.

(2) I totally agree with Anthony's point here. In 122 years something would have crept out into gossip, into the general community of Fall River. There were other maids over the years, most of them Irish Roman Catholic, probably. Did none of them say ANYTHING to anybody. No confiding in their priest after Andrew tried something the first time?

(3) We know little about Emma's attitudes to money. We do know that both girls had stood up to Andrew in the matter of property. We also know that money was extremely important in the Borden household. It dominated their lives, the making of it by Andrew and the disposing of it by him. He kept his wife and both daughters on short reins moneywise and we have hints all through the Borden story that 'the girls', primarily Lizzie, were anxious about the disposal of Andrew's estate. Lizzie stated that she didn't think that they (she and Emma) would be left anything. I don't think that's true. I think that they knew they would be left something, that they would be left comfortably off but that it might be in the form of a trust fund. In that case they would still have to be dealing with Abby, who would be wealthy, with 'her' money going away from them and into Gray and Whitehead pockets. I believe both girls loathed that prospect.

(4) We know little about Andrew and Abby's marital relationship. They seemed to their neighbours to be happy enough. Abby complained (once) about Andrew not giving her a generous enough allowance. Money again! Abby seems to have been regarded by everyone as a kindhearted and pleasant individual. By everyone but her stepdaughters who believed (money, again) that she had a great influence over their father. A wife having influence over her husband? Well, blow me down!

The things that people who visited the Bordens noticed were both a distinct lack of hospitality in the matter of food and drink and Lizzie's behaviour towards Abby's family members in treating them as if they weren't there. This was replicated later in life in shops when any Whiteheads were present. Lizzie was noted to be of sulky and moping temperament. She may have been depressed at her life, and no wonder! Perhaps there was clinical depression.

Emma was also probably in her ear constantly about Abby and their father. Their hatred of Abby ran deep. None of us grew up in a household like the Bordens (I hope) where money was all-important, all encompassing. It even interfered at Church when Andrew refused to pay extra fees. Money was a replacement for God. I do believe that the Swansea farms were going to be transferred, that the girls had got to know about it, perhaps through Uncle John being a blabbermouth, and something was said that morning between Lizzie and Abby in the guest room. We know enough about how Lizzie felt about Abby and her influence (in Lizzie's mind) over Andrew and the all-important matter of his money, to explain that over-kill without incest coming into the picture.
Last edited by Curryong on Fri Nov 14, 2014 12:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Aamartin
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Re: Debunking the sexual component

Post by Aamartin »

MysteryReader wrote:Good points, Anthony.

I don't know what to make of things exactly. All I can say with certainty is that the murderers were over kill. And to me, (as a criminal justice student) points to passion, rage, and hatred. WHO? Don't have a clue. WHY? We can speculate all day until the cows come home. I'm sorry I brought up the incest/rape theory. To me, it was (and is) plausible, but I'm sorry. :oops:
Don't be sorry at all!!! With recent disclosures that thread needing to be brought up. Honestly, it has made me rethink the theory more than any other single thing since my interest in Lizzie began
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irina
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Re: Debunking the sexual component

Post by irina »

I suppose this will be on and off topic. The best any of us can do is explore every avenue and know when to shelve it till further proof comes up. Whether it is incest, inheritance, an intruder, Uncle John, Lizzie, all of it can only go so far and then it needs to have a rest.

I don't go for the incest idea because I just don't feel it is correct. If Andrew messed with the maids I think he would have continued into old age. If so I think Bridget would have left. Even if due to age he had to slow down his activities I would suspect a dirty old man would grab various female parts or something. And I think Bridget would have left or eventually said something in Lizzie's defense. If she didn't say something explicit I think she would have hinted at it.

My personal ethics are to be very careful when discussing those who once lived.
Is all we see or seem but a dream within a dream. ~Edgar Allan Poe
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debbiediablo
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Re: Debunking the sexual component

Post by debbiediablo »

I'm totally capable arguing all sides of almost anything. My Dad talked me out of going to law school which was likely a good thing as I'd have taken every case based on my personal sense of justice and not on legal merit. I'd now be living in a cardboard box in the parking lot of the ACLU.

That said, I'm trying to find something not already mentioned in the threads, so maybe look to Andrew's Quaker heritage which might also have explained his frugality, his propensity for simple living and his dislike for churches seeking money.

Totally agree: this discussion has brought more passion to LAB than I've seen in the past almost-year. Kudos to BOBO and Mystery Reader and taosjohn for stirring the pot.
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Re: Debunking the sexual component

Post by Curryong »

Oh, come on, deb, what about Factflouncer's meltdown? That was a bit of passion and aggro, wasn't it? AND she was never seen or heard of again!
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Re: Debunking the sexual component

Post by debbiediablo »

Who? :smiliecolors: :smiliecolors: :smiliecolors: :smiliecolors: :smiliecolors: :smiliecolors: :smiliecolors: :smiliecolors:
DebbieDiablo

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Re: Debunking the sexual component

Post by Curryong »

You know who, blew her stack over pant suits. I still have a giggle over it!
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MysteryReader
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Re: Debunking the sexual component

Post by MysteryReader »

Curryong wrote:You know who, blew her stack over pant suits. I still have a giggle over it!


:lol:
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Re: Debunking the sexual component

Post by debbiediablo »

The poster who was Finder of Fact,
Possessed knowledge but minimal tact.
She got in snit,
Flounced off in a fit.
Oh drama!! Should she ever come bact.
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Re: Debunking the sexual component

Post by Curryong »

Yet another of your wonderful ditties! :grin: :grin:
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