The Ring Lizzie Gave To Andrew.

[Allen]

I was thinking a little about this ring that Lizzie presented to Andrew. To me it seems so out of character for her to present him with such a gift. It is claimed he wore it right up until his death, and was possibly buried with it still on his pinky finger. My thought was, if she had one, what happened to Sarah's wedding band after her death? Did it go to one of the girls as a keepsake? Or for them to use if they ever married? Was she bured with it? If her ring was given to the girls, maybe Lizzie asked Andrew to wear this ring in rememberance of her mother. The idea seems a little bit of a reach I know. But she could have done it to weedle Abby a bit. So that every time Abby saw that ring she was reminded she was the second and less favored Mrs. Borden. Does this seem like a plausible possiblity to anyone else?

[xyjw]

I've always wondered about that ring too. It must have had some significance since it is a documented part of the Borden story/case. It does seem like Lizzie had an ulterior motive aimed at Abby. It would be interesting to find out what happened to Sarah's wedding ring.

[augusta]

That is something to ponder. I thought, tho, that Lizzie only turned against Abby in about 1887, five years before the murders, because of the half a house Andrew gave to Abby.

They say it was Lizzie's high school ring, but I don't remember reading just when Lizzie gave it to Andrew. It doesn't mean anything, but I'm thinking maybe one year Lizzie didn't have a gift to give her father so gave him her most prized possession.

I think if it made Abby mad, he wouldn't have kept wearing it all the time. Emma was the one who disliked Abby the most and seemingly from the beginning. I don't think Emma swung her over to her side until that property deal.

Yes, it would be real interesting to know what happened to Abby's wedding ring. I don't think anyone in their right mind would let the girls take it. I vote for she was probably buried with it, or it went to her half-sister, Bertie.

It would be interesting to know if Andrew even had a wedding ring. I keep remembering a line from the movie when they questioned Emma about Lizzie's ring given to Andrew. They ask her if that was the only piece of jewelry Andrew was either buried with or ever wore, and Emma said like "The only (something)." I hate getting older and forgetting stuff.

[DJ]

Although, from our perspective, we may find such a gesture "Freudian-ly" icky, remember the Victorians were of a much-more sentimental nature, predating the bandying about of Electra Complexes.

Also, the gesture handily predates the time Lizzie started calling Abby "Mrs. Borden," so I find it difficult to believe that the gift of the ring was a slight to Abby.

As Lizzie's prospects for marriage dimmed and her shell hardened, with an ever-more intense focus on her Father's fortune (and keeping Abby away from it), her love for Andrew evidently swayed according to how much was being/would be dispensed to her.

Also, I think much was made of the ring in order to forward Lizzie's public-relations, if you will. That is, how could she be smashing her Father's skull with this token of love on his little finger?

Andrew may have come to wear the ring to remind Lizzie of the affection that she once, apparently, gave freely.

[Allen]

Lizzie Borden, Past & Present - Leonard Rebello page 8.

"Mr. Horace Benson, who knew the Borden family and had Lizzie as a student said, "...as a pupil she was an average scholar, neither being execeptionally smart nor noticeably dull. She was subject to varying moods, and was never fond of her stepmother. She had no hesitation in talking about her, and in many ways, showed her dislike of her father's second wife.

While living next door to the Bordens, he became aquainted with Abby Borden and "knew her as a kindly hearted, lovable woman, who tried, but ineffectually to win the love of the stepdaughters. Still, the household was far from being an unhappy one."

I think Lizzie never liked Abby. I think the half house was the last straw.

[DJ]

I really and truly pity Abby, then, if she struggled with Lizzie from teen years onward. Decades of unpleasantness. I couldn't have stood it.

No wonder Lizzie was Suspect Numero Uno.

Which gives me all the more reason to think Emma knew what Lizzie was planning. Emma knew she'd better get out of town, or else she'd be right up there with Lizzie as a suspect.

[NancyDrew]

Again, not knowing what sort of customs were considered normal at the time, in that family, or in the strata society with which the Bordens belonged (or at least Lizzie aspired) I find the "ring" gift strange.

Did men not wear wedding rings? Was it normal for a girl to give her high school ring to her own father? In my family, it would be weird. Andrew would have to have the ring sized to fit him, I would think. I wonder who performed this task, and if that person had any comment about the gift itself.

Rings have been traditionally given between two people as a sign of intimacy...the circle representing the continuity of the love between them.

I'm being lazy, and should have done some research about whether or not this was something young girl's did then.

There is a modern movement where girl's pledge--to their fathers--to remain virgins until they marry. I'm uncomfortable with this...my own sexuality was not something my father would EVER think of discussing me with. My mother? Partly...as she explained the facts of life to me, and she also told me (back in 1972) that good girls "waited until marriage." When, in my own case, this didn't occur (I hope I'm not overstepping the bounds of polite conversation here) I certainly didn't inform them.

I wish I knew on what occasion Lizzie gave the ring to her father. Emma testified that the gift occured "10--15 years ago"..I wonder why she said that, because if Lizzie received it upon graduation, and then gave it directly gave it to her father, wouldn't that date have stood out in Emma's mind. She would then answer the question of when the exchange took place with "My sister gave my father the ring right after she graduated high school." But she didn't say that...she intimated that it took place possibly years AFTER. Was it at Christmas? His birthday? Perhaps the anniversary of her mother's death? Curious.

[Mara]

Is it possible that Lizzie did NOT give Andrew that ring, but that Borden claimed it for himself, for some reason that might explain a bit of Lizzie's hatred of him (if such there was)? We are told that Lizzie was a middling student. Perhaps Andrew didn't feel Lizzie had earned the right to sport her high school ring with pride, and he withheld it. Emma might have concocted the pleasantry of her sister having given the ring to their father as a way of shoring up the idea that he was a much-loved figure in Lizzie's life. Borden seemed to have been given to mean little tricks and trials and had plenty of enemies for being a "sharp dealer." I can see him doing something that small, and I can see Lizzie resenting it at a very deep level. She fancied herself quite a lady, and being constantly reminded by her father that she was "average" would have rankled.

[NancyDrew]

Actually, now that I remember it, Lizzie never graduated high school. What kind of ring was this?

[goddessoftheclassroom]

I really hate the idea of the "incest theory," but it does account for several otherwise inexplicable things, including the ring.

[mbhenty]

Yes:

The only description given about the ring is that it was "gold". We know nothing else. Just what Emma testified to in court, that Lizzie had given the ring to her father 10 or 15 years previous, and that Andrew Borden always wore it, and that it was the only jewelry he wore.

This makes Lizzie in her early twenties or late teens when she had given it to her father.

There is no proof that Lizzie completed high school. In any event, the tradition of the high school ring did not make it's introduction into history until the early 20th century. If I am not mistaken, the commemoration of years spent in high school were celebrated with a lapel pin.

[Mara]

Resurrecting this thread because we've been talking about "the ring" with new understanding of its possible provenance. I see I made a statement last year around this time in which I accepted the "high school ring" definition that we now understand to be incorrect.

What hits me now, though, is that Andrew might have claimed the ring from Lizzie as payback for something he had reason to believe she took from him, or from Abby. Emma may or may not have known about this nasty little exchange. Any thoughts about that?

[Catbooks]

well, lizzie would have been somewhere between 17-22 when this occurred. while probably the borden household was never a poster child for the happy family, it appears to have not been so bad during that period.

in thinking about it, you now have me wondering why i tend to believe there was actual love between andrew and lizzie. anything else, aside from the ring story?? there was her grand tour of europe, although that may have been about something else. he gave lizzie and emma their grandfather's house, but that was to try to buy back some peace back in the house. (i'm sure also as a genuine gesture to his two daughters, but probably mainly peace.)

seems like i recall others, aside from emma, indicating they had real fondness between them, but hang if i can think of any examples!

[irina]

I made an earlier reply on our new thread but it got lost so I'll add on here where there has been previous discussion of the ring.

I aksed if the provenance of the ring could be deduced. Could Lizzie have inherited a ring from a family member? Might it not have been to her taste or been overly masculine in style? Might she have given the ring to her father because it was something from the family, more appropriate for him than her?

Like mentioned on the newest thread, I never thought class rings were in fashion in Lizzie's day but I have no information to say they didn't exist. Could a relative have given Lizzie a ring upon graduation, except she didn't graduate? Was the ring tied to education someway? If not why would Emma say it was?

[Curryong]

It's quoted in Rebello that after leaving High School without graduating Lizzie 'devoted herself to music for a while.' Could Andrew have paid for more piano lessons or music composition lessons and she gave him the ring (whether inherited and worn by her or not) for his birthday, in gratitude?

The trouble is, we don't know anything about the ring, really. It was introduced into the trial by the defence to show the affection between Lizzie and her father and it seems to have marked something, but we don't know what. It's all a bit vague. Victoria Lincoln's '15 years ago' could mean Lizzie was a girl of 17 when she gifted the ring. (Plus we know Lincoln was wrong when she called it a High School ring.) It remains a mystery.

[twinsrwe]

Well, here is a real kicker:

On page 5 of The Trial of Lizzie Borden, by Edmund Pearson, he claims:

"Mr. Borden, at one time, had kept a horse and buggy---the contemporary equivalent of a Ford car---and he had presented at least one of his daughters (the younger) with a diamond ring and a sealskin coat or cape . . . "

So, Andrew gave Lizzie a diamond ring, and Lizzie gave him a gold ring. It really makes me wonder just what kind of a relationship Andrew and Lizzie had!!! Sounds like it was a bit more than just a father/daughter relationship, doesn't it?

[irina]

For some reason my comments aren't posting...

It makes more sense to me if Lizzie had a diamond ring from Andrew, that it would have been something from Lizzie's mother. Perhaps Lizzie had a strong idea that if her 'real' mother had survived, Lizzie's life would have been better or happier or something. There are any number of true crime stories about teens and young adults today who fantasize that if their parents hadn't gotten divorced life would be wonderful. They idolize the parent not in the home. In Lizzie's day parents died all too frequently.

I think I lost 3 posts today so don't know where I am... I found some discussion forum where someone commented that Andrew gave Lizzie a diamond ring, Lizzie at some point gave it back, Andrew gave it back to her and Lizzie gave it back to him within a couple years of the murder. I didn't pay much attention to this comment but then I came back here and a diamond ring has been mentioned. I went to the old newspapers but that site isn't working very good. Tyhere is a big snow storm coming in & nothing is working very good.

I sure wonder if (if there was a DIAMOND ring), it could have been a ring that belonged to Sarah, that was given to Lizzie to make her feel better or to comfort her. I could see a bit of an inside thing between Andrew and Lizzie, kind of behind Abby's back, like a private joke.

[Curryong]

There often weren't engagement rings as we know them today at the time Andrew and Sarah married, and of course Andrew didn't have that much money then. However, I'm wondering whether perhaps there was a betrothal ring of some sort that was left to Emma (as the elder daughter) and an everyday gold ring that was left to Lizzie, which she later gave to her father. I can't see Sarah festooning herself with jewellery but she might have had a couple of rings that were left in that way.

I can believe that Lizzie received a diamond ring. As an adult she adored jewellery, especially rings. After the murders she bought a lot, as we can tell by the pieces left to friends in her will. There needn't necessarily be anything sinister about it. It could have been a 21st birthday gift from her father. An unusual choice perhaps, but then they were an unusual family.

[MysteryReader]

I thumbed ahead in the book (Parallel Lives) and there was a blurb about Lizzie giving a little boy a gold ring (he was the child of her friend, Minnie, I think).

[Curryong]

Yes, Lizzie left quite a bit of jewellery to friends and others. She seems to have been especially fond of rings. Perhaps she was proud of her shapely white hands or something.

Admittedly, the high-collared fashions of her youth wouldn't have lent themselves to necklaces, though people did wear very fine long chains with pearls or tiny diamonds on them. Same with earrings. If you have a collar up to your chin it doesn't really show ear decorations off to advantage.

[irina]

As I recall the diamond for wedding and engagement rings was pushed by de Beers in the last century. Diamonds aren't as rare as we think they are so the market is kept artificially high then advertised as rare and expensive.

I just don't think of diamonds being very common among regular folks in Lizzie's day. Maybe Lizzie especially liked them like I like emeralds. My birthstone is sapphire but I prefer emeralds. I still lean heavily to the idea the ring was something from the family.