Lizzie's bedroom

MysteryReader · Post by **MysteryReader** » Tue Dec 30, 2014 4:05 pm

There is a light description (there isn't a lot here) of the inside of the Borden house by Mrs. Percy (correspondent of the New York Herald) and she points out an interesting fact:

"...the spread and pillows of spotless white...changed to a pale blue embroidered counterpane... the writer questioned: How could Lizzie Borden have come into the dainty place and removed the traces of such fearful work without marring all the delicate purity of everything with what she had contact? Why, the washstand even is in a recess veiled by a silken curtain. A soiled finger pushing it aside would leave a mark and there is none."

Now, I don't know the date of her visit to the house but the accompanying pictures have the carpet cut out in the areas where the murders took place. I don't know if the carpet has been replaced or left like it was.

But I do have a question- if it was Lizzie as the murderer or someone else, how would they leave/get out without leaving a mark somewhere in the house?

Later, I'll post a piece that seems to "prove" that Andrew wasn't a tightwad regarding some "comforts" of the house such as electricity and water.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:35 pm

I have always wanted to write a book about what we know about the Borden Crime, what the truth is, what has been written in books, what people think they know, and what was set down in print/News.

Take this reporter you talk about MysteryReader, calling Lizzie's bedroom a "dainty place." Lizzies bedroom was not "dainty." It was a good size. Perhaps not the size of today's "McMansions" people seem to think they need, but it was not tight. Now Emma's room was tight and small. Very small—actually part of one room which was split in two.

Another matter is the fact that the old man was not that unkind or a skinflint like history has described him.

I have always contended that he was "old world frugal." Perhaps he was tight and overly thrifty and careful. But not the monkish or miserly fool that newspapers and books have made him out to be.

We must remember that he did send Emma to college when such practice was rare for most women in old industrial towns. And he installed a new central heating system when the technology was quite new. Cast Iron radiator, or central heating was becoming common in public buildings and businesses in the 1890s, but quite new for residential heating.

And there are other reasons that prove that old man Borden was not a skinflint. If you want to see/read about a skinflint, read about Hetty Green, the witch of Wall Street. She had enough money to purchase 10 or 20 Andrew Bordens, and she was dangerously Cheap.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:47 pm

Oh yes! And we must not forget the building he gave Emma and Lizzie on Ferry Street.

By today's standards it was like giving them (est.) 200,000 dollars.

Then he purchased it back from them for market value.

And giving Lizzie a 4 month vacation in Europe. By today's value that has to be worth 15 to 20,000 dollars.

MysteryReader · Post by **MysteryReader** » Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:55 pm

Hey Mbhenty! I haven't seen you in a bit. Yes, I am thinking it was the smaller room that Lizzie had at once upon a time (I'll go back and look). I do have proof that Andrew wasn't such a skinflint.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Tue Dec 30, 2014 6:32 pm

We don't know whether the description of Lizzie's bedroom with all its dainty things was a flight of imagination by this particular woman journalist. Emma remained at no 92 after she got home on the murder day to the day Lizzie was released nearly a year later. John Morse and two servants were also in residence for months.

I can't imagine Emma giving a woman journalist permission to wander through her home in order to write about the furnishings, especially after the mutilations to the interior caused by the police, who took away pieces of plaster, carpet etc

. She may have been smuggled in by the police but I don't think so. Why allow a reporter to see what the Borden servant hadn't been allowed to in her years of employment, the family bedrooms?

I don't think Andrew was a miserly skinflint as has sometimes been portrayed, but I think that (perhaps because of his family's Quaker background) he was very much a 'no frills' sort of person. For better or for worse, the family were not living the life that a wealthy man's family usually lived in those days.

Therefore there were oil lamps in the home instead of gaslight, no bathroom, no WC on the upper floors, no buggy so the family could get about a bit in bad weather, no telephone for convenience, no modern cooking stove for Bridget. Andrew could well have afforded those things without making a dint in his large fortune.

Lizzie was persuaded into the larger bedroom by Emma, after Lizzie's long trip to Europe (a really generous gift from Andrew.) She may have felt a bit flat after such an exciting holiday and Emma tried to cheer her sister up.

Mb, when did Emma go to college for further education as a young woman? I can't ever remember reading such a thing. I know Emma went away to school for a while after Abby and Andrew married. She was then a young teenager and I've always thought that Abby wanted some time to establish a relationship with young Lizzie.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Tue Dec 30, 2014 8:27 pm

Yes Curryong

Emma attended Wheaton College in Norton, Massachusetts, just about 30 miles from her home. At the time the college was considered a Seminary or finishing school which prepared young women for life as a desirable lady, or for further education in formal college, which was given by Wheaton. In speaking to the staff at Wheaton they made clear the fact that they were always considered a college and that Emma Borden took a full complementary college level work load.

Emma attended Wheaton between April of 1867 and July of 68. She was around 17 years old. She never finished her tenure.

I have always wanted to do some research of Emma's time in school in Fall River. Not sure how much of the old Fall River High School records exist. But we can only assume that she did finish high school if she attended Wheaton College.

We do have enough proof that Lizzie did not. As a matter of fact, many have written about Lizzie giving her father her school ring, when the truth is that, there was no such thing as a school rings at the time.

MysteryReader · Post by **MysteryReader** » Tue Dec 30, 2014 8:30 pm

Okay, Percy visited the house once upon a time and that was her description of it. The pictures, were the ones submitted as Trial Exhibits (I'm sorry, mis-read that they were part of her article

)

On page 151, she says this about Lizzie's room "The room had formerly been occupied by Emma, with Lizzie sleeping in the smaller room, which opens from it, to the north; this unusual sleeping arrangement necessitated that the room's occupant pass through the larger chamber to enter the smaller."

Okay, Andrew and his being or not being a skinflint- he did have a central heating system (most still had coal stoves). People could get lighting inside their homes if
they fell within range of the pipe that was already laid. "Electric lighting was established in 1883...but by 1890, more equipment was needed to satisfy the city's growing demands; two more alternating current machines were installed in sections of Fall River but not until 1894 & 1895." (p.145).

Kerosene was predominately used because gasoline back then wasn't manufactured to have the scent it does now so it was considered dangerous.

Andrew was one of the firsts to get city water pumped into his business and his home. They had 2 spigots (which cost more money than one): 1 in the barn and 1 in the water closet, in the cellar/basement. Here's something I found interesting- "They had a water closet that ran on city water but chamber pots and slop pails were used as a routine. ...an octogenarian in Fall River recalled that her grandmother, a renowned late 19th century beauty, insisted on using a chamber pot, which nestled securely into an indention in her mattress, well into the 1920s, even though the bathroom was only across the hall."

I remember one babysitter I had used a chamber pot and she had an outhouse out back (don't get me started on those!). Looking back, I think her small house was built without a bathroom...

MysteryReader · Post by **MysteryReader** » Tue Dec 30, 2014 8:36 pm

mbhenty wrote:Yes Curryong

Emma attended Wheaton College in Norton, Massachusetts, just about 30 miles from her home. At the time the college was considered a Seminary or finishing school which prepared young women for life as a desirable lady, or for further education in formal college, which was given by Wheaton. In speaking to the staff at Wheaton they made clear the fact that they were always considered a college and that Emma Borden took a full complementary college level work load.

Emma attended Wheaton between April of 1867 and July of 68. She was around 17 years old. She never finished her tenure.

I have always wanted to do some research of Emma's time in school in Fall River. Not sure how much of the old Fall River High School records exist. But we can only assume that she did finish high school if she attended Wheaton College.

Mbhenty- I'm reading Parallel Lives and it does give a touch on Emma's education. The book is derived from personal materials from all over. Don't know how true a lot of it is.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Tue Dec 30, 2014 8:39 pm

There's a couple of excellent articles in The Hatchet: Journal of Lizzie Borden Studies, Vol. 4 #3 about Emma's time in Wheaton College along with her classes and marks.

MysteryReader · Post by **MysteryReader** » Tue Dec 30, 2014 8:43 pm

That would be a great read, Mb! Can I get a copy, where and how much would it cost me? Please...

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Tue Dec 30, 2014 8:50 pm

Anything you read in Parallel Lives is true.

It's not like reading Kent, or Sullivan or Lincoln or Radin, De mille, Brown, etc. Michael Martin and Dennis are the authorities of Lizzie Borden Studies. No one know's the case better. They have the privilege of being in touch with Borden family members and friends all over the country. These people confide in the Historical Society because they know the staff will respect due diligence when it comes to telling the truth and getting the facts right. If it's in Parallel Lives, it has been likely researched and verified before it was placed in the there.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Tue Dec 30, 2014 8:57 pm

Yes Mystery:

Go to Hatchetonlone.com

Then click on upper portion where it says "Hatchet Store" There you will find a way to order a downloadable copy. Or you can purchase all 30 copies of the Hatchet Journal on DVD and it will be mailed to you.

If you want a hard/copy in your hand, you can order one through Amazon.

MysteryReader · Post by **MysteryReader** » Tue Dec 30, 2014 9:01 pm

Good to know that it's true!

I'll check out the store or Amazon.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Tue Dec 30, 2014 9:05 pm

Good time to ring my own Bell.

Ding, ding:

In the issue I posted above, there is also an extensive article which I wrote on Spencer Borden and his estate of Interlachen.

He was a distant relative of Lizzie.

Ding, ding....

MysteryReader · Post by **MysteryReader** » Tue Dec 30, 2014 9:07 pm

mbhenty wrote:Good time to ring my own Bell.

Ding, ding:

In the issue I posted above, there is also an extensive article which I wrote on Spencer Borden and his estate of Interlachen.

He was a distant relative of Lizzie.

Ding, ding....

Good! I did see the title of the article with his name on it. I was surprised in my reading so far that there was a lot of inter-marrying going on

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Tue Dec 30, 2014 9:19 pm

Yes, Mystery:

If you are reading Parallel Lives, you can educate yourself a little on Spencer Borden by going to pages 464 and 767. There you will see the Spencer Borden Estate and his daughter riding one of his famous Arabians. Spencer Borden was an expert breeder of Arabian horses and is still respected today as one. He published like 3 or 4 books about Arabians and they are sort after, even today.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Tue Dec 30, 2014 9:30 pm

For anyone interested in purchasing The Hatchet Magazine, a couple of facts.

The Hatchet, A Journal A Journal of Lizzie Borden Studies is no longer being published. But all issues are available for purchase.

Instead there is another called The Literary Hatchet, which is a compendium of Poetry and Short Stories and having nothing to do with Lizzie Borden, and containing almost no Borden material.

Both Magazines, including the Journal and the Literary, are published by Pear Tree Press and Edited by Stefani Koorey.

If you like reading poetry, short stories, novels, etc. Check it out. Below is the latest issue just out this week.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Tue Dec 30, 2014 9:33 pm

I found this on the Borden house in Rebello, pages 109-110 (Highlighting is mine):

"Crime Scene"

"The Borden House"

"A Search of the Premises," Fall River Evening News, Monday, August 8, 1892: 1.

"On Saturday afternoon, 3:15 p.m., Marshal Hilliard, accompanied by several patrolmen, searched the Borden home. The search began in the attic and they worked their way down to the first floor. The search ended at 6:30 p.m.

The attic contained four rooms and an open area into which the stairway extends. The two rooms in the rear were found to be scantily furnished. One of them was occupied by the servant, Bridget Sullivan, whose personal effects were about all contained in a small trunk. The lid was quickly raised and the contents inspected. It contained only clothing and a few mementoes treasured by the owner, as might be judged by the careful manner in which they were preserved. A package of letters, a few photographs, a box, a little jewelry and other effects dear to the feminine heart were there, but nothing more. The bed was carefully inspected, the mattress shaken up and pounded, the adjoining closet searched in vain. All that met the searchers gaze were packages and boxes of heavy clothing stored for the summer, comforters for the beds and similar articles.

The search continued to the second furnished room, which contained a painted bed. The bed had the appearance of not having been used for some time. ... On the front facing Second Street, at the northern corner, is the guest chamber which was where the murder of Mrs. Borden took place and where Mr. Morse slept on the night preceding the murder. The room is large, with windows on two sides, and is handsomely papered. The windows are adorned with lace draperies. The furniture is heavy set of black walnut ...

The next room entered was Miss Lizzie's chamber, which is in the middle of the house, with windows on the south side. The walls were covered with rich, dark paper, which was relieved by handsome red portieres at the doors. The windows were draped with taste and the furniture was neatly arranged. There was a narrow bed for one person, which was covered with a spread and pillows of spotless white. Not a wrinkle was in the coverlet and it seemed, like everything else in the apartment, to reflect the precise and trim character of its occupant. Easy chairs and rockers around, a few choice engravings on the wall, a well-stocked bookcase and photographs secured in foreign travel were visible. The dressing case, commode and closet were in turn examined by the officers. Every dress Lizzie possessed, every skirt, wrapper, and piece of underclothing was rigorously scrutinized. On one of the skirts a blood stain was found. It was the only discovery in the room.

Opening out of this chamber to the south is a small room, presumably used by the sisters as a study, and it next demanded the attention of the police. There was another single bed here, presumably occupied by Miss Emma, and a desk, with easy chairs. The contents of the desk were minutely examined, and then after nearly two hours work the remainder of the floor was gone over.

The rooms occupied by Mr. and Mrs. Borden, deceased, were furnished in old-fashioned style, the bed being low and the other furniture heavy. The only other room on the floor was practically unfurnished."

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Tue Dec 30, 2014 9:43 pm

YES TWINS: The room you mention above, taken from Rebello, was Emma's room. It describes it as a study of sorts, but in fact it was where Emma Slept. To get to Emma's room, you needed to go through Lizzie's room. (thus the idea that there was no privacy, though the sisters never complained about this)

If the description is correct as you wrote it, it is wrong. Emma's room, or the small room they describe, is to the north of Lizzie's room, not the South.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Tue Dec 30, 2014 9:44 pm

The way the sentence reads, it may be implying that "Lizzie's" room was to the South, which it was. But the way I read it, it is saying that this small room is to the South, which it was not.

MysteryReader · Post by **MysteryReader** » Tue Dec 30, 2014 10:00 pm

Interesting, Twin. It's almost word for word for Parallel Lives. Well, what's written in purple text. Of course, I'm wondering how well the police searched the cellar/basement. From my drawing (in the book), there appear to be plenty of hiding places for a hatchet.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Tue Dec 30, 2014 11:11 pm

mbhenty wrote:YES TWINS: The room you mention above, taken from Rebello, was Emma's room. It describes it as a study of sorts, but in fact it was where Emma Slept. To get to Emma's room, you needed to go through Lizzie's room. (thus the idea that there was no privacy, though the sisters never complained about this)

If the description is correct as you wrote it, it is wrong. Emma's room, or the small room they describe, is to the north of Lizzie's room, not the South.

Good catch, MB!!! Thank you! I was hoping you would post your knowledge of the house on this thread. I've always put a great deal of stock in everything you post.

I re-checked my above entry, again. I did type it word for word, right out of Rebello. This error blatantly stood out, when I was re-checking the text this time. If Lizzie's windows in her room are on the south side of the house, then Emma's room has to be on the north side of Lizzie's room. Jeez! Either Marshal Hilliard, got it wrong, or the newspaper reporter got it wrong.

mbhenty wrote:The way the sentence reads, it may be implying that "Lizzie's" room was to the South, which it was. But the way I read it, it is saying that this small room is to the South, which it was not.

You didn't misread it, MB. Now that I can considerate on the contexts of the article, I am reading it the same way you are.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Tue Dec 30, 2014 11:23 pm

MysteryReader wrote:Interesting, Twin. It's almost word for word for Parallel Lives. Well, what's written in purple text. Of course, I'm wondering how well the police searched the cellar/basement. From my drawing (in the book), there appear to be plenty of hiding places for a hatchet.

Really, almost word for word? I haven't had a chance to compare this article from Rebello, to the same article in Parallel Lives. Do you find anything that is different in the text of this article in Parallel Lives?

Marshal Hilliard's article doesn't mention a search of the cellar, does it? Hmmmm. Interesting. Do you recall the evening (I believe it was on the 4th) that Alice and Lizzie went down to the cellar, and once to came up, it was shortly after that Lizzie went down alone? I have always wonder why she went to the cellar twice, within a short period of time. Could she have his a hatchet when she went down the second time? Food for thought.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Tue Dec 30, 2014 11:27 pm

mbhenty wrote:Oh yes! And we must not forget the building he gave Emma and Lizzie on Ferry Street.

By today's standards it was like giving them (est.) 200,000 dollars.

Then he purchased it back from them for market value.

And giving Lizzie a 4 month vacation in Europe. By today's value that has to be worth 15 to 20,000 dollars.

MB, I hope you don’t mind that I am posting some additional information here.

Following is a partial, and rearrangement of information, of the post I submitted on Apr 22, 2014, in the thread titled, If Lizzie...:

Poor Andrew has been unfairly tagged as a stingy tightwad, but in reality he actually bought the Ferry Street property twice!!! He bought 1/2 of it from his father for a life pension, then he bought the other 1/2 from his sister, and then he generously gave the house to his daughters, which he then bought back from them!!! (The house which Andrew deeded to Lizzie and Emma in October of 1887, was actually the old family homestead on Ferry Street; it was the same house Lizzie was born in).

Emma and Lizzie profited greatly from the Ferry Street house: In July of 1892, Andrew bought the Ferry Street house back from 'the girls' for $5,000; Emma and Lizzie each received $2,500. To top it off, Lizzie and Emma inherited the Ferry Street house after Abby and Andrew were kill, and then sold it, again, for a tidy little profit.

So, there you have it; Andrew emptied his pockets twice, and ‘the girls’ padded their pockets twice!!!

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Tue Dec 30, 2014 11:39 pm

Thank you for the info, Mb. My memory was that Emma went away to school soon after Andrew and Abby's marriage to give Abby some time with young Lizzie. They married in June 1865. Emma stated at the Inquest "I was away from school about a year and a half" in answer to Knowlton's question. So she was 16-17 years of age, (having been born in March 1851) and doesnt seem to have liked being at the college/academy.

The reporter on the Borden home either seems to have gone in with the searching police on the Saturday without the permission or knowledge of either Emma or Lizzie, or more likely, got a description of the rooms from police contacts. Perhaps Harrington, who knew a lot about female dress, told the reporter a few things! He, and Hilliard, had interviewed Lizzie in her room on the Thursday.

Still, that was the day of the funeral, wasn't it, so the family being away for an hour or so might mean that the police searchers might have allowed it?

By the 1890's gas light was common in most upper class homes in both Britain and the U.S. Many people didn't like or want fumes in bedrooms as it made some persons woozy, but it was fine in ground floor rooms. Yes, it's true, Andrew had oil-fired central heating. Possibly his old bones wanted it.

However, he didn't believe other fripperies like a decent bathroom or WC were necessary simply because that was his view. He didn't seem to consider that his daughters might have appreciated those facilities upstairs.

The Hatchet news is interesting! Thanks!

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Tue Dec 30, 2014 11:50 pm

Yes, twins, it was 9pm approx., on the murder day, the 4th. About a quarter of an hour after Alice and Lizzie's first visit to the cellar Officer Hyde again observed Lizzie return to the cellar, alone. She was seen to go to the sink and then stoop down. The bloodied clothes (which in a modern investigation would have been zipped into pristine evidence bags and taken away to the lab) were lying in a pile about five or six feet from the sink.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 12:14 am

Of course, the popular belief was that Emma left for school to allow Abbey to bond with Lizzie. Of course we don't know the truth.

I have always subscribed to the idea that Emma probably always wanted to go away to school, and the Borden elders may have thought it a good idea, since she worked most of her young life taking care of Lizzie. Emma deserved a vacation. What ever the truth, we can only guess.

Thanks for the Kudos Twins. It is very kind of you.

irina · Post by **irina** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 12:34 am

I take the newspaper article at the beginning of this thread to be describing the furnishings of the room as "dainty", not the dimensions. The writer's purpose is to point out that there was white and light colored bed clothing and a silk drape in front of the wash stand, so how could Lizzie have cleaned herself without transferring blood? None of this really matters for a lot of reasons though it sure would have been interesting to use luminol in the house way back then. There might have been interesting microscopic bloody marks here and there or trailed or something.

One thing that was said about Andrew being a skinflint was that he and Abby would sit in the dark in the evening to save on kerosene. But in Bridget's testimony she said that when she was out for an evening a lighted lamp was left on the kitchen table for her to use when she returned. That's pretty darn generous I think if indeed Andrew saved on oil by sitting in the dark.

Might people have been afraid of gas lines exploding in those days? A number of people I know are afraid of gas in this modern day, and see a gas cook stove as something akin to a bomb. Of course my area of the US is near big hydroelectric dams and the "all electric home" was heavily pushed in this area at one time. Both my mother and first husband had California backgrounds so I have always used gas to cook and my female friends think that's pretty dangerous.

It was mentioned above that 92 Second had 2 spigots, one in the barn and one in the basement WC. OK. But what about the kitchen? Was that a line run off the basement spigot? Was FR water pressurized by water towers or by another means? We once had a discussion about whether or not 92 Second had or could have used a garden hose. I felt it could not due to probable low pressure issues, but none of us were sure. As in Bridget's window washing with a brush, basin, dipper, etc~there didn't seem to be a hose and/or she didn't use it if there was one. I'm betting there wasn't one.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:10 am

mbhenty wrote:Anything you read in Parallel Lives is true.

It's not like reading Kent, or Sullivan or Lincoln or Radin, De mille, Brown, etc. Michael Martin and Dennis are the authorities of Lizzie Borden Studies. No one know's the case better. They have the privilege of being in touch with Borden family members and friends all over the country. These people confide in the Historical Society because they know the staff will respect due diligence when it comes to telling the truth and getting the facts right. If it's in Parallel Lives, it has been likely researched and verified before it was placed in the there.

MB, do you happen to know what their opinion is as to whether Lizzie was attempting to crawl under the bed or at least shield her head? And what is yours?

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:10 am

mbhenty wrote:Anything you read in Parallel Lives is true.

It's not like reading Kent, or Sullivan or Lincoln or Radin, De mille, Brown, etc. Michael Martin and Dennis are the authorities of Lizzie Borden Studies. No one know's the case better. They have the privilege of being in touch with Borden family members and friends all over the country. These people confide in the Historical Society because they know the staff will respect due diligence when it comes to telling the truth and getting the facts right. If it's in Parallel Lives, it has been likely researched and verified before it was placed in the there.

MB, do you happen to know what their opinion is as to whether Lizzie was attempting to crawl under the bed or at least shield her head? And what is yours?

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 3:02 am

Now, Debbie:

I assume you are talking about Abby.

I have never asked the fellas at the Historical Society about what they thought about Abby shielding her head or trying to climb under the bed. When I visit or meet up with Mike or Dennis, I try to keep the "Lizzie talk" to a minimum. They get tired of speaking about Lizzie, since most visitors are loaded with questions and they hear it all day. As a friend, I try not to inflict upon them such inquiry.

My opinion is: First we must establish whether Abby saw her killer or was surprised by him/her. Or even if she knew them, which would make a difference on how she would conduct herself...with fear, surprise, or no particular notice.

She could have been chased into that corner between the bed and the dresser. Or perhaps already there conducting her chores and surprised by the killer. Since she had a flap of flesh lifted at the front portion of her head, we determine that she may have seen her killer. I'm not certain she did or not.

There is no way she could fit under the bed and she must have known that. But if someone's after you with an axe and you see a bread box near by, fear and panic may tell you to try and climb into it to get away. Chances are it is just the way and place she happened to fall.

Also, if someone is chasing you or comes up to you with an axe in their hand, you will not turn your back to them, unless you were running away. I would think that 10 out of 10 people would throw their arms up to protect themselves.

I believe that Abby was surprised. Just like Andrew was. And she never knew what hit her. And if she did, it wasn't for more than a second or so. If she was on her knees, lets say, making the bed, what easy prey she would be. All but one wound was to the back of the head. Chances are she never saw the killer. If she did and couldn't get away, she would have raised her arms to protect herself, thus, her arms would have cuts.

And, about the cut that lifted the flat to the front of her head? She could have mustered just enough strength to look back after the first blow....or it could have been done by the first blow. But by the third or fourth blow, poor Abby was well on her way to death and very unaware of what was happening or who was doing it. As morbid as the wounds were, it is possible that she never felt a thing.

But my guess is as good as yours, unless you include ponies and unicorns. In which case it would be time for you to start writing fiction.

irina · Post by **irina** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 3:13 pm

There were tufts of hair in two places as I recall. One location was on the bed. The other area was the mop board in a straight line from Abby's head. It seems to me there are two ways to look at how she was attacked. On one hand there is the possibility she faced her attacker and ducked to the side and that this caused the flap wound to the side of her head.

Another way to look at it is that her back was turned and she was knocked down. The largest amount of whacks was near her ear on the right but there were a couple more to the top of her head which makes me think that after she fell on the floor the killer delivered a few blows toward the top of her head and in line with the mop board where hair was found stuck to the wall. From this position it seems that the flap wound could have been delivered with the assailant standing over the top of Abby. In this scenario the target would have been near the top of Abby's head but there was kind of a miss. So could the blow to her back, near her shoulder blade have knocked her down and could she have instinctively tried to jam her head under the bed, and in so doing is that how the flap was created?

We have no idea what Abby was thinking if she did know she was being attacked. If it was Lizzie would Abby have thought she could talk her way out of it like, "Lizzie, don't!" Worse yet would be Lizzie merely threatening with hatchet in hand and Abby saying she would tell Andrew. THAT could explain a few things.

If it was someone unknown to her she might simply have frozen in disbelief. I was assaulted once and did nothing because I was trying to understand what was happening that was so unexpected. I couldn't figure out why something so extreme was happening in my life. Fortunately the creep had a dull knife or a screw driver or something and didn't do much damage. I would think women in Victorian times would have been very compliant victims since they were raised to submit and to depend on men folks for protection.

Another problem though with Abby trying to crawl under the bed is that the largest number of whacks were to the right side of the back of her head. We have discussed whether the killer had a handful of hair in his/her other hand. Even if Abby had crawled toward under the bed, that side of her head had to be exposed for the excess whacks. Which makes me wonder if the killer kicked, pounded or otherwise positioned her body toward under the bed? An attempt to hide the body would definitely point to Lizzie. That would be one thing I would never lay at the feet of an intruder. Is it possible the killer (have to be Lizzie) had hopes of hiding the body under the bed but it didn't fit?

MysteryReader · Post by **MysteryReader** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 4:31 pm

twinsrwe wrote:
MysteryReader wrote:Interesting, Twin. It's almost word for word for Parallel Lives. Well, what's written in purple text. Of course, I'm wondering how well the police searched the cellar/basement. From my drawing (in the book), there appear to be plenty of hiding places for a hatchet.
Really, almost word for word? I haven't had a chance to compare this article from Rebello, to the same article in Parallel Lives. Do you find anything that is different in the text of this article in Parallel Lives?

Marshal Hilliard's article doesn't mention a search of the cellar, does it? Hmmmm. Interesting. Do you recall the evening (I believe it was on the 4th) that Alice and Lizzie went down to the cellar, and once to came up, it was shortly after that Lizzie went down alone? I have always wonder why she went to the cellar twice, within a short period of time. Could she have his a hatchet when she went down the second time? Food for thought.

Twins- it's almost word for word but it did leave out the part about their being easy chairs and rockers around. Of course, it was coming from an article written by a reporter (no name) who worked at the Fall River Daily Evening News. My guess is that Mrs. Percy (New York Herald) read the article and then compared it to her visit to the house.

I'll have to see if I can figure out a way to scan the images for the cellar and put them here (the book alone is 6.5 pounds, not heavy but awkward to handle). Okay, the floor plans were done by Thomas Kieran and presented to the court in the trials. From what I can see, there are plenty of hiding places for a hatchet (it's possible she was carrying it the second time).

Who is Marshal Hillard, please?

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 4:43 pm

No-one will ever know exactly how the attack occurred, will we? (Unless humans time travel one day and that's not likely in our lifetimes!) I tend to believe (because in my mind it's Lizzie of course) that it happened earlier in the day than 9:30. Abby was leaning across the bed fiddling with the pillow shams, which did get blood splashed, when Lizzie came in. She perhaps engaged her in conversation so she could get near enough to launch a sudden attack.

It was such a confined space Abby would have had nowhere to run. I agree with you that if it had been a stranger she would have frozen in fright. I think that's a common response even nowadays. The mind probably goes into "this isn't happening to me!" mode.

I tend to agree with mb that Abby never knew what hit her. If momentarily she turned her face towards her killer in those last few seconds of conscious life, that was how she received the flap wound. However, one blow at the back of the head and she would have fallen. No defence wounds on arms or hands, just deep unconsciousness.

That bed was so low. I've only seen one photo taken of the original bed, from its foot, in situ, without the body being in the frame. It was an incredibly heavy looking piece of furniture and very low. I doubt a hedgehog could have got under it and I don't think Abby tried.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 5:03 pm

Mystery, Marshall Rufus Hilliard, who had the most magnificent moustache, (Franz, where are you?) was a law officer for Fall River, the equivalent today of a chief of police., succeeding Josiah Hunt .He had been involved in investigating the daylight robbery of the Borden home the year before the murders and it was he who discreetly spoke to Andrew, who ordered further inquiries to cease.

On the day of the murders he received the phone call from Cunningham at 11:15 am that sent the first police officer (Allen) to the Borden house. He himself didn't go until about 2pm, but there were plenty of police there by then. Hilliard was very much involved in the murder investigation and arrest of Lizzie.

MysteryReader · Post by **MysteryReader** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 6:56 pm

Thanks, Curry! Now, I remember him

I couldn't place him.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 7:32 pm

mbhenty wrote:Now, Debbie:

I assume you are talking about Abby.

Lol, yep, talking about Abby...I have now joined the ranks of the elderly and thus have the right to totally space out when typing.

This is why I asked:

“We now know that when Abby Borden’s body was discovered, she was partially under the bed, which is not evident in the photographs of the crime scene that were taken the day of the murders and presented as evidence during the trial,” Martins said. “Clearly, her body had been moved before the images were taken. This is completely new material and important.” - See more at:

http://www.heraldnews.com/article/20120 ... 8qTT0.dpuf

I rarely take newspapers as the absolute word, even direct quotes. Whether Abby was partially under the bed may make a difference in how the crime was enacted....or maybe the killer caught her chasing a dust bunny!

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Thu Jan 01, 2015 10:10 pm

mbhenty wrote:... Thanks for the Kudos Twins. It is very kind of you.

You are very welcome!

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Thu Jan 01, 2015 10:22 pm

Curryong wrote:Yes, twins, it was 9pm approx., on the murder day, the 4th. About a quarter of an hour after Alice and Lizzie's first visit to the cellar Officer Hyde again observed Lizzie return to the cellar, alone. She was seen to go to the sink and then stoop down. The bloodied clothes (which in a modern investigation would have been zipped into pristine evidence bags and taken away to the lab) were lying in a pile about five or six feet from the sink.

Thanks, Curry!

It's too bad Officer Hyde didn't investigate this incidence.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Thu Jan 01, 2015 10:28 pm

MysteryReader wrote:
twinsrwe wrote:
MysteryReader wrote:Interesting, Twin. It's almost word for word for Parallel Lives. Well, what's written in purple text. Of course, I'm wondering how well the police searched the cellar/basement. From my drawing (in the book), there appear to be plenty of hiding places for a hatchet.
Really, almost word for word? I haven't had a chance to compare this article from Rebello, to the same article in Parallel Lives. Do you find anything that is different in the text of this article in Parallel Lives?

Marshal Hilliard's article doesn't mention a search of the cellar, does it? Hmmmm. Interesting. Do you recall the evening (I believe it was on the 4th) that Alice and Lizzie went down to the cellar, and once to came up, it was shortly after that Lizzie went down alone? I have always wonder why she went to the cellar twice, within a short period of time. Could she have his a hatchet when she went down the second time? Food for thought.

Twins- it's almost word for word but it did leave out the part about their being easy chairs and rockers around. Of course, it was coming from an article written by a reporter (no name) who worked at the Fall River Daily Evening News. My guess is that Mrs. Percy (New York Herald) read the article and then compared it to her visit to the house.

I'll have to see if I can figure out a way to scan the images for the cellar and put them here (the book alone is 6.5 pounds, not heavy but awkward to handle). Okay, the floor plans were done by Thomas Kieran and presented to the court in the trials. From what I can see, there are plenty of hiding places for a hatchet (it's possible she was carrying it the second time).

Who is Marshal Hillard, please?

That is interesting! I wonder why the part of the easy chairs and rockers were left out? Guess this is just another Borden mystery!

MysteryReader · Post by **MysteryReader** » Thu Jan 01, 2015 10:59 pm

Tomorrow, I'll have to look at the pic of the cellar and what Officer Hyde observed Lizzie at...