Do you believe it???

[twinsrwe]

I was doing some research on the Bordens of Fall River, when I found an interesting addition has been made to Andrew Jackson Borden’s Find-A-Grave web site. Check it out; see if you can spot the error:

http://tinyurl.com/muztw9q

The same error has been added to Sarah, Emma, Lizzie and Alice’s Find-A-Grave web sites. Jeez!!!

[debbiediablo]

Eliza?

[mbhenty]

.
Hmmmm?

The only Eliza Borden I know of was an Eliza A., sister to William S Borden, the Billy Borden which Arnold Brown claimed was Andrew Borden's son.

Eliza A Borden died in the Taunton Insane Asylum.

I wonder where they came up with the information for an Eliza B. (?)

[mbhenty]

Apparently Eliza B Borden was a real person and lived right around the same time. She is buried in Freetown, which is the next town over, north, from fall river. (small F, small R, for the small minds that live here)

Interesting. Begin the search....

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cg ... =113657621

[Curryong]

Yes, someone's made a boo-boo and given Andrew and Sarah an extra child! I wonder who Eliza B. was? 'Small minds' mb? Tell us more, love the gossip!

Well, I've taken a good long look in all the references I have and the Forum has. I'm not buying a subscription to Ancestry.com etc. to go further into it, so am going to have to admit defeat. She quite obviously isn't Lizzie's sister and whoever it is who's put Eliza B in with our Bordens hasn't bothered to research properly at all.

[taosjohn]

Yes, someone's made a boo-boo and given Andrew and Sarah an extra child! I wonder who Eliza B. was? 'Small minds' mb? Tell us more, love the gossip!

Well, I've taken a good long look in all the references I have and the Forum has. I'm not buying a subscription to Ancestry.com etc. to go further into it, so am going to have to admit defeat. She quite obviously isn't Lizzie's sister and whoever it is who's put Eliza B in with our Bordens hasn't bothered to research properly at all.

Since no death date is given, is it possible that this is a record of a stillborn or otherwise nonviable child?

[debbiediablo]

Since no death date is given, is it possible that this is a record of a stillborn or otherwise nonviable child?

I wondered about this, also, as Emma and Eliza could be names for twin girls with only one surviving. The 'new' Eliza B was supposedly born in 1851, the same year as Emma L. who was born March 1. This means (if Eliza is real) that they were either twins or Sarah conceived and delivered a second child within 43.57 weeks following Emma's birth. Do-able but improbable, but I do wonder if that could cause a congested uterus.

[Curryong]

Are we talking here about the Eliza B Borden who is lying in the cemetery in Freetown or the Eliza who has somehow got herself attached to various 'find a grave' records that twins mentioned?

Because the Eliza B. of Freetown had a very long life indeed, (whoever she was) while the Eliza supposedly born in 1851 to Andrew and Sarah seems to have got herself connected to our Bordens quite recently. So recently that experts on the Bordens of Fall River like Len Rebello, Kat, Harry, Michael etc., have never mentioned her!

Who works on these 'find a grave' records and then publishes their 'work' on the Internet? Are they qualified local historians, genealogists etc., or just volunteers, as on Wiki? Because my guess is, if it's the latter, then someone has made a gigantic boo-boo or is playing a trick. If our Andrew and Sarah had four children then Lizzie didn't know about it. She only mentioned Alice in testimony about her family.

[debbiediablo]

I'm speaking of the Eliza, wherever she came from, listed as a sister of Emma and Lizzie and supposedly born in 1851, death date unknown. The other Eliza was born in 1857. No, they are not qualified historians. Like much of the internet (including Wikipedia which does contain errors) the facts are only as accurate as the poster. There is the possibility that Emma had a twin; my grandmother gave birth to twin sons. The one who died at birth was never mentioned in the family, and the only reason I know he existed is that my mother was old enough to remember what happened. I think it's remotely possible that Emma had a twin and Lizzie didn't know, but less possible that Emma had a twin who was never discovered by the zillions of people who have examined this case with microscopic attention. Anyone can join Find-A-Grave and either edit or challenge information posted there. Unlike Wikipedia, a cursory glance doesn't show me who made that edit although it may be available with closer inspection.

[twinsrwe]

If you pull up the Eliza B. Borden listed on the web site I provided, you will find that Eliza was born on Feb. 12, 1851, which is 17 days BEFORE Emma was born. The thought of there being twin girls with only one surviving, also crossed my mind, but if Eliza was a stillborn, wouldn’t her death date be listed as the same day she was born? If she died within the 17 days prior to when Emma was born, wouldn’t her death date be listed giving the date she died?

I am positive that if this Eliza B. Borden were indeed a child of our Andrew and Sarah, then Borden experts like Len Rebello, Michael Martins, Dennis Binette, Stefani, Kat, Harry, etc., would have known about her and she would have been a part of the Andrew Jackson Borden family just as Alice was. Curry is correct, Eliza B. Borden’s record was recently added: Nov. 29, 2014.

During my research I did come across the Eliza B. Borden that MB mentioned, however, that Eliza was born in 1857; 6 years AFTER the Eliza B. Borden listed in the web site I provided. I googled, ‘birth record for an Eliza B. Borden born in Fall River, Massachusetts on February 12, 1851’, and of course Ancestry.com came up. So, I went into their web site and typed in the information they requested. They have 1,362 records for Eliza B. Borden!!! Like Curry, I am not going to buy a subscription to Ancestry.com, just so that I can research this further.

I then did a search of ‘Eliza B.’ using the search engine at the top of the forum page. Finally, I was able to obtain some information on this Eliza!

On Dec 19, 2012, Allen posted:

Eliza B. Borden born February 12, 1851 in Fall River. Andrew Borden and Sarah A. Borden listed as parents. Father listed as cabinet maker. His place of birth listed as Manchester, and hers is listed as Tiverton R.I. So we have another Andrew Borden, cabinet maker, and Sarah A. Borden in Fall River. But does anyone know if they are related to the Borden's in our case at all?

Source: http://tinyurl.com/nq953x4


On Nov 22, 2013, Allen Posted (NOTE: Allen made an error – the Andrew mentioned in the birth record was born in Manchester, not Massachusetts:

I have always found this interesting. I found a birth record for an Eliza B. Borden born in Fall River Massachusetts on February 12, 1851 to Andrew J. and Sarah A. Borden. The father is listed as being a cabinet maker, which we know Andrew was a cabinet maker. This is how he is listed in census records and in various other records. The parents being Andrew J. Borden and Sarah A. Borden, and the child being born the same year as Emma, seems like a huge coincidence. I thought someone had mentioned this coincidence a long time ago on the board but I have not found any information yet. The father is listed as born in Massachusetts, and the mother in Tiverton, Rhode Island. According to what we know Sarah Anthony Morse was also born in Massachusetts. Was Emma originally Eliza, or was there another Andrew J. and Sarah A. Borden who had a child in 1851 in Fall River?

file.jpg

Source: http://tinyurl.com/mnonrgv

So, there you have it. As far as I am concerned, this Eliza B. Borden is NOT Andrew Jackson and Sarah Anthony Morse Borden’s child.

[debbiediablo]

The best secretary...I mean administrative assistant...I ever had was married to a twin. His twin brother was delivered a month too early and died (he'dbe about 45 now) but her husband was carried to term. I cannot imagine this happening in 1851 obstetrics, and if by some miraculous chance it did, then the story would become an important piece of family history rather than a secret. It is a remarkable coincidence that another Andrew J, cabinet maker, and Sarah A Borden existed in Fall River and became parents of a baby girl in early 1851. The last time we had a genealogy question, John Watson immediately popped up with the answer. So where are you John?

[Curryong]

Poor old Elvis Presley was a twin, whose sibling, Aaron, died, wasn't he? I'm sure if there had been a twin to Emma our Bordens would have known all about it.

Excellent research work, twins. I hope whoever put Eliza (born 1851) onto our Bordens' grave site records takes them down. We know better, because we're on the LAB forum, but some other people might get misled.

I have to say, that if the Eliza B who died in 1945 had free records we could look through, it would be excellent. I wonder whether she was the younger sister of Andrew, Manchester-born cabinet maker and his wife Sarah. If the first baby died younger siblings were often named after them.

[MysteryReader]

Debbie-

Aaron was Elvis' middle name and yes, he did have a twin that died I *think* before he was born. I read his story years ago so my memory is a bit faulty.

[twinsrwe]

Poor old Elvis Presley was a twin, whose sibling, Aaron, died, wasn't he? I'm sure if there had been a twin to Emma our Bordens would have known all about it. ...

Yes, Elvis had an identical twin brother named Jesse Garon, who was stillborn.

Being a fraternal twin, myself, my twin brother and I share a truly unique and special bond. However, identical twins share an even stronger bond than that of fraternal twins, primarily due to the fact that they share the same genes.

Elvis was haunted by his twin’s death his entire life. Growing up, he was affected by his guilt at surviving when his brother did not, even blaming himself for Jesse’s death. Elvis felt extremely lonely, as if something was missing from his life; that something was a part of him.

I find it so sad that Elvis had it all; family, friends, good looks, wealth and fame, yet he lived his life tormented by the loss of his twin.

...Excellent research work, twins. I hope whoever put Eliza (born 1851) onto our Bordens' grave site records takes them down. We know better, because we're on the LAB forum, but some other people might get misled. ...

Thanks, Curry! I think I will notify the creator of Eliza's page, and after giving the facts, I'll ask that the connection to our Borden family be deleted.

... I have to say, that if the Eliza B who died in 1945 had free records we could look through, it would be excellent. I wonder whether she was the younger sister of Andrew, Manchester-born cabinet maker and his wife Sarah. If the first baby died younger siblings were often named after them.

I agree, it would be interesting to know more about the Eliza born in 1945.

[twinsrwe]

UPDATE: I contacted the creator of Eliza Borden's page and gave the little information we have on this child; it took quite awhile but the creator did remove Eliza from our Borden's find-a grave pages.

http://tinyurl.com/muztw9q

[debbiediablo]

This is exactly why finding information online can be misleading unless a person uses and correctly interprets the original documents. For all the use Wikipedia gets, I see mistakes there fairly often - mostly minutiae but an encyclopedic piece of work is expected to be accurate. Thanks from all the Lizzie Aficionados for getting this fixed, Twins!

[twinsrwe]

You’re welcome, Debbie.

I just couldn’t stand our Borden’s pages having such inaccurate information displayed; it drove me right up the wall! I had to become a registered member of Find-A-Grave in order to accomplish the removal of Eliza B. from our Borden’s pages. (This was not a big deal since, joining Find-A-Grave as a member is free). Once I joined and became a member, I was sent a reply from Find-A-Grave stating:

As a member you can:

• Add names to the database.
• Leave ' virtual flowers' for people.
• Upload photos to memorial pages.

All services at Find A Grave are completely free!

As far as I know, I did not have the option to edit/remove Eliza’s page myself. However, I did have the options to make a public statement or send the creator of Eliza's page an e-mail; I chose the latter because I didn’t want to embarrass this person with a public statement. Once this e-mail was sent I created a shortcut of Eliza’s Find-A-Grave page, and placed it as an icon on my desktop. By doing this I could simply click on the icon to find out the status of any changes that may have been made. (Although, I gave the creator my e-mail address, I did not receive a reply from them). Here is the information I found on May 2nd, when I clicked on my shortcut icon:

http://tinyurl.com/opohc2e

I am very thankful that the creator of Eliza's page made this correction.

[Curryong]

Well done, twins! That's marvellous! It's a pity that you had to become a registered member of Find-a-Grave to do it, and that you didn't get any message back from them. However, it's excellent that this mistake is now being rectified, and that everything is now correct. All's well that ends well, I guess!

[twinsrwe]

Thanks, Curry. Actually, it was quite easy to registered as a member of Find-a-Grave, which I was more than willing to do if the result produced the correction that was needed.

I'm grateful that the creator of Eliza's page, took the information I sent seriously. I assume that the reason it took such a long time for him to remove Eliza from our Borden's pages is because he did some research for himself and found the truth. I would have liked a response e-mail from him, but it's OK that he didn't send a reply.

When composing that e-mail, I made a great effort to be cordial, and gave him all of the information I had collected about Eliza from varies threads here on the forum. (Thanks to Allen who provided us with the census report, which I included in my e-mail). I just hope he wasn’t embarrassed by his mistake, because that was NOT my intension.

Bottom line: Mission accomplished!

[patsy]

So glad you requested that information to be removed, Twins. Thank you so much. Additions like that are not necessarily directly added to the memorial but are calculated based on information that may appear to link them.

[twinsrwe]

You are very welcome, Patsy. The creator of Eliza Borden's page took quite awhile to remove Eliza from our Borden pages; maybe that person did some research and found that the information I provided was correct. I'm just glad I took the time to contact the creator of Eliza's page and they realized their error.