Lizzie Borden Chronicles

Stefani · Post by **Stefani** » Fri Feb 13, 2015 10:25 am

The new mini-series by Lifetime is premiering on April 5. So Lizzie is in the news again!

I posted a few articles on this on MondoLizzie, and in case you didn't see them, here are the links:

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/MondoLizz ... call-saul/

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/MondoLizz ... r-april-5/

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/MondoLizz ... m-a-break/

Personally, I am looking forward to this series. I don't care one whit if they mess with history. They are selling the show as fictional. If it turns out to be good, it will only increase the desire for her "real" story.

LBC_101_MT_3454r-683x1024.jpg

Aamartin · Post by **Aamartin** » Fri Feb 13, 2015 12:59 pm

I agree about the fictionalization... It's also why I think every Lizzie book deserves a read... It will compel people to read more, perhaps do a Google search and end up here!

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Fri Feb 13, 2015 5:54 pm

This is good news, Stefani. Hope it's shown in Australia but no doubt I'll be able to watch it online anyway. It will be interesting to see what story lines develop on it ( besides the obvious.) Perhaps Lizzie will fall in love or something! Woo-hoo!

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Fri Feb 13, 2015 5:56 pm

Sorry! Double post!

BillyBorden · Post by **BillyBorden** » Sat Feb 14, 2015 1:49 am

Jonathan Banks of Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul is in it:

http://www.comingsoon.net/tv/features/4 ... zie-borden

Aamartin · Post by **Aamartin** » Sat Feb 14, 2015 7:28 am

You will get to see it Curryong-- I will see to that!

BillyBorden · Post by **BillyBorden** » Sat Feb 14, 2015 9:08 am

Also the character of Charlie Siringo seems to be based on a real historical figure:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Siringo

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Sat Feb 14, 2015 9:43 am

Thank you Anthony. That will be lovely!

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Sat Feb 14, 2015 11:06 pm

First of all, I want to welcome BillyBorden to the forum. I am glad to see you are joining in on some of the discussions. We enjoy hearing from new members! I think you will find this forum is, for the most part, a fun place to learn about the Borden murders. When it comes to Lizzie Borden, this forum is the best!

Thank you for posting the above information; I found it interesting.

BillyBorden · Post by **BillyBorden** » Sun Feb 15, 2015 4:13 pm

Thanks, twins. I took my screen name from the alleged half brother of the Bordens.

Just weighed in on the hatchet issue too on another thread.

Excited about the series and I hope it's great.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Mon Feb 16, 2015 4:50 pm

Yes, I've been very rude, and distracted, since Christmas. Twins in the family, who are having their first swimming lessons in the pool (at three months of age) this week!

Welcome, welcome, BillyBorden! I do hope you enjoy posting here and inspire others, new and old, to join in.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Tue Feb 17, 2015 12:08 am

You're welcome, Billy. I sort of thought you had taken your user name from the alleged half brother of the Bordens. I think you are going to find a lot of interesting topics on the forum. I hope you feel comfortable posting your thoughts and ideas. BTW, if you find an older thread that you would like to comment on, please do so.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Tue Feb 17, 2015 12:09 am

BillyBorden wrote:... Excited about the series and I hope it's great.

Me too!

Albanyguy · Post by **Albanyguy** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 8:21 am

I'm looking forward to it, too. And if it turns out to be somewhat disappointing, at least it can't possibly be worse than that Christina Ricci disaster!

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 9:35 am

Good point, Albanyguy!

patsy · Post by **patsy** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 5:34 pm

Welcome, BillyBorden.

I'm excited about the series too. It is drawing attention to the case of the Borden's murders, and hopefully it will help dispel some of the false "facts" that get passed around if that's not hoping for too much.

BillyBorden · Post by **BillyBorden** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:08 am

New York Times giving the series a good review...

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/01/arts/ ... d=tw-share

Seems like, as we suspected, they play fast and loose with history.

http://jam.canoe.ca/Television/2015/03/31/22319286.html

Fingers crossed it's an entertaining ride through Fall River! (Hollywood's version, anyway)

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 10:11 am

BillyBorden wrote:New York Times giving the series a good review...

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/01/arts/ ... d=tw-share

Seems like, as we suspected, they play fast and loose with history.

http://jam.canoe.ca/Television/2015/03/31/22319286.html

Fingers crossed it's an entertaining ride through Fall River! (Hollywood's version, anyway)

Arturo Interian????

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 4:24 pm

A tiny frisson of sexual attraction going on between Lizzie and Siringo of Pinkerton's then, it appears. Wonder who she will end up killing? Her half-brother and her father's business partner are likely for starters. Sounds good!

Fargo · Post by **Fargo** » Fri Apr 03, 2015 8:16 pm

What is it ? 8 episodes, 2 hours each ?

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Fri Apr 03, 2015 9:42 pm

As far as I can tell, the series will be eight, one hour episodes.

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/01/09/li ... time-video

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lizzie_Borden_Took_an_Ax

http://www.mylifetime.com/shows/the-liz ... chronicles

Fargo · Post by **Fargo** » Sat Apr 04, 2015 12:32 pm

Well I will watch it and tape it tomorrow.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Sun Apr 05, 2015 6:26 am

Fargo, I apologize, according to the TV listing in my area, the series is eight, two hour episodes.

Fargo · Post by **Fargo** » Sun Apr 05, 2015 11:53 pm

Ok got it taped

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Mon Apr 06, 2015 2:56 pm

Warning!

If you watch the series, enjoy it for what it is.

Don't make any connection with the real Lizzie Borden. You'll go mad.

Trying to reason the outcome is like trying to justify Lincoln as a vampire hunter.

Have a good laugh.

Identify moments real or otherwise with a grain of salt.

Or watch something else. Like I am doing.

Mother Teresa Werewolf Slayer.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Mon Apr 06, 2015 5:26 pm

I agree, MB!

I did watch the The Lizzie Borden Chronicles, knowing it was a fictional account. I basically wanted to see just how ridiculous the plot could get; believe me, I wasn’t disappointed! However, I was surprised at some of the language that was used; it was a bit 'off-color' considering this series was on the Lifetime Channel.

I also think the Lizzie Borden Took an Ax movie, starring Christina Ricci, was better all the way around, than The Lizzie Borden Chronicles. This is just my opinion, which I may change later on.

stargazer · Post by **stargazer** » Mon Apr 06, 2015 6:19 pm

I would watch it just to see the costumes, but I'm probably going to be 100 years old by the time they get a version that I'd like. Hopefully, some of the characters actually look like the real people. Do any of them have New England accents ? I don't get Lifetime, I'm a Netflix girl with a Roku.

Richard · Post by **Richard** » Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:58 am

I do agree that this show shouldn't be judged by any lack of historical accuracy. Casting Lizzie as a serial killer is just as valid or invalid as casting her as a girl detective. But it would have taken so little effort to work some historical material into the story. They could have had New England accents, or actually mentioned the mills, or filmed in a town that didn't look like a set for a Calamity Jane film and more like a real New England town.

I just didn't like it. It's not my type of television, regardless of the subject matter. All that bad-ass bluegrass music (which included lyrics about riding on greyhound buses), frenetic jump cutting, blood and gore, and a total pandering to the mash-up culture and the trend to make serial killers the heroes of TV shows (Bates Motel, Dexter, Hannibal) just doesn't appeal to me. It's an industry formula that just bores me and I don't watch any of those shows even though I've tried. And I'm not prudish about the subject matter: Silence of the Lambs is one of my favorite films.

In short I felt that the Lizzie Borden Chronicles is a misfire and panders to base television demographics. The lens flares, jump cuts, techno music and speed-up-then-slow-down effects just irritated the hell out of me. I'll probably keep watching it because I do want to see if they do anything smart or surprising, but I'm not going to base my Sunday evenings around it.

It's not too late to do a really good movie about Lizzie Borden. It's not like this was our only opportunity. In the last five years we've had two Sherlock Holmes television shows as well as the Robert Downy, Jr. movie series. And now an Ian McKellan Sherlock Holmes film is coming out. Perhaps we can also have several Lizzie franchises simultaneously. Anyone who has seen The Last Station (about Leo Tolstoy) or The Invisible Woman (about Charles Dickens) can appreciate how I would like to see a Lizzie movie done. And one can't say that such a film wouldn't make money. Both movies had multiple Academy Award nominations between them and received tremendous critical acclaim.

P.S. You are trying to tell me that the police searched the Borden house and didn't find the dead baby in the basement? And when they searched the barn looking for Billy Borden, they didn't climb up the ladder to the second floor? There were gaps in the plot logic you could park your car in.

patsy · Post by **patsy** » Tue Apr 07, 2015 5:32 pm

I have to say I wasn't shocked at some true crime posts in various forums recently that show people are positive of her guilt and without a doubt at that.

I wonder if the new series has been a factor in the cause of the latest defacing of the Borden stone. http://www.heraldnews.com/article/20150 ... /150407257

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Tue Apr 07, 2015 6:31 pm

To deface a grave stone simply because you've seen something on TV or because of boredom or because you think it's clever or smart is just moronic, isn't it? Grafitti 'artists' are the worst but to just smear paint on a grave stone is really low. Even if you think Lizzie is guilty there are three others buried there who aren't.

The TV series just is what it is, I suppose. They aren't going to portray Lizzie leading a quiet life tending animals and reading books and shopping with her sister. Everyone would fall asleep! I've always thought most people think she is guilty. Even polls held here of members over the years had a majority of 'Lizzie did it' people.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Tue Apr 07, 2015 8:15 pm

patsy wrote:… I wonder if the new series has been a factor in the cause of the latest defacing of the Borden stone. …

Well, Oak Grove Cemetery Director Tony Eaton, feels the vandalism to the Borden grave may be related to the swell in fascination with Lizzie Borden due to the new Lifetime miniseries.

It does seem odd that this vandalism took place, either Sunday during the day or Sunday evening. Especially since the first episodes’ of The Lizzie Borden Chronicles were shown that evening. I don’t understand why anyone would do such a thing. It really shows no respect for the deceased; whether they are the Bordens or anyone else.

RichardX · Post by **RichardX** » Thu Apr 09, 2015 12:55 pm

I'm probably in the minority since I liked the movie. Ricci did a great job as Lizzie. It certainly was not a pedantic re-telling of the historical facts but it told the basic story with a certain MTV style. The music was good as well. I viewed it as a kind of "Abraham Lincoln Vampire Hunter" to be watched for fun. Episode One of the series not so much. It seemed to really struggle to find a story to tell. The Lizzie and Emma characters work well together, but the half-brother was over the top bashing around the house like an ape. Almy was like an overinflated Scrooge from some small town production. There's a definite low budget feel to the writing and supporting cast. There could be a kind of wicked coolness about Lizzie's character that Ricci can conjure up, but it really wasn't on display so far.

Fargo · Post by **Fargo** » Fri Apr 10, 2015 1:59 am

Considering Lizzie guilty, that would be 5 others buried there that are not guilty

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Fri Apr 10, 2015 8:58 am

It is very doubtful that the vandalism of the Borden grave has anything to do with TV series—more than likely just a coincidence. Look at what happened last year when graves were toppled.

To assume that the perpetrators may be discovered is highly unlikely. And locking gates to the cemetery at night is laughable. When I was a teen we played, hung around, drank wine, had parties, and got high on every other grave in that cemetery. Never once did anyone of us ever think of defacing a grave site. They locked the gates back then, also. We always found a way to get in. As a matter of fact, a friend of ours lived bordering the cemetery. His back yard opened right up and onto the south side.

Below is the damage they did last year. Especially sad was that of Sarah Cornell, who was found hung in 1832, pregnant, and for which many believe made that way by a vicar who killed her.

I find the Cornell story as fascinating as the Bordens.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:04 pm

Very, very sad, mb. I just don't understand graffiti or damaging graves. It's groups of young teenagers doing it, I suppose. Boredom, alienation, a need to squirt a canister of paint, who knows. The tale of Sarah Cornell you mention sounds interesting. A womanising vicar, who would have thought it! Fall River must have been quite small in those days. The gossip must have been unbelievably intense.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Fri Apr 10, 2015 9:01 pm

Thanks for posting the pics MD; it saddens me to know that any cemetery would be defaced like this.

mbhenty wrote:... I find the Cornell story as fascinating as the Bordens. ...

I agree, MB, there is just as much mystery involved in both cases; both have a suspect who was acquitted and both are unsolved.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Fri Apr 10, 2015 9:16 pm

I found the following links regarding the case of Sarah Cornell, very interesting:

Sarah Maria Cornell (May 3, 1803 – December 20, 1832) was a young Fall River mill worker whose corpse was found hanging from a stackpole on the farm of John Durfee in nearby Tiverton, Rhode Island on December 21, 1832. Her death was at first thought to be a suicide. After an autopsy, it was discovered she was pregnant. Methodist minister Ephraim K. Avery would be suspected of her pregnancy and tried for her murder, in a trial what would engage local industrialists against the New England Conference of the Methodist Episcopal Church. Although Avery would be acquitted for the murder, he was forever scorned in the eyes of the public.

Read more at: http://tinyurl.com/kusxbyk

The New York Times ~ August 10, 1986

IN 1892, Lizzie Borden brought Fall River, Mass., to national attention by her domestic hatchet work.

Sixty years earlier, another woman's association with murder had done the same. But Borden's predecessor, Sarah Maria Cornell, had been the victim rather than the perpetrator. On the morning of Dec. 21, 1832, Cornell's body was found hanged. A 30-year-old employee of the nearby Fall River Manufactory and a Methodist, Cornell was initially thought to have committed suicide because she was pregnant. In some remaining papers and in conversation with a doctor she had implicated Ephraim Kingsbury Avery, a married Methodist minister. Her pregnancy led another Methodist minister, who had at first pronounced her a ''virtuous girl,'' to disclaim responsibility for her burial by maintaining that she had only been a probationary member of his church, and a letter in her papers renounced even that membership. The Fall River Congregationalist establishment, proving more solicitous, assumed responsibility for her burial as an indigent.

Read more at: http://tinyurl.com/pr8zv3u

Sarah Maria Cornell is best-known for being the victim in a highly-publicized trial for murder. Found hanging and dead on the Durfee farm on the site of present-day Kennedy Park in Fall River, she was at first thought to be a suicide, but later a well-known Methodist minister, Ephraim K. Avery, was accused of her murder. He was acquitted, but could not return to the pulpit, and eventually removed to Ohio. Sarah Cornell's murder (if murder it was) remains unsolved.

Read more at: http://tinyurl.com/ltjz5pp

The story of the minister and the mill girl would put the town of Fall River at the center of a national controversy 60 years before Lizzie Borden would do the same. And the outcome would be just as inconclusive.

Read more at: http://tinyurl.com/knqs7v7

This picture is from the Library of Congress:

edited220sarahcornells.jpg

“At the time it was unbelievably shocking because it was a Methodist minister who was accused of the crime,” said Fall River Historical Society curator Michael Martins. “We do have people come in from time to time that are researching the Avery case. But obviously it is completely overshadowed by the Borden case.”

That, of course, would be the iconic Lizzie Borden, who was charged with the murders of her father and stepmother in Fall River 60 years after Cornell’s death. There are links between the two cases. A leader of the Fall River committee that pushed the investigation of Avery and aided his prosecution was Nathaniel Briggs Borden, a state representative and onetime Fall River mayor with business interests in the mills, said to be a distant cousin of Lizzie.

Lizzie Borden and Sarah Cornell have one other thing in common: They’re both buried in Fall River’s Oak Grove Cemetery, along with several others connected to their cases.

Read more at: http://tinyurl.com/me9ghlb

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Sat Apr 11, 2015 12:21 am

Yes, everyone, Poor Sarah. For every visit I have made to the Borden grave site, I have made twice the visits to Sarah's. Of course the Cornell incident was nowhere as well known, even in Fall River, as the Borden case.

And unless you believe that Sarah committed suicide, then that case has gone unsolved also.

In any event:

They have cleaned up the Borden Monument. Apparently there is this guy who does that sort of thing and he did it for free. Cool.

Thanks for the Cornell information Twins, and yes Curry, I think you would find the Cornell death interesting.

Below is a photo of the Borden Monument and how it looks today, clean.

Aamartin · Post by **Aamartin** » Sat Apr 11, 2015 8:33 am

I tired, valiantly to watch the show-- and could not continue

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Sat Apr 11, 2015 8:33 pm

You're welcome for the information on Sarah Cornell, MB. I have always found the Cornell Murder case intriguing. The Reverend Ephraim Kingsbury Avery’s background is just as interesting as Sarah Cornell’s background. I think the ‘good’ Reverend had a lustful eye for Sarah, from the first time he met her.

In the Murder By Gaslight link I provided above, it states:

Sarah met the Reverend Ephriam Avery when he was beginning his assignment as Methodist minister in Lowell. She asked him for job as a domestic servant. Avery claimed that she was never hired but another witness said she was hired but dismissed by Avery’s wife after one week of service because she did not like the attention her husband gave her.

I find it interesting that Dr. William Graves had treated Sarah for gonorrhea:

Before the trial ended, Sarah fled to Dover, New Hampshire, got another mill job and attempted to join a Methodist church there. Meantime, in Lowell, Dr. William Graves went to Rev. Avery to ask about Sarah’s whereabouts. He had been treating her for gonorrhea and she left without paying the bill. When the minister of the Dover church contacted Rev. Avery about Sarah, Avery told him that she was guilty of fornication, theft and lying, and he told him about the “foul disease” she had. His letter ended: “Now if you want her in your church, you may have her.”

Since Reverend Avery knew of Sarah's gonorrhea, why would he even want to have a sexual encounter with her? Two of a kind, perhaps? As for Ephraim Avery being a Minister, who was married, had children and had a lustful nature, he sure had a 'holier than thou' attitude toward Sarah.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Sat Apr 11, 2015 8:35 pm

MB, thank you for letting us know that the Borden Monument is now cleaned up. It looks great!

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Sat Apr 11, 2015 11:57 pm

Yes Twins:

Poor Sarah. She sure got around. She covered a lot of ground.

And to be labeled a good time girl in the 1830s, what a terrible tag to try and bear.

Though from most of what I have read she sure didn't help herself.

To bad it was long ago. Most of what we know came from Avery's trial. In the end I cannot see how the minister did not have anything to do with her death.

Today poor Sarah is all but forgotten, except by historians and historical buffs in fall river.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Sun Apr 12, 2015 6:00 am

Saw a little bit of the show. I really couldn't get into it. Maybe it seemed to much like a like a soap opera to me. And I hate those things. Too much drama.

nishmat · Post by **nishmat** » Sun Apr 12, 2015 12:57 pm

Hi,

I'm also interested watching the Lizzie Chronicles and have seen one episode. Looked promising. I'm in Europe, and I'd like to know how many episodes has already aired and if you've seen it what do you think about the series so far?

nishmat · Post by **nishmat** » Thu Apr 16, 2015 9:21 am

Great show and some nice artistic interpretations of the Fall River murders and Lizzie. Don't see why it seem so upsetting to some. The makers clearly states it's all fiction twisting facts with myths. I've been able to watch the pilot and keep up with episode 1-2 so far. Lizzie kissing a prostitute...

let's hope for full action with Nance O'Neil.

patsy · Post by **patsy** » Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:31 pm

Glad some are enjoying the Chronicles. I gave up and I'm seeing so many people reacting to this show as if it's all true, and most all seem to be sure Lizzie was a killer.

Fargo · Post by **Fargo** » Wed Apr 22, 2015 12:56 pm

Is it on every week?

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Wed Apr 22, 2015 6:51 pm

Fargo wrote:Is it on every week?

Yes, it is on every Sunday evening.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Wed Apr 22, 2015 6:53 pm

I found this article interesting, since a new topic thread has just been started recently regarding the Borden murder/suicide in 1848. (Highlighting is mine).

The Herald News
April 21, 2015

The Herald News asked Shelley Dziedzic, a Borden historian, author, and the script writer for the Pear Essential Players’ annual murder anniversary re-enactment, for a post-mortem on the most recent episode.

Q. What was the best line overall?

A. I positively roared when Lizzie pulled out the straight razor, then when her victim seemed not to be interested in looking at it, Lizzie pulled out the pistol and quipped, ‘Maybe you prefer this then,’ and shot (Mr. Flowers). She then spun around to slit the throat of poor Adele. I have to wonder if the straight razor idea originated in the true story of Lizzie’s Great-Aunt Eliza Darling Borden, Lawdwick’s wife, who threw her three children in the well, then slit her throat with her husband’s straight razor in the cellar of the house next door to 92 Second Street back in 1848. The script writers seem to pick out juicy morsels and salt their script with truisms as they please.

For the rest of the interview, clink on this link: http://tinyurl.com/mqll389

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Wed Apr 22, 2015 7:12 pm

I'm glad she enjoyed the episode, but, being picky and pedantic here, for a Borden historian maybe she should check on a few things. Eliza B. threw two children down a cistern, not three down a well! Not that I should be complaining of other people's memory failings!

How are the ratings for the series? If they are good they may commission more! Lizzie Borden would be pleased!