Lizzie: the legend, the truth and the final chapter

missy777 · Post by **missy777** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 10:16 pm

I'm reading Lizzie: the legend, the truth and the final chapter. I'm about a third of the way through. I'm finding it a little challenging to read due to the style. Has anyone else read this one?

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 11:45 pm

Yes.

Now.............carefully..................and slowly...............no sudden moves.............. please.

leisurely close the covers, remove your designer bookmark, place the book down, and move away.

Now call the fiction to fact riot control police.

They will come and take the fantasy book away.

Be calm............be calm................and put the book down and move away.

missy777 · Post by **missy777** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 11:51 pm

Lol!

That's about what I was thinking...was trying to be open, but it seems even to contradict itself.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:04 am

Yes Missy777:

When I first read the book I was impressed by the possibilities. Mr. Brown can sound very convincing.

It's a must read for anyone who has read a lot about the Borden Crime and knows most of the facts, otherwise it can be misleading.

Mr. Brown gives very little proof or does he tie loose ends together.

There is a school of study out there that believes in the Billy Borden Story and in Mr. Brown's account. Billy Borden did exist. But who is to say who he really was.......there is no proof.

Enjoy your read, believe what you wish, but be careful. Much and most of it is very circumstantial, inconclusive, and unproven.

Stay tune though, I'm sure you will hear from others on the forum who have also read Arnold Brown's book.

missy777 · Post by **missy777** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:13 am

I'm sure there are better and essential reads out there and I welcome suggestions.
I thought it was written in a really distracting, fanciful way. My choices thru the library here were extremely limited unfortunately...sigh.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:55 am

Do you prefer books that have a suspect in mind, missy777? Have you read Victoria Lincoln's 'novel', ' A Private Disgrace'? At least she did live in Fall River and her parents supposedly knew Lizzie! Very imaginative and you can get it on Kindle!

I would suggest Shelley's 'Resurrections', Rebello's 'Lizzie Past and Present' and 'Parallel Lives' but I don't know whether libraries stock them, they certainly don't in Australia. I had to wait for absolutely ages for Amazon to deliver them.

Sullivan's 'Goodbye Lizzie Borden' is worth a look, except he quotes Abby Borden's niece asserting that Lizzie killed a cat, which I don't believe.

missy777 · Post by **missy777** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:59 am

Thanks for all the suggestions! I don't mind if the book has a suspect in mind, just want it to be an intelligently or thoughtfully written book.
I will hunt down those titles; thanks!

P.S. What's the difference between the 'Quick Reply' option at bottom of page and the 'Post Reply' option at top of page?
Does it matter which I use? Thanks

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:36 pm

The difference between the two is that a quick reply is just straight dialogue.

You can not format or add attachments.

No changing or adding fonts etc. Just straight narrative reply.

missy777 · Post by **missy777** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:41 pm

Got it; thanks!

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:25 pm

.

It is difficult to discover a book written about the crime where a bias or crazy solution is not included.

But let us look at a couple of pivotal narratives, namely, Edwin, Edmund and Eddy.

Everyone should read Edwin Porter's, The Fall River Tragedy. 1893/1985 Reason alone is that it is the first factual account on the case.

The second landmark publication is Edmund Pearson's Trial of Lizzie Borden. Of course Pearson sees Lizzie guilty as hades. But it is the first modern look at the crime,(1937) touches on the facts, and really is the chronicle that started a host of new writers to come out with their objections to the fact Pearson thought Lizzie guilty.

Even so, it was almost a quarter century later, in 1961, that the next critical focus on the Borden Crime was published by Edward Radin, Lizzie Borden The Untold Story. Radin was very denunciatory of Pearson's account. He had to be. It was his hook into blaming the maid and building a case against her. In essence the first account to begin the "Lizzie didn't do it" litanies. Need to give Radin his dues. He did come to Fall River to investigate the crime, look up circumstantial witnesses, and ask questions.

Radin was soon followed by Victoria Lincoln in 1967, Agnes De Mille in 1968, Robert Sullivan in 1974, and Frank Speiring in 1984.

These were the trailblazing authors of the Borden Murders.

Later came David Kent and the Crazy World of Arnold Brown.

As a rudimentary start to any serious reader of the Borden crime Edwin, Edmund and Edward would be a good start. Where you go from there is your choice.

David Kent's Forty Whacks is a good read, (You would think he had a more original title) though he leans towards Lizzie's innocence, but probably the last consequential account written about the Borden murders.

missy777 · Post by **missy777** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:46 pm

Hi again,

That is a very thorough analysis of what's out there; thank you!

I was able to find Radin's Lizzie Borden the Untold Story; Lizzie by Speiring; Kent's Forty Whacks through the library.
I will look for a good deal on used copies of the Porter/Pearson books.

Lots to read now

Have a great day!

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:53 pm

Thanks Missy:

Before long you will have this crime solved.

missy777 · Post by **missy777** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:57 pm

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:10 pm

I highly recommend that you check out the Official Documents, which you can download. In addition to the Official Documents, there are four case related books, which you can download. (Edwin Porter's, The Fall River Tragedy, and Edmund Pearson's, Trial of Lizzie Borden, are both included).

Here is the link: https://tinyurl.com/y9dqob59

missy777 · Post by **missy777** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:35 pm

Excellent; thank you!

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:41 pm

You're welcome.

I hope you find those links helpful.

missy777 · Post by **missy777** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:47 pm

I'm sure I will; am going to check them out on my lunch break:)

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 5:38 pm

In a post above I talk about "The Crazy World of Arnold Brown.

In the sixties, when I lived for music like all young people did, I was into another crazy guy named Brown.

If you remember him you are showing your age. Late 60s

The album was called, "The Crazy World of Arthur Brown. He had a one hit wonder called FIRE.

Think about this. You are 16. You just started to drive. It's the weekend. You're riding around with your friends sharing a bottle of Mad Dog, then someone pops the 8 track tape into the player and this comes on:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLG1ys2CGcI

missy777 · Post by **missy777** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 5:58 pm

hahahahahaha!!

I know the song and YES, that would be wild to be listening to whilst cruising around! I am 46 and love 60's music:)

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 6:02 pm

Good for you Missy:

That one's for Aamartin, who likes to go off topic.

missy777 · Post by **missy777** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 6:04 pm

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:41 pm

I'm afraid that Frank Spiering is a terrible author, very unreliable. I read his 'Prince Jack'; an account of the Jack the Ripper murders, and I couldn't believe that he had been allowed to publish such fairy tales. I agree about Porter and Pearson, though.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:54 pm

Fire came along when I was a senior in high school...this guy is the precursor to Alice Cooper, KISS, Ozzie Osbourne and Marilyn Manson. I've seen the first three in concert and my oldest daughter has seen all of them. Music was evolving at that time with Led Zepp, the Beatles and Rolling Stones going mainstream and performers like Arthur Brown and Black Sabbath (to a lesser degree...Ozzie has always been mainstream deviant) appearing in the fringe.

This was 1968, 76 years after the Borden murders. I'm now 64 and thinking about the incredible societal changes a person born in the late 1880s would have experienced had they lived to age 90. Both of my grandmothers fell into this demographic. If I had been born in 1892, 64 years later I'd be watching Elvis Presley on the Ed Sullivan Show.

Wow.

missy777 · Post by **missy777** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:34 pm

Curryong wrote:I'm afraid that Frank Spiering is a terrible author, very unreliable.

Noted;) I ordered up all my library had and
Spiering was swept up in the mix...

missy777 · Post by **missy777** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:40 pm

debbiediablo wrote:This was 1968, 76 years after the Borden murders. I'm now 64 and thinking about the incredible societal changes a person born in the late 1880s would have experienced had they lived to age 90.

That would've been an amazing (and maybe a little scary) journey to have made:)

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:55 pm

I also remember Arthur Brown singing his hit song, 'FIRE'.

debbiediablo wrote:... If I had been born in 1892, 64 years later I'd be watching Elvis Presley on the Ed Sullivan Show.

Wow.

WOW is right, Debbie!

September 9th, 1956: Elvis' first appearance on The Ed Sullivan Show. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwWJXzobSp8

October 28th, 1956: Elvis' second appearance on The Ed Sullivan Show. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGZm7EOamWk

January 6th, 1957: Elvis' third and final appearance on The Ed Sullivan Show. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COFHGFZxtnY

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 11:02 pm

Wow, great stuff Deb:

Thanks for going off topic. I'm sure Missy won't mind.

And I'll keep your age a secret.

Yes, I saw Alice Cooper in Providence. Welcome to my Nightmare concert. Very theatrical performance. There was talk that it was going to be canceled at the time since it was rumored that Alice had fallen off the stage in a previous show and was hurt. Sure enough I could see the bandages under his costume, where he probably bruised or broke a ribs. I was not into Alice Cooper......but what the heck, there wasn't much to do that weekend.

I often went to concert just because......

One was a Rolling Stones concert in Boston. Also theatrical, and one of the most sexually perverted concert I ever attended. But the crowd loved it. Billy Preston was playing keyboards for the Stones at the time and he stole the show once he got going. With that huge Afro the people loved him.

When we went to concert we rarely ended up sitting in our seats. If you scouted the concert hall there were always better seats up front where people never showed up. At a Rod Stewart concert I dressed just like him, white silk shirt, long scarf, eye makeup, fingernail polish etc. I remember I moved to the side of the stage nearly resting my elbows on the stage to take a picture. Rod Steward was marching along the stage doing a song. He walked right up to me gave me a bow and threw me a kiss and I snapped the shot. It was great. The only way it could have been better was if I was gay.

But, gud, there were many, many concerts, including The Moody Blues, three times, Cat Stevens, Yes, ELO, Genesis, Three Dog Night , Yani......Yep, Yani and even Kenny G and John Tesh[/b]. Boy what a huge handsome guy. He came down the isle playing his keyboard and stopped right at my chair, and played there for a while. He was a big guy. There was Jethro Tull, Toni Braxton, James Taylor and Carly Simon, and on and on.

The one show I missed and regret was the Emerson, Lake and Palmer concert where keith Emerson is playing the baby grand piano and it begins to lift off the stage into the air while he is sill sitting and playing, then begins to revolve end over end. Today I still enjoy listening to Greg Lake. Amazing voice and balladeer.

Sadly, or perhaps a healthy sign of maturing, music has become noise. I only enjoy it when I'm in the mood.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 11:13 pm

I knew someone must have posted it on Utube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSm5IQFaTZA

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 11:32 pm

Lol...my age is no secret. I model my hair (color and style) after Emmy Lou Harris so there's little doubt how old I am. My favorite concert was AC/DC. Middle-aged men who duck walk in shorts with white school boy socks are pretty damn awesome.... The first time I lost my hearing following a concert was KISS; I was deaf for more than half an hour afterward. Kids were coming out of the mosh pit with t-shirts so sweat laden that they sagged to their knees. I always told my girls, "STAY OUT OF THE MOSH PIT!" which, of course, was exactly where they immediately headed. The mosh pit crowd would be packed in like sardines. Anyone overcome with the heat was passed unconscious over the heads of the other concert goers to the side of the stage where they were laid out to revive on their own...or not. My final rock concert was Guns N' Roses on March 20, 1993, their Skin N' Bones Tour. I must've finally started growing up my early 40s...

Sex, drugs and rock and roll. Lizzie had one out of three. No wonder she turned homicidal.

missy777 · Post by **missy777** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 11:45 pm

debbiediablo wrote: Sex, drugs and rock and roll. Lizzie had one out of three. No wonder she turned homicidal.

Oooh, which one? I'm intrigued...lots to learn!!

And I love AC/DC, too

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 11:48 pm

Mother Morphine.

missy777 · Post by **missy777** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 11:53 pm

mbhenty wrote:Wow, great stuff Deb:

Thanks for going off topic. I'm sure Missy won't mind.

No, I don't mind; this is good stuff. Sounds like you saw everyone! Three dog night & Cat Stevens must have been great!

missy777 · Post by **missy777** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 12:10 am

twinsrwe wrote:I highly recommend that you check out the Official Documents, which you can download.

I had started to read the trial transcripts last year and can't remember where I was, but I'll find it.
For tonight, I.think I'll get started with The Fall River Tragedy...thnx very much for all the links!

missy777 · Post by **missy777** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 12:15 am

debbiediablo wrote:Mother Morphine.

Wow..! I remember reading about her getting medicated after the murders, but didn't know about before.

Lot's to learn

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 12:47 am

Don't let me mislead you. She may not have been medicated prior to the murders. I'm unsure whether there is proof to the positive, but my money is on her having a bottle of Laudanum stashed somewhere.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 1:25 am

Funny thing, because there were so many over the counter drugs on the market in the late 19th century.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

There's a new play coming out this April or May on the Borden Trial. (August has not been ruled out for release)

The book is finished and being vetted.

But here are two stanzas from the book/play I am wiling to share for the first time. Much of the play is satire and is reflected in the play's poetry.

The 2 stanzas below is the reply by Eli Bence to Knowlton's question to why he did not sell Lizzie prussic acid.

Excerpt....... (keep in mind, this is a fictional account)

Now if she had asked for laudanum
or some cannabis extract
some codeine or some morphine
for some tooth pain to extract,

we would gladly sell her heroin
for a pain in her neck or back
but not an ounce of prussic acid
it’s not like speed or crack

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 2:52 am

Too funny, MB!

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 6:01 am

Very, very good, mb!

taosjohn · Post by **taosjohn** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 9:38 am

debbiediablo wrote:This was 1968, 76 years after the Borden murders. I'm now 64 and thinking about the incredible societal changes a person born in the late 1880s would have experienced had they lived to age 90. Both of my grandmothers fell into this demographic. If I had been born in 1892, 64 years later I'd be watching Elvis Presley on the Ed Sullivan Show.

Wow.

"My grandpa drove a horse and buggy but my father used the train
I worked and bought a Cadillac but my son, he flies a plane
You know I never thought a thing like that would ever really come to be..."

Chuck Berry

missy777 · Post by **missy777** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 2:07 pm

debbiediablo wrote: my money is on her having a bottle of Laudanum stashed somewhere.

Got it;)

missy777 · Post by **missy777** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 2:08 pm

Very witty, MB!

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 2:57 pm

Thanks Deb.- Missy.

By the Naked Pear Tree, the trial of Lizzie Borden in poetry and verse is now in the queue and editor's hands awaiting preliminaries.

A Cover and Frontispiece has yet to be chosen.

Reading poetry is not everyone's forte'.

Old style and rhyming poetry is becoming a thing of the past, but there is still some of us who will bend the rules so far but not as far as it has gone. Today, a note to the milkman can be sanctioned as poetry.......if there were such a thing as "milkmen."

Making such a book readable to the general public is not an easy task. Thus the author has aired on the side of humor. "Cat in the Hat" genre verse where even those who don't like poetry should find some merit.

In the play, Eli Bence is allowed to testify, unlike in the real trial. His character is one of a chump who is thrilled to perform for the court. He even brings his flute which he begs to be allowed to play. (Reminder: This is fiction)

Every witness that is placed on the stand has his/her own quirky and idiosyncratic personality, all recited in poetry.

As I have always professed, there is always room for another book in the Borden saga. Whether fact or fiction.

Though I call it a "book" it is really a "play"—one meant to be performed, but fashioned so it could be easily read and action effortlessly performed on the stage in the readers mind.

I hope that readers will agree with me.

MBhenty

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 5:48 pm

missy777 wrote:
twinsrwe wrote:I highly recommend that you check out the Official Documents, which you can download.
I had started to read the trial transcripts last year and can't remember where I was, but I'll find it.
For tonight, I.think I'll get started with The Fall River Tragedy...thnx very much for all the links!

You are very welcome, Missy.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 5:53 pm

Love the 2 stanzas, MB! Very clever.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Mon Mar 02, 2015 2:25 pm

As everyone has experienced the past couple of days, the forum was down. It's been fixed and is back up, as you see. But we have lost a couple of posts/days. Two to be exact.

This post is one of the posts lost.

So I am reposting, since it is fresh in my mind.

As you know I posted a couple of stanzas from the new upcoming Play, By the Naked Pear Tree.

Stefani felt that it be a good idea if I sampled a couple more stanzas from the play, let out a hook, and here they are.

.......................................................................................................................

Here we have more testimony.

It is the beginning of Knowlton questioning Alice Russell. But before he can begin his questioning Alice begins questioning the attorney instead, which annoys him greatly.

In the play Alice Russell is seen as a busy-body who is desperate for a man.

As soon as Alice takes the stand she starts her questioning......interrogation in reverse.

And it goes something like this:

DIRECT-EXAMINATION

Russell—
Now Mr. Knowlton
please state your age
of this crime you do try
what’s your fee, what’s your wage?

Knowlton—
Now, now Miss Russell
it does not work that way
I ask all the questions
for which you must obey.

Russell—
Sorry Mr. Knowlton
never done this before.

Knowlton—
I forgive you dear lady
just don’t do it anymore.

Russell—
I’m ready now dear man
any questions you may draw
you may proceed at leisure
flap your lips, move your jaw.

Knowlton—
Please, Miss Russell
give me a chance to speak
and don’t interrupt
when the questions I tweak.

Russell—
It will not happen again
you see, I live alone
often talk to myself
since I don’t have a phone,
if I could just find a man
that I could call my own
a lover or a butcher
to throw me a bone
before I get too old
and they call me a crone.

Knowlton—
I understand Miss Russell
but let me set the tone.

Now, I’m afraid to ask
yet I need to try
tell us where you live
any facts that apply.

etc., etc.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Mon Mar 02, 2015 6:54 pm

love the extra stanzas from the play, MB! Thank you sharing these with us.

missy777 · Post by **missy777** » Tue Mar 03, 2015 2:26 pm

You are very talented, MB

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Tue Mar 03, 2015 5:39 pm

Thanks Twins.

Thanks Missy for the kind words.

Yes, one more little morsel.

The play is not completely done in verse. There is normal dialogue, though about 80% is in verse, and most of the verse lampooned.

(In the play Clarence Darrow and William Jennings Bryan are playing poker to determine if Lizzie is guilt)

In the scene below we have straight dialogue. (some of it borrowed from factual statements)

Julian Ralph, Clarence Darrow and Jennings Bryan witness Lizzie as she walks into the courtroom. They are fascinated by her mild mannered image.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ralph—
Finally! Lizzie Borden. There sits the most infamous woman who ever lived. My, my—she appears very ladylike, almost gentle. I dare add, modest even.

(Darrow chuckles and sneers)

Darrow—
What did you expect, Medusa? Look at her. She commands absolute mastery of herself. An attorney could not wish for a more exemplary client. Polished, unassuming, yet composed and poise. She makes her sensations and emotions inconspicuous and enigmatic to an impertinent public, most who know she is innocent but believe she is guilty.

Bryan—
If I am to subscribe to your sentiment Clarence, she is the most injured of innocents or the blackest of monsters.

Ralph—
She either hacked her Father and Stepmother to pieces with the furious brutality of the ogre in Poe’s story of the Rue Morgue, or some other person did it, and she suffers the double torture of losing her parents and being wrongfully accused of their murders.

Darrow—
Now, now, gentlemen. Have some compassion. At the very least, try to exercise some objectivity. Don’t kill and eat the chicken before it grows feathers. I am aware that I am the elementary pupil here when it comes to particulars about this case. The mind is not as sharp as it once was, and reflecting back to my days at academia, I remember very little, but…

Bryan—
I come very prepared counselor, and I intend to see justice served. Though she appears angelic to you gentlemen, I am convinced she contains the devil himself in her heart.

missy777 · Post by **missy777** » Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:07 pm

Very entertaining; I like WJB's assertion that she 'contains the devil himself in her heart'!

missy777 · Post by **missy777** » Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:27 pm

It's going to be a great night for reading! Just got back from the library and picked up Forty Whacks and Lizzie. Time to get cozy!