Emma: possible or not?

[MysteryReader]

Okay, I read this in a book (I didn't care for the book & I mentioned it already) but do you think it is possible or not?

Emma killed Abby (the reason given was that her hatred grew due to Abby's treatment of Lizzie as a child, Abby wanted Emma & Lizzie to move out, etc.) and then later, had to kill Andrew because he saw her.

It's laid out that Emma got 3 different costumes that belonged to males (she was involved in some group that put on plays and had plenty to choose from) and took a test run while wearing each one (separately, of course) to see if anyone recognized her. She knew everyone's schedule and was able to get back into the house. While wearing one outfit, she killed Abby and as she was leaving, Andrew recognized her. She killed him, too.

There is more to the story but I want to know if you think it's possible?

[twinsrwe]

IMO, no, I don't believe it is possible. We know for a fact that Andrew was hacked to death in the sitting room. So, this author wants us to believe that Andrew saw Emma kill Abby, and then he went to the sitting room to take a nap? Really??? I don't buy it!

[Curiousmind2014]

Twin I believe she is trying to say that Andrew saw Emma while she was leaving and recognized her.

I don't know about the possibility of her affiliations with a theatre group. However, it is interesting because apparently it is believed that Lizzie hosted parties at Maplecroft wherein theatre groups were invited.

I really believe this is a puzzle. Finding one piece is like finding links to 10 other things.

[Curryong]

How would Emma know that Bridget was feeling seedy on that day though and had to rest in her room before lunch, even if she knew Andrew would snooze on the couch and uncle John was going to visit?

Emma would certainly have known everyone's schedules, but according to schedule,Thursday was Bridget's afternoon off. Surely Emma would have put off Andrew's killing until the afternoon if that had been the case?

I can remember a case of a female journalist for one of the London tabloids going, as an assignment for her newspaper, dressed and professionally made up like a male, into her local pub, to see whether she could get away with her disguise. (She was a tall girl with few curves.)

She wasn't challenged or anything at the time, but the next day the landlord of the pub and his friend said to her "You weren't that peculiar man who came into the bar yesterday, were you?" In other words, that kind of masquerade is easier said than done. And nowadays we are USED to wearing jeans and pants. In those days, with vastly different clothing, men and women moved differently!

Emma did go to the theatre later in life with friends, so both sisters enjoyed watching plays. There's no references, as far as I know though, to either Emma or Lizzie indulging in amateur dramatics.

By the way, I had very strange experiences over the last couple of days when I tried to get into the Lizzie Borden website. A notice kept coming up telling me something about a data error and being banned from accessing the website! It stated I should call an administrator. Bit difficult if you can't get onto the site in the first place! I tried from three computers. It seems to have righted itself now, thank goodness!

[twinsrwe]

Twin I believe she is trying to say that Andrew saw Emma while she was leaving and recognized her. ...

Curious, that’s true, I was playing a Devil’s Advocate.

I do not think the scenario that Mystery presented us with is possible.

[twinsrwe]

... By the way, I had very strange experiences over the last couple of days when I tried to get into the Lizzie Borden website. A notice kept coming up telling me something about a data error and being banned from accessing the website! It stated I should call an administrator. Bit difficult if you can't get onto the site in the first place! I tried from three computers. It seems to have righted itself now, thank goodness!

I know what you mean, Curry. When I attempted to log-in and got the same message you did, I sent Stefani an e-mail. Stefani has recently provided us with an e-mail address, in the topic titled, These Members Should Contact Me ASAP, that we can use to contact her; it is: [email protected]. Suggestion: Program this e-mail address in your contact list so that you can get a hold of her when you are not able to log-in on the forum.

[MysteryReader]

I didn't think it was possible either. I'll locate the book in a bit and fill you in but according to "Emma" she wasn't going to kill Andrew- just Abby. Curry, I find it fascinating that a female can go unrecognized by either those who know her or those who don't suspect they're looking at a female. :-)

I also couldn't log on, either. Thanks for the email address.

[twinsrwe]

... I also couldn't log on, either. Thanks for the email address.

You're welcome!

[MysteryReader]

Okay, I have located the book (I Did It! which is mentioned in another post) but here is how it was explained as "Emma" told the author in a dream:

*correction: she ("Emma") collected items for the needy and that is where she got her 3 outfits. This was done a month before she left for Fairhaven.

*For her dress rehearsal to see if anyone noticed it was her- she went home on a Sunday while everyone else was at Mass. Since she had had good results with no one noticing her, she went to New Bedford and inquired the cost of renting a horse and buggy or carriage.

* I mentioned Thursday because she knew everyone's schedule (it is mentioned in the book "I chose Thursday in the month of August as the day I felt no one would be there to interfere with what had to be done." p.21)

*It's not mentioned how or where Emma got a hatchet but this is what "Emma" told the author "All was packed including the weapon. This extra bag was going with me to Fairhaven when I visited my cousins, on July 22nd."

*Apparently at one point in all of this planning and dropping clues, she dressed as a man and went to Andrew to inquire about renting a room in one of his buildings to sell alcohol, knowing full well that he would refuse her.

**On the morning of August 4th**

This is what "Emma" told the author (I'm just putting in some of the parts):

"The home was to be free of everyone except Abby and Bridget. Bridget had her routine and would be ironing in her room that morning. With her on the third floor, she would not hear a thing. (Apparently Emma told her cousin that she was going to Onset to spend the night with friends on Aug. 3rd. She took a buggy at 2:15 AM and drove back home, arriving around 5:12AM).

She had stolen her father's keys and thereby could enter and leave the front door. She didn't know that Uncle John was there. She finally can get on with what she intended. Remember the note? "Emma" says that she found "Abby sitting on the bed nearest the bureau and had a note in her hand that she was reading." Emma killed Abby and didn't stop until the anger left her (remember we talked about it being overkill).

Skip the rest of the events until the death of Andrew: Lizzie went outside after putting Andrew's coat behind his head (he still wasn't feeling well) and in "Emma's" words: "I looked back once again and Papa was bending over to untie his shoes. The jacket had fallen and as he tried to reach for it; he looked out into the hall and saw me. He stood, his mouth opened and he took a good look, he knew it was me! My hair had fallen from under the hat and my mustache was askew." He did ask her why. She mentioned that anger filled her - he would know that I killed Abby and I would go to jail.

On the way back to Fairhaven, she dropped the hatchet in the Quequechan River.

[Curryong]

Thanks for the e-mail info, twins. I will put that on my list. A weird experience, eh!

I remember reading somewhere that the Brownells Emma was staying with were related in some way but it went back to some marriage of great-great grandfather Borden, or something. They weren't cousins.

Bridget ironing in her room! What the....! This wasn't a time when you could iron miles away from a heat source. Even Lizzie must have found it hard ironing those hankies in the dining room. Even if you wanted a cool iron the irons still had to be heated up in the first place and that meant a stove. There was no stove in Bridget's room, and anyway she stated in her testimony that she always washed on a Tuesday and she had done her ironing for the household on the Wednesday, presumably in the kitchen.

As per my post of yesterday, it takes more than a suit of clothes and a false mo to pull off a disguise as a man. I'd have liked to have seen Emma strolling into a livery stable complete with false moustache, (stables usually had a number of men hanging about, remember Hall's over the road in Second St) and ordering a horse and buggy in a natural-sounding male voice without being noticed or stared at and remembered. They'd probably think that it was a joke, then when news of the murder in Fall River on that day got around...!

How did Emma know that Abby was in the guest bedroom (which was rarely used unless there were visitors) if she didn't know Uncle John was staying? It would hardly be the first place to look. And where was Lizzie while Abby's murder was going on? Hardly ironing in the kitchen if Bridget had the irons.

Also, if Andrew's murder was on impulse, (why was she hanging around for ninety minutes?) how did Emma's suit get away with being unsplashed with blood? Did she return the horse and buggy to the stables with her pants and sleeves splashed over with blood? Yikes!

[MysteryReader]

Curry:

I agree! I don't really care for the book (I'm not big on someone coming to tell their story to another in a dream) but it did get me thinking. Yes, the ironing was a red flag as well as the author saying "Emma" said it was a hot day!

Okay, for Abby in the bedroom: "As I approached the second floor landing however I was astonished to see the door to the guest room shut! Who was here? Being in Fairhaven, I had no knowledge of a visitor. I would have to see who it was when the household would awaken." She goes on to state she heard Bridget moving around and going downstairs (this was a little before 6AM). She also states that she sat on a shelf inside her closet and heard some splashing coming from the washstand in the guest bedroom (it was short-lived so she guessed a male, perhaps, Uncle John?). Then she hears him speaking to Bridget.

Lizzie: supposedly, Lizzie was supposed to be attending the meeting at her Temperance Group (she said she had to make sure Lizzie wasn't in the house and Andrew was leaving on his various errands).

Abby: It was around 9:10 AM (I'm not sure how "Emma" knew the timing) and she heard Abby coming into the guest bedroom. We know what happens then.

90 minutes accounted for: "Emma" states it like this: "...I looked in the mirror and there wasn't much blood and I would be able to walk out and no one would notice if I hurried away quickly." Oh no! There's Lizzie coming back upstairs "I stood behind the partially closed door, terrified and paralyzed. It took 7 minutes to kill Abby and 12 minutes of waiting before Lizzie went back downstairs."

About 9:32 AM, Emma is able to escape back to her bedroom and continues "I had some old cloths in my dresser that I used for medicinal purposes. TO BE CONTINUED...

[MysteryReader]

Sorry, the post was getting a bit long...

"Emma" goes on to say this "I cleaned off the hatchet and put it back inside my jacket (apparently there was a pocket on the inside of the male's coat). I took the cloth with me... I used more rags and put them inside my closet in a little box that was left there. I made sure I locked the door behind me."

She begins to creep downstairs quietly listening for noise. She heard Lizzie and Bridget (Lizzie needed to heat the flats and Bridget needed more water). She almost made it out but heard voices in the yard. She crept back upstairs to her bedroom to wait.

The bells of City Hall rang, it was now 10 AM. She was getting a bit worried as she needed to return the buggy and horse and get back to the Brownell's for supper. She waits another 10 minutes to make sure the coast is clear. She checked on Abby and the room but nothing had changed (she took the paper Abby had been reading. And I'm not sure what she thought was going to happen in there while she wasn't looking! )

So at about 10:30 AM she creeps back downstairs. She hid in the hall closet because she heard someone at the door (it was Andrew) and waited while Lizzie tended to him. Then we know what happened once he spotted her.

[Curiousmind2014]

Thanks for taking an effort to type all that up Mystery.

Like many theories, this one has many holes. However, Emma's job would have been a lot more easy if Lizzie and Bridget were her accomplices. Bridget was out there looking out for any trouble from outside the house. Lizzie would probably be assisting Emma in getting cleaned up and providing support to Emma in case Abby was successful at dodging Emma.

In regards to Andrew's death, IMO it definitely came as a surprise to Lizzie. Based on the documented reaction from Lizzie and the relationship she shared with her father, she was shocked, and maybe felt betrayed that the murderer killed her father too.

I can understand why everyone believes there was one killer. However, I can't understand why everyone want's to believe it was one mastermind who planned it all out. If one had to put probability of suspicion/ being caught on each crucial event that took place, on that day; they would soon realize that the killer had to be extremely fortunate to have escaped. Unless one believes in presence of accomplices.

[pld0128]

To have had all the events happen with no witnesses or accomplices, it would take an extraordinary (and perhaps unbelievable) degree of luck and timing. I know I''m stating the obvious but, just saying'…….

[twinsrwe]

Thanks for the e-mail info, twins. I will put that on my list. A weird experience, eh! ...

You're welcome, Curry. Yes, it was a weird experience! I thought for sure the forum had been hacked, especially since it was down for so many days.

[twinsrwe]

WOW, Mystery, that is a lot of typing! Thank you for filling us in on the entire story. It's rather mine-blogging isn't it?

[Curiousmind2014]

So true PLd. I truly believe there were accomplices.

Unfortunately, not many support the theory.

[MysteryReader]

Thanks y'all! I don't believe that theory either. I think there was one murderer and an accomplice. I also think that Lizzie was shocked by the death of her father. Of course, "Emma" claims to the author that she told Lizzie that she was the killer and this was Lizzie's reply:

(she had a look of horror on her face):
"You killed Papa and Abby? I always thought it must have been someone who had such hatred and rage! You dressed as a man and hid in your room?" (there were several other questions). Her last words to Emma were" You are a Christian and believe yourself to be charitable and yet you let me, your sister, go on trial for what you did!"

Basically, Emma left Maplecroft and they never spoke again. But of course, I don't believe any of this.

[Curryong]

Yes, Thankyou, Mystery, for typing all that out, sore arms, I'm sure!

Crikey, what a rigmarole, don't know where to start! I have never heard that either Lizzie or Emma took part in amateur theatricals, and even if they did why would Emma have men's suits at her disposal? Was she the wardrobe mistress?

I've been in amateur dramatic companies when I was a lot younger than I am now, and unless it was a costume drama or a high society thing, we all wore our own clothes. Maybe I'm missing something here!

Did Emma call Andrew Papa? I've never noted anything but 'Father', though maybe she did.

Lizzie waited until 1905 before they discussed things and she accused her sister of allowing her to take the blame! How forgiving! Emma visiting Lizzie in jail, discussing her chances of being hanged with her lawyers and everything, and all along, she was the guilty one!

(Before 1905, they had more or less lived peaceably together, though I'm sure both sisters were set in their ways and there were some irritating little habits grating on each other's nerves. They did undertook some trips together too.)

Uncle John was the first downstairs that morning. (I like the touch of only a splash of water to wash his face, the grub!) He sat in the sitting room, (presumably reading a newspaper) and adjusting the blinds.

Bridget gave testimony that she was in the kitchen after coming downstairs (and presumably the dining room, laying the table) and did not see John until breakfast when he, Abby and Andrew sat down together.

So I don't know where Emma hearing them speak together comes from, especially as Bridget never, ever went upstairs to the front of the house, unless there's something about Bridget and Uncle John we don't know!

There seems to be an awful lot of waiting around after Emma had disposed of Abby. Would it have taken till 10am to have killed so savagely and then cleaned herself up a bit? And where was this horse and buggy until well after 11am?

I never knew there was a nervous stranger in a buggy right in front of the Borden house that day. Dr Handy was observed in his buggy in 2nd Street, twisting himself around and looking nervous, but he was seen to drive off.

There was a pale-faced man tottering along the sidewalk, who was seen by Dr Handy. Although never identified by him this man was reputed to be a local alcoholic.

If you look in the witness statements I don't think anyone observed a buggy parked outside the Borden house from 5am until after 11am. That is a very long time indeed and horses do need water, as well.

[snokkums]

Okay, I read this in a book (I didn't care for the book & I mentioned it already) but do you think it is possible or not?

Emma killed Abby (the reason given was that her hatred grew due to Abby's treatment of Lizzie as a child, Abby wanted Emma & Lizzie to move out, etc.) and then later, had to kill Andrew because he saw her.

It's laid out that Emma got 3 different costumes that belonged to males (she was involved in some group that put on plays and had plenty to choose from) and took a test run while wearing each one (separately, of course) to see if anyone recognized her. She knew everyone's schedule and was able to get back into the house. While wearing one outfit, she killed Abby and as she was leaving, Andrew recognized her. She killed him, too.

There is more to the story but I want to know if you think it's possible?

The only problem with this is, especially the first part of the post is that Emma was in the house let alone in Fall River. She was in Fairhaven. All though one way it could have happened is that the dates were wrong on the dates, and she was in town.

The other way is through Lizzie. She relays her feeling towards Abby to Lizzie and Lizzie reacting.I've always had the attitude that Lizzie was the hot head out of the two girls.

[Curryong]

Yes, Snokkums, I think you're right. Even though people thought that Lizzie was a very calm and unemotional person, I think that underneath, unlike Emma, she was more impulsive and go-ahead.

[snokkums]

Yup, the cool calm collected Emma and hot head Lizzie. What a mix in the house, along with tight was Andy!