Stop the Madness: Lizzie Borden Chronicles

[Curiousmind2014]

History always has different versions and varying perspectives. However, in my opinion, I have never seen a historic persona manhandled by fiction as incorrectly as Lizzie Borden. If Lizzie was alive, and she saw the Chronicles; it would have definitely urged her to take an axe/hatchet/meat loafer (again or for the first time can be argued) and do the needful!

I am wondering if Fall River Historical Society can do anything about it. I would assume they are the custodians of the history of Fall River and Lizzie Borden. In my eyes, they should take a step towards governing historical facts, persona of Lizzie Borden and others involved. The producers of the Lizzie Borden Chronicles made an effort, by error or by will, to use the name Nance O'Keefe instead of Nance O'Neil. They could have easily done the same with the centric characters including Lizzie. I would like to believe there are more people to lobby for Lizzie than Nance O'Neil.

I can easily avoid watching the Chronicles. However, it hurts to see a historic persona portrayed so incorrectly. Ignorance ain't blissful. I would like to get some support from my friends on this forum to revere if not respect the fact that:

1. The true Lizzie Borden story entertains and fascinates all of us, more than ever with time.
2. The true Lizzie Borden story supports interest of the commons in the Fall River History.
3. Lizzie Borden herself, with a reasonable doubt, might not have been the murderer!

I like to be happy and spread happiness all over. I apologize to all of for bringing up a cry child version of me. In a way, it epitomizes the magnitude of remorse.

If anyone belongs to the Fall River Historical Society, I recommend you to perceive me as someone who wants the Lizzie Borden story to remain alive through facts than fiction. Popular culture is welcome to fictionalize it as long as it has no direct reference to the true identities of the people involved.

Do let me know if we can do anything about this matter.

[Aamartin]

I think the whole show, well, sucks

[Curryong]

I'm afraid I have to agree about the Chronicles. I tried to watch but kept getting annoyed, so it was a fruitless exercise.

I would love someone to produce a film (TV or even big screen) showing all members of the Borden family as they really were, and portraying all facts (that came out in the trial) correctly. However, even if you did that you would get dissenters. Everyone carries their own version of 'the truth' around with them, don't they?

We have members here, for instance, who firmly believe that Uncle John had something to do with the murders and because of a business deal gone wrong, let angry intruders come to the house. Others have put forward a scenario of Emma disguising herself and slipping away from Fairhaven to commit murder.

As a traditionalist 'Lizzie did it' person, I and other members would object to those scenarios being put onscreen.

For me, bad though some scenes were, the nearest production to 'the truth' of what happened to the Bordens was the TV film decades ago and that was mainly due to Elizabeth Montgomery's performance as Lizzie, which I thought was excellent. (Don't agree that Lizzie stripped off, though!)

Like that other very famous murder of the 19th century, Jack the Ripper, I think the only thing that would work for most students of the case would be a TV documentary featuring what is known and then have some talking heads discussing different (speculative) murderers at the end, perhaps. Might be a bit dull for the average viewer, though.

[twinsrwe]

I agree with what all of you stated about The Lizzie Borden Chronicles. I know the series is suppose to be a fictionalized account of actual events and people surrounding Lizzie Borden after her controversial acquittal of the double murder of her father and stepmother in 1892. BUT, The Lizzie Borden Chronicles are taking things way over the top into La-La Land.

I lost interest in watching the series when William Borden appeared in the story line. As if that was not BAD enough he threatens ‘the girls’ with blabbing to the authorizes about his discovery of finding a dead baby’s bones in the basement, for his ‘rightful’ cut of Andrew’s fortune!!! Oh, and let’s not forget that Mr. Almy is to get Andrew’s entire estate, and then some.

I don’t know as though the Fall River Historical Society curators, Michael Martins and Dennis A. Binette, can do anything more than we can. However, there is a Fall River Historical Society’s Facebook page. Patricia Almy posted the following commented under 'The Lizzie Borden Chronicles’ section: ‘‘Lizzie was acquitted and she did NOT murder Mr, Almy, a relative of mine. I am so upset the Hollywood rendition that is a lie. Does anyone else feel this way?’ Source: http://tinyurl.com/m695n76

I am not on Facebook, but if any forum member is, then perhaps a comment on the Fall River Historical Society’s Facebook page would be an appropriate place.

While doing some online research on another subject, I found a really interesting article regarding The Lizzie Borden Chronicles from The Herald News, Fall River, MA. 4/13/2015 (Check out who is being asked her likes and dislikes): http://tinyurl.com/nyvnad9

NOTE, Deborah Allard’s closing statement for this article: Interested in giving your take on a future episode of 'The Lizzie Borden Chronicles?' Email [email protected] .

There are also a large number of articles online about The Lizzie Borden Chronicles, that give us the option to make a comment.

[Franz]

Does uncle John appear in it?

[Curiousmind2014]

I think the whole show, well, sucks

Yeah AAmartin. It definitely is extremely disappointing. It also chooses to ignore aspects of society and culture back then, which has such a high relevance to the story of Lizzie Borden. It keeps it shallow enough, that the clothing alone is the only indicator of a Victorian era. If I had to keep my eyes shut and ears open, I would not have known if the story dates back 120yrs, especially with that music.

[Curiousmind2014]

I'm afraid I have to agree about the Chronicles. I tried to watch but kept getting annoyed, so it was a fruitless exercise..........

I am glad that you agree with me Curryong. It definitely is annoying. Like you, I believe that the life of Lizzie Borden should be portrayed by facts than fiction. As we concurred, everyone has their own versions, but all versions are based on facts we chose to see and ignore. There is no "reasonable doubt" in my mind that once, they get to know each character, based on the facts, they would love the whole story and will be fascinated by it in the capacity as we are. Probably it might lead into 5 more movies, each focusing on a plausible possibility.

I was extremely excited about the Chronicles hoping that availability of time would help them focus on character development, setting up the plot right, building up the intensity, expressing the tensions within the Borden home and outside of it. However, they decided to screw things up big time. They have converted an animal loving, motherless woman, who was a patron of arts and literature, into a serial killer without even allowing the audience to know her better and relate to her. It has been two episodes and she has committed 3 murders, locking a woman in a casket after kissing her.

In regards to the movie "Legend of Lizzie Borden" with Elizabeth Montgomery, I liked the details they had gone through. Of course it could have been more detailed, but I believe they did a fair job. I still recall a dialogue wherein the women were not happy with Lizzie wearing a a colorful dress than a black one for the funeral. It might not have been the case, but it does give one some idea about life in the Victorian Era. However, the popularity of the movie opened up the plausibility of a naked Lizzie, incestuous relationship and more. It might have been the case, but I rather acquit a murderer than convict an innocent soul.

Let us hope someone makes a great TV show based on the facts! I would like to believe it would be loved and welcomed by all.

[Curiousmind2014]

I agree with what all of you stated about The Lizzie Borden Chronicles. I know the series is ---------.

Hey Twin. They definitely did everything to turn off true Lizzie Borden story admirers. I guess they are going to do that to many people whose forefathers were a part of that history. Especially if the show claims to murder one of them. I won't be surprised if they murder some more, based on the rate at which they are going.

Thanks for forwarding me the article which mentions of an interview with Stefani Koorey. She definitely is less perturbed by it than I am. However, her answers did point towards the fact that she was not totally happy with the show. I would have liked if she took an assertive stance to reiterate that the real story is more fascinating than the fictional accounts. The Chronicles in no way, are a true reflection of her life after her acquittal.

[Curiousmind2014]

Does uncle John appear in it?

No Franz. Unfortunately not. This is what happens when the only research one does is watch the movies made in the past. Uncle John is a crucial part of everything that happened in the Borden house that day. I think it would fascinate people to know of some things that he did, which would have definitely made him a suspect than a by-passer.

I think the only version where I saw Uncle John was A&E's version of the Lizzie Borden Story. It was the best representation of the Lizzie Borden story and it embedded many little things for a 45min show. I think their portrayal of Emma was a lot more accurate than made by many others. Emma by no means was a meek, submissive woman whose life as full of sadness and around and abouts Lizzie.

[twinsrwe]

Hey Curious, you're welcome for the newspaper article of Stefani being asked her likes and dislikes of the Chronicles. I wonder if there were other things that she said, which were not printed.

[Curiousmind2014]

Yes I agree with you Twin.. Stefani has always been direct and has contributed a lot towards keeping the legend of Lizzie Borden alive. Many of the answers there seem to be truncated. I am sure Stefani found many other things out of place than the mere ages of Emma and Lizzie when their mom passed away.

[patsy]

Thanks for the link to the article in which Stefani has been able to straighten out a few points. I agree there were probably more things she observed although she may not have had an opportunity to say more. I noticed Deborah's article spells Stefani's name as Stafani.

[twinsrwe]

Yes I agree with you Twin.. Stefani has always been direct and has contributed a lot towards keeping the legend of Lizzie Borden alive. Many of the answers there seem to be truncated. I am sure Stefani found many other things out of place than the mere ages of Emma and Lizzie when their mom passed away.

I'm thinking Stefani did, too. It would be cool, if Stefani would post her thoughts on this thread.

[twinsrwe]

Thanks for the link to the article in which Stefani has been able to straighten out a few points. I agree there were probably more things she observed although she may not have had an opportunity to say more. I noticed Deborah's article spells Stefani's name as Stafani.

You're welcome, Patsy. Yes, I also noticed the misspelling of Stefani's name.

[Richard]

Turning Lizzie into a serial killer is an interesting concept, and with the right of dramatic license, I don't see any reason not to try it. I just don't like the results. I don't like the story line, the acting, the film making. But even if we dismiss that on the grounds of taste you have two outstanding issues.

1) They are dealing with historical people, including folks like William Almy and Marshall Hilliard. Even Siringo the Pinkerton is based on a real detective. These people have their own legacies and descendants and I recall that at least one Almy relative has objected to the ugly portrayal of Mr. Almy as portrayed by John Heard. IF we assume the innocence of Lizzie Borden, she suffered more than we can imagine. To portray her as a maniac of a Hannibal Lecter variety is deeply offensive to the historic woman. If she were guilty of the crimes in real life, the portrayal is still offensive since they have effective turned tragedy and death into pop culture entertainment without any regard to the dignity of the actual victims.

2) Even if you accept Lizzie as a serial killer, I can't imagine why they would ignore almost everything about Lizzie's world that made it interesting, opting to go for a purely fantastical Fall River. Even Deadwood, which romanticized and distorted a lot of history (I recently did a study of the portrayal of Calamity Jane on that show) did provide dignity to the people they were taking liberties with. And they got a hell of lot about Deadwood right, even if they made some distortions in the details.

In the Lizzie Borden Chronicles, I rarely feel as if the show is taking place in Fall River. There was only one passing reference to “the mills” and there is no mention at all of the textile industry. You don’t hear Mr. Flowers telling his stooges to dump the body in the Quequechan, or see characters with names like Durfee or Chace. No references to the old families who built the city, or places like Mount Hope Bay. Not a word about the Fall River Line. No mention of any cultural or religious diversity in the town. They mention “the Hill” but in the scene where Lizzie is confronting Mrs. Kenney outside her house, the neighborhood looks almost barren. Not a single shot of a street car, or a downtown area that doesn't look like a Montana mining town from the Gold Rush.

Would it have taken any real effort to pepper the scripts with some authenticity of old Fall River?

When I think about it, I'm more put off by the textile industry NOT being mentioned in the show than I am about Lizzie being turned into a serial killer (which could work if the acting and the scripts were better). I don't see any reason why they would turn Fall River into a town that resembles more the Dakota Territories during the Gold Rush than the New England mill city it really was.

My interpretation of why they did all this is demographics and marketing. They are clearly making a show tailored to the fans of other serial killer shows like Hannibal, Dexter and Bates Motel. Capturing Lizzie Borden is less important than capturing that market of gore fans. This is the reason why they got an actress who looks like a teenager to play Lizzie and they used the music (bad-ass bluegrass and techno psychedelia) that they did. It is pure marketing.

Again, I'm not opposed to a serial killer Lizzie, but they could have least done something with the depth and intelligence of True Detective or Twin Peaks. Shows like that typically have a visionary writer/producer behind it who oversees quality control and doesn't underrate the intelligence of the audience. This show has no such overseers and does nothing but pander to mass tastes. As a result, the reviews are poor, the ratings are slipping, and in the end the show will be an obscure curio in the cabinet of Lizzie Borden Completists.

[Curiousmind2014]

Turning Lizzie into a serial killer is an interesting concept, and with the right of dramatic license..............

Well said Richard. I would rather acquit ten criminals, than put an innocent soul behind the bars. I personally believe Lizzie was under a pseudo-house arrest for the latter part of her life. It can always be argued if it was enough for a woman who probably smashed the heads of her parents. However, it was definitely enough for a woman who is acquitted.

It is a free society. We have a right to express our opinion and perception towards anything; even it it goes to an extreme, like the Lizzie Borden Chronicles have. However, as humans, we can at least show some respect for the living and the dead.

Media is a strong force. It can make facts appear fiction and vice-versa. We already have enough of story tellers who have distorted history, to a point that truth seekers, are trying to find a granule of sugar in the salt jar.

Any freedom, comes with complete responsibility. Freedom of speech, expression, and press should be used by showcasing responsibility towards the people involved(living or dead), the referred environment, and facts that make it so enchanting.

[twinsrwe]

Excellent post, Richard!

It is very unfortunate that The Lizzie Borden Chronicles are so far off track regarding the real Lizzie Borden's life after her acquittal, that I'm afraid new scholars to this case are going to be more 'sure than ever' that Lizzie really did kill Andrew and Abby, as well as anyone who got in her way. Dang, by the time this series ends, half the citizens of Fall River will have been murdered by the hand of Lizzie Borden! It's a shame, really.

[mbhenty]

Well, this should prove interesting.

I have not watched one episode of the Chronicles, but I will watch the next one.

While talking to a friend on the phone, she told me that in the next episode we find Emma in an insane asylum.

If true, to me it is more than interesting.

In fact or fiction there is only one place where it mentions Emma in an insane asylum. That was in the fictional account THE GIRL WITH THE PANSY PIN in chapter Eleven, Did the series steal the idea from the book? It is the only place where such an idea is mentioned, and the author of the PANSY PIN to commit Emma to the psychiatric hospital two almost 2 years ago when the book was issued.

Of course, The Girl with the Pansy Pin is fiction and Emma never spent any time in an asylum.

This will prove interesting to me if they did borrow from the book. I will closely study the dialogue and look out for other clues.

[twinsrwe]

Well, MB, your friend is correct. (Underlining is mine).

Episode 7

The Sister's Grimke
Original Airdate: May 17, 2015

Months after her showdown with Charles Siringo (Cole Hauser), Lizzie Borden (Christina Ricci) has remade herself as a school teacher with a new name in a little town far from Fall River. Seeking peace in anonymity, she's here to be near her sister, Emma (Clea DuVall), whose reaction to ghastly events of the past has put her in an asylum, under the care of an egotistical but renowned doctor. Lizzie's unaware that two famed gunslingers, Bat Masterson (Matthew Le Nevez) and Tom Horn (Chris Bauer), are hunting her, driven to learn the fate of their friend, Siringo. When Lizzie helps a victimized student get justice Lizzie-style, she jeopardizes her cover. Worse, Emma makes a startling choice that leaves Lizzie devastated.

http://tinyurl.com/qbnou6m

[Richard]

What I find interesting is that originally episode 6 was to be the last of the season. Perhaps Siringo's death had been a cliffhanger for season 2. But the network ordered the producers to make 2 extra episodes.

[Richard]

I finally ran out of fuel. I got halfway through the last episode and I just felt a profound loss of interest.

At this point it's just grind-house torture porn.

I'll read the Wikipedia summaries of the last two episodes to find out what happened, but I'm really not interested in any more violent sadism to mindless bad-ass music.

It could have been an interesting show if they didn't turn it into a Quentin Tarantino movie where everything (including the Holocaust and Slavery) is translated into some form of affected disturbed need to find sadism hilarious.

Nothing personal to those who like it, it's just not my genre.

[RichardX]

There wasn't much in Lizzie's life going on after the murders. A TV show has to be about more than Lizzie having tea or going shopping. I doubt Lizzie cares much about how she is portrayed. And even if she did she is remembered in history as an infamous double axe murderer. Not exactly a person whose reputation can be further damaged. The show is not meant to be taken seriously. Maybe a few younger folks will even become interested in the actual case based upon the show.

[snokkums]

I have to agree about the chronicles. I stopped watching it after a couple of episodes.\

[snokkums]

I have to agree about the chronicles. I stopped watching it after a couple of episodes.\

[Fargo]

I only got to watch the first one and even then not till after they were all played. We don't get the channel they were on so I want to get them all on Dvd and watch them all together in a Marathon

[twinsrwe]

Well, Fargo, IMO, you didn't miss much!

[Stefani]

I am alone. All alone. I liked the series.It was crazy and messy and fast and I never knew what to expect next. I especially liked this Emma. She was given some really good lines that made me laugh. In every episode there was something to like amid the foolishness. Yes, it was violent for violence sake. Yes, it was wildly fictionalized. Yes, it was loud and the music was anachronistic. Yes, the scripts were thin. But it is a genre of TV that is very popular these days (rooting for the bad guy) with quick edits and a fast-paced action.

For the first piece that was published in the Herald News asking me what I thought, I was given a set of questions beforehand to answer the next day in a telephone interview. It was like homework. I sat in Florida with Kat (who I was visiting) and watched.

I soon realized this show was not the Lizzie Borden I know, not the Fall River I live in, and not the historical story that I enjoy. So I set all of that aside and jumped into the deep end. I just let it happen and went along for the ride, not trying to wish it were something different. I let it do its thing and, in the process, a light was shown on a few things I never thought of before. So even in the midst of chaos, we can learn something.

My favorite Broadway musical is Sweeney Todd. That should tell you a lot about me. The Grand Guignol style of theatre that fascinates me. From Wikipedia: Le Théâtre du Grand-Guignol (French pronunciation: ​[ɡʁɑ̃ ɡiɲɔl]: "The Theatre of the Big Puppet") – known as the Grand Guignol – was a theatre in the Pigalle area of Paris (at 20 bis, rue Chaptal (fr)). From its opening in 1897 until its closing in 1962, it specialised in naturalistic horror shows. Its name is often used as a general term for graphic, amoral horror entertainment, a genre popular from Elizabethan and Jacobean theatre (for instance Shakespeare's Titus Andronicus, and Webster's The Duchess of Malfi and The White Devil), to today's splatter films.

I totally agree with Richard's observation that since the original series was to be 6 episodes that the last two were really meant to be for another time. The death of Charlie Siringo was a jolt and it felt like an ending to me. It would have been a BIG ending to the series! The last two episodes were not as satisfying and the development of the Boston family was practically nonexistent. Unfortunately. It would have been grand to have a few episodes with Lizzie meeting her match!

I had to turn off my historian's brain to watch this. That is for sure. But this series was not True Detective or HBO material. But for what it was it was a hoot. And brought a lot of people to the case.

Go ahead, let me have it.