Who was that man?

[Franz]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VL2tobl6SBw

In this video, at 3'44'', appears a drawing published in a newspaper (which one?), an illustration entitled "A CORNER IN THE COURT ROOM", that demonstrates a man who seems (to me) clearly an oriental. Was he Chinese? Was he Lizzie's former Chinese student in the Sunday School? His imagine being published in newspaper, was he interviewed by any journalist? Did he ever say something about his impression about Lizzie? I am curious to know all this!

(The newspaper in question was Providence Journal, if I understand well.)

[debbiediablo]

If this one, I'm unsure if he's Chinese or just looks somewhat Chinese.

[Curryong]

Very little is known about Lizzie's teaching in Sunday School, Franz. There were only about 20 people of Chinese ethnicity in the Third District (Fall River) at the time of the murders. The majority of these appear to have been associated with the laundry trade. (There was a Chinese laundry on Second St, reasonably close to the Borden house.)

In spite of Marianna Holmes's grand pronouncement about Lizzie teaching in the 'Chinese department' at her Church Sunday School it appears that she superintended Bible studies with one Chinese youth only, there. She was successful in that and the youth left Fall River. It could well have been he whom the illustrator captured, coming back to see how Miss Lizzie was faring in court. I think the Providence Journal was anti-Lizzie, at least during the court case. The man you speak of was never identified or interviewed.

Incidentally Franz, off-topic here, but did you know that during Australia's gold rush years (the 1850's-1860's) thousands of Chinese came to Australia to try their luck on the gold fields? They faced great prejudice from other miners and sometimes were attacked.

However, they persisted and many stayed on in Australia afterwards, forming their own communities. Unlike the US many of the Chinese who remained became associated with market gardening. They were a regular sight in country towns in Victoria (my state) selling fruit and vegetables from their horse-drawn carts. Nowadays, of course those Australians of Chinese ancestry are in all professions including medicine, and make up 4 percent of the Australian population.

The two big gold rush towns in Victoria are Ballarat and Bendigo. Every year Bendigo has an annual festival which has lasted for well over 150 years and a huge traditional Chinese dragon takes part in the annual parade. The original was sent for from China by the local Chinese community in the 1860's I believe, and it and several of its successors are in the Bendigo museum. I was at Bendigo last year at festival time and saw the dragon taking its usual prominent part in the parade, accompanied by drums!

[Franz]

If this one, I'm unsure if he's Chinese or just looks somewhat Chinese.

Yes Debbie, it's this drawing. Thank you for having posted it.

I am almost sure that he was Chinese, for the line of his face, his eyes (they are big for a Chinese, but some Chinese do have big eyes, too, ), and his hair, and his clothes! Everything makes me think he could be Chinese. Does any member know something about this guy?

[Franz]

Thank you Curryong, All you said is very interesting!

The man in the drawing looks young. He could have been, as you said, Lizzie's unique Chinese student, couldn't he? At least it was not impossible. If so, his coming back to assist to the trial could mean he cared about Lizzie's fate, couldn't it? Good boy! It would be marvelous to know his opinion about Lizzie in general and about the Borden case in particular.

[debbiediablo]

Franz, the guy looks a lot like you. Did you have an ancestor in MA at that time...

[debbiediablo]

This provides a little more info. This artist was William H. Loomis, and yes, the neckline of the man's clothing does look Chinese.

http://www.providencejournal.com/incomi ... -trial.ece

http://www.providencejournal.com/topics ... verage.ece

[Franz]

Thank you Debbie. The two links are both fascinating.

Beside his face, his cloth, his hairstyle too makes me think he could be very well Chinese. Please compare:

[Franz]

Franz, the guy looks a lot like you. Did you have an ancestor in MA at that time...

[irina]

Wow, Franz! That's a fantastic find and a good artist did that. I would say definitely the clothing is Chinese or Asian in general. The hair line looks like the picture you posted. This is something to look into for sure. I'm impressed!

Chinese in the western US worked the mines after others had gotten the easy wealth. Chinese worked very carefully and hard to extract what was left. Many had previously worked on the railroads and when the railroad crossed our country east to west, the Chinese labourers worked the mines. I am sorry to say they were not treated as good nor accepted as much as the Chinese in Australia that Curryong mentioned.

[Curryong]

Irina, in the Gold Rush days in Australia the Chinese miners weren't accepted at all. There was a terrible incident on the Lambing Flat goldfield in the State of New South Wales in the 1860's, where white miners revolted and attacked the Chinese, burning their tents and possessions and cutting off their pigtails (as seen in the photo.) A lone policeman posted on 'the diggings,' as goldfields were known in Australia, stood in front of the mob and ordered, begged, pleaded, beseeched them to disperse. He was pushed aside, but he later gave evidence against the ringleaders in court.

The first piece of law a federated Australian Parliament passed in 1901 was a White Australia law, specifically to keep out Asians and those of another colour. As you know, Australia is situated near to Asia and there was great horror of and fear about uncontrolled immigration. Although Chinese already here were allowed to stay, many were just tolerated. (A few individuals were popular in their local communities and married white women, and dragons did lend colour to parades in Bendigo, but prejudice was very slow to die.)

[irina]

Interesting, Curryong.

[Catbooks]

Thank you Debbie. The two links are both fascinating.

Beside his face, his cloth, his hairstyle too makes me think he could be very well Chinese. Please compare:

what a great find! very interesting thread, franz. i too think the man in the drawing looks chinese, and would love to know why he was there at the trial.

a question, if you know the answer. the man's hairline in the photo looks like it's been very neatly shaved back. was this a hairstyle commonly worn by chinese men in this period of time? it is the same hairline the man in the drawing has, but it's easier to see that it looks shaven in the photo.

[Franz]

Yes, Catbooks, it was exactly the hair style of a Chinese guy of that time.

[Catbooks]

thank you, franz! very interesting.

the man has to be chinese, between his features, the hairstyle, and the small mandarin collar on his jacket. i wonder who he was. i'd like to think he was lizzie's former pupil, but read he'd moved out of town. but who knows, maybe he came back that day to watch the trial of his former teacher :)

[Franz]

thank you, franz! very interesting.

the man has to be chinese, between his features, the hairstyle, and the small mandarin collar on his jacket. i wonder who he was. i'd like to think he was lizzie's former pupil, but read he'd moved out of town. but who knows, maybe he came back that day to watch the trial of his former teacher :)

You are welcome, Catbooks.

Yes, it's possible, even probable, that the young man was an (the?) ex student of Lizzie. This might be the subject of a fiction: Lizzie and her Chinese purpil Robert Wong ( ). What do you think about, Catbooks? And MB?

[Aamartin]

White Americans tend to think every Asian person comes from the same country and very Hispanic person is Mexican. Amazingly (to me) most of these people can tell right away where someone is from-- which I why I think Franz must be correct in that he is Chinese. Maybe is WAS you Franz in an earlier incarnation? :-)

[Franz]

White Americans tend to think every Asian person comes from the same country and very Hispanic person is Mexican. Amazingly (to me) most of these people can tell right away where someone is from-- which I why I think Franz must be correct in that he is Chinese. Maybe is WAS you Franz in an earlier incarnation? :-)

That this guy was a Chinese is just a judgement of my part. I certainly can be wrong. But his hairstyle, clothes and physic characters together are realy very convincing to me.