Hello Again!

[Maplecroft16]

Hello Again everyone.Its been a long time since I've posted (2004).
My name is Jeffery.
It's great to be back!

[twinsrwe]

Hi Jeffery, welcome back to the forum. I apologize to taking so long to respond to you; this is very rude of me. I’ve been searching through the forum to find some of the posts you submitted when you were here before. As I understand it you were a member of the old Arborwood forum when it was active. Is that correct? If I am not mistaken you have a theory regarding a conspiracy between John Morse, William Davis and George Howe.

Here are the links that I found, regarding what I think is your theory:

‘Jeffery's Theory’, May 29, 2004
http://tinyurl.com/nsd5e6g

‘William A. Davis’, November 9,, 2004
http://tinyurl.com/nzna7f9

"lizzie a. borden did not kill her father"!!!!!!!, November 14, 2004
http://tinyurl.com/q7lryl2

If you are the same Jeffery, then I found your theory intriguing, as well as somewhat probable. However, I find it hard to believe that there were four people involved with killing the Bordens, and not a one of them ever spoke about it. I also find it hard to believe that John Morse would seek the assistance to two other men in order to have Andrew killed.

What did John Morse gain for his part in this conspiracy?

What did William Davis gain from killing Andrew?

What did George Howe gain for participating in this conspiracy?

[Franz]

Welcome back Jeffery!

Thank you twinsrwe for your research of those links. If I recall well, Harry mentioned to me the theory of Jeffery.

[MysteryReader]

Hi Jeffery!

Good to have you back.

[mbhenty]

Yep a plot that runs right up your Alley, Franz....or should I say, il too vicolo!

[twinsrwe]

... Thank you twinsrwe for your research of those links. If I recall well, Harry mentioned to me the theory of Jeffery.

You're welcome, Franz. I thought of you when I was reading through those links.

[twinsrwe]

On page 2 the of thread titled, Andrew at the Side Door, Kat posted the following on May 22, 2008 (Highlighting and underlining are mine):

Fall River Globe, on Morse, as transcribed by Harry-

Monday, August 15, 1892, 1+


ECCENTRIC, BUT HONEST.

John V. Morse as Known By His
Far Western Neighbors.

HASTINGS, Ia., Aug 14 -- This place was for about 25 years, and in a sense is yet, the home of John V. Morse.
Miss Lizzie Borden has sent Detective Hanscom out here to investigate relative to Morse's past life.
Morse came here in 1869 from Illinois, where he had been a farmer with the exception of two or three years, during which, while a young man, he learned the butcher's trade. Morse has been a farmer ever since.
In Illinois he was a renter. During this period he saved up something less than $1000, and then came here and bought land; he owns two farms, 220 acres in all, as well improved as any farm in the county.
Morse has never married. He was always regarded by his neighbors as a very eccentric and peculiar man. He never, apparently, formed any close friendships, always maintaining a close reserve and in all his dealings was close almost to the point of penuriousness.
But he was always strictly honest.
The years he spent here were years of the strictest frugality, of self-denial that amounted almost to miserliness.
He would drive to town in an old rattle-trap lumber wagon using a pine board for a seat when he could have just as well afforded a buggy.
He would wear the same suit of clothes everywhere. It is pretty certain that the suit he is now wearing at Fall River is the same he wore when, he left here two years ago.
Only once during his long residence here did he show any inclination to take any comfort in life as he went along. One winter he electrified everybody who knew him by purchasing a nice, new buggy and a new suit of clothes. He suddenly showed a disposition to go into society and all that winter he attended parties and some other social gatherings as country life affords.
It was rumored that he was looking for a wife.
When the winter was over, he sold his buggy, laid aside his store clothes and was still a bachelor.
Those who know him best, however, agree that he was never anything more than eccentric. He was close, hardfisted, almost avaricious, but scrupulously honest. On one occasion in making a settlement with a brother of Hon. L. G. Gerung, who lives here, Morse recalled and paid for items and services which Gerung had entirely forgotten.
It is somewhat singular that in the discussion as to the possibility of Morse's connection with the Borden murder, Morse's brother-in-law, whose farm adjoins that of Morse, and who has known Morse since 1857, manifests almost no feeling. Some years ago Morse lived with the Davidsons, and the result of this was a coolness amounting almost to an estrangement which has continued up to the present.
Mrs. Davidson, who is Morse's half sister, seems to hold an opinion of Morse which is hardly as favorable as that of her husband. She says Morse was a man who when crossed would never forgive, and in fact, she describes this as a characteristic of the family and one in which she herself shares. In speaking of the arrest of Lizzie Borden she became very indignant and exclaimed that it is most preposterous to suppose that Lizzie could have murdered her parents.
Morse was never a horse trader, but he raised a good many horses on the farm, and when he had a surplus he sold them. Two years ago when he went East, he took with him a carload of horses. None of the animals were blooded, and there are people here who wondered at his taking so many ordinary stock.
But, however eccentric he may have been, he prospered and today he is considered quite well off for a farmer. Besides a farm he owns stock in the Botas Valley State Bank of Hastings. He has not been in need of money lately, for a short time ago he willingly gave one of his tenants who pays cash rent, an extension of time. And so, summing it all up, it appears that for about 25 years, John V. Morse has been a very hard working farmer. He has prospered and now seems to be taking things easy.
It is altogether likely that his moroseness, cynicism and other eccentricities were largely the result of his lonely condition in life.

http://tinyurl.com/o84gno6

I find it interesting that Mrs. Davidson (Arabell Frances Morse Davidson) claims it is a characteristic of the family to never forgive when crossed, and yet claims that it is preposterous to suppose that Lizzie could have murdered her parents. If never forgiving when crossed is a family characteristic, then Lizzie and Emma had the same characteristic passed down through their mother, Sarah Anthony Morse Borden. Arabell Davidson, John V. Morse and Abby Borden, all had the same father, who was Anthony Morse; Lizzie and Emma’s grandfather.

http://tinyurl.com/ojjvp3g

[twinsrwe]

On Feb 24, 2006, Allen posted, in the thread titled, Morse's history (Highlighting is mine):

Rebello:

page 70:

Profile: John Vinnicum Morse was born in Fall River, Massachusetts, on July 5, 1833. He was the son of Anthony and Rhody Morrison Morse. He was the brother of Lizzie Borden's mother Sarah Anthony Morse. Mr. Morse learned the butcher's trade. He was employed for two years by Charles and Isaac C. Davis who were in the meat business in South Dartmouth, Massachusetts. At the age of 22 Mr. Morse left Massachusetts, and moved to Excelsior, Minnesota, to reside with his brother William Bradford Morse. He resided there for one year and moved to Illinois where he was engaged in farming for fourteen years. In 1869, he went to Hastings, Iowa, to farm, raise horses and cattle. At this time, John Morse and his brother -in- law John Davidson were renting from Mr. Henry L. Lowry. A notice was given to Morse and Davidson to leave the premises by March 1, 1871. He purchased 40 acres of land in April of 1873 and another 40 acres in August 1873. In 1876, he purchased another 40 acres next to the land he purchased in 1873. His brother-in-law, John Davidson, and husband of Morse's half sister, Arabella (Ararabelle), owned a farm adjacent to Morse's farm.

While in Iowa, John Morse lived or boarded with various people and their families. IN 1870, he resided with the Davidson family. By 1880, the Davidson’s lived with John Morse. On Monday, May 10, 1886, John Morse, along "with Rappal" of Hastings, and John Gennung{Genung} of Hastings, registered at the Foster House, a local hotel in Hastings. "L.L. Rappal" Chicago, [Illinois]" was written under their names in the register. John Morse boarded with Mr. & Mrs. George C. Chapin and their three children in 1900. Mr. VanAusdale moved to Hastings in 1900.

Throughout his life, Morse traveled east during the summer and winter visiting Fall River; New Bedford; Warren, Rhode Island; and Boston. He maintained a small boat in New Bedford, and he visited friends and relatives. While in New Bedford, he would spend time at the marble shop of ex- Mayor Thomas Thompson discussing the existence of life after death. John Morse was fond of fishing and had an interest in having his fortune told. He oftentimes told the story of a gypsy in Hastings who refused to tell his fortune," You don't want it told." It was sometime after this, the Bordens were murdered.

Mr. Morse arrived at the Borden home on Wednesday, August 3, 1892. The next day, his brother-in-law and his wife were found murdered. It was early on in the investigation that John Morse became a suspect. He was able to account for his time the morning of the murders. His niece, Lizzie Borden, was charged with the murders and acquitted in 1893. John Morse testified at the inquest, preliminary hearing and trial of his niece. Ten days after the grand jury indicted Lizzie, John Morse left Fall River and arrived in Hastings on December 12, 1892. He returned to New Bedford to testify at Lizzie's trial. After the trial, he returned to Hastings, Iowa.

Mr. Morse died in Hastings, Iowa, on March, 1, 1912. At the time of his death, Mr. Morse resided with Mr. and Mrs. William Edwin VanAusdale in Hastings, Iowa. They were renting Mr. Morse's farm at the time of his death.

Funeral services were conducted from the Methodist church by Rev. M.A. Gable. Mr. John V. Morse was buried in Hastings Cemetery (Row 23). He was not married. He was survived by his brother, William Bradford Morse of Excelsior, Minnesota, and a half sister, Mrs. Arabella Davidson of Hastings, Iowa. Another sister, Mrs. Louisa A. Morse of Fall River, was deceased.

At the time of his death, John V. Morse's obituary described him as " a shrewd businessman, of even temperament, kindly disposition...his friends are numerous,...lived an honest, upright life...kind and considerate of the welfare of others, gave liberally to those in need...gave without ostentation and oftentimes in ways that the world knew not of."

A very different view of Mr. Morse was reported shortly after the Borden murders in 1892. A Boston Post reporter elicited the following statements from Mr. Morse's neighbors and those who knew him best. They described him as "frugal and self denying...eccentric, peculiar, never formed close relationships, and maintained and austere reserve. He was selfish, hard fisted in his business dealings, almost avaricious but scrupulously honest...” His half sister (Arabella) described Morse as " a man who when crossed, would never forgive, a trait she herself shared."


page 76:

“A horse attached to a buggy belonging to John Oliver, of New Bedford, broke from its owner, Monday [June 19, 1893], and dashed through Russell's Mills and Apponegansett. Several unsuccessful attempts were made to stop its career, but not until it reached the 'Head' did anyone succeed in catching it, which was done by no less a personage than the noted John Vinnicum Morse."
Fall River Weekly News, June 21, 1892:5.


page 77:

"John V. Morse and Amos R. Caswell, a resident of New Bedford, purchased a lot in Fairhaven, Massachusetts, from George H. Howland on October 24, 1906. ( Registry of Deeds, New Bedford, Massachusetts, Book 267 and page 267.)
-----------------------------

"Uncle John Morse continues very poorly at the home of W. E. VanAusdale, and on Friday night, Dr. Bridges, an Omaha specialist, came down town to examine him. Miss Anna Morse, a teacher in the Minneapolis schools, came in Friday to be with her uncle." Mills County Tribune, February, 26, 1912:1.

http://tinyurl.com/oc8m56s

[Franz]

Yep a plot that runs right up your Alley, Franz....or should I say, il too vicolo!

[Franz]

... Thank you twinsrwe for your research of those links. If I recall well, Harry mentioned to me the theory of Jeffery.

You're welcome, Franz. I thought of you when I was reading through those links.

Good girl!

[Franz]

ECCENTRIC, BUT HONEST.

Very good! Uncle John might have been very well an HONEST person.

But one can commit a murder for a very noble and moral motive.

[twinsrwe]

If John Morse was involved in a conspiracy to kill Andrew and Abby and he was as honest as his neighbors claimed, then he would not have sat back and allowed his sister's daughter to stand trial for something he was responsible for.

Franz, I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you. I do not believe there is such a thing as a very noble and moral motive for murdering two innocent people. Andrew owned the Swansea property, and he had every right to do with it as he saw fit. Even if Andrew actually did renege on his dealings with John Morse, he and his wife did not deserve to die.

[Aamartin]

The whole conspiracy thing just doesn't sit well with me... A secret of almost any kind, let alone that magnitude can only be kept if the other(s) are dead..... Someone would have slipped up...

Especially pertaining to JVM. He just returned (here) to Iowa and lived out his life with no apparent benefit from the murders? Heck, he even left Lizzie (I think it was) $100!

[twinsrwe]

I agree, Anthony. As far as I know, John Morse, William Davis and George Howe gained absolutely nothing from the murders of Andrew and Abby Borden.

Do you recall when Uncle John gave Lizzie a $100.00? This is a new one on me. ???

[Aamartin]

I now think I am mistaken... I thought he left her some money in his will but re-read the will and it appears I was wrong!

[Franz]

If John Morse was involved in a conspiracy to kill Andrew and Abby and he was as honest as his neighbors claimed, then he would not have sat back and allowed his sister's daughter to stand trial for something he was responsible for.

Franz, I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you. I do not believe there is such a thing as a very noble and moral motive for murdering two innocent people. Andrew owned the Swansea property, and he had every right to do with it as he saw fit. Even if Andrew actually did renege on his dealings with John Morse, he and his wife did not deserve to die.

1. Yes, I can agree with you for the first point, twinsrwe, it's a vaalid consideration. However, we should remember that Lizzie was acquitted. We don't know what uncle John would have done --- assuming that he was the real guilty --- in the case that Lizzie was found guilty.

2. Swansea property? Well, we don't know if the killer, whoever he (she) was, killed for money. This is just one conjecture among others.

3. Andrew and Abby were "two innocent people"? I am not so sure as you. They were brutally murdered, and for some reason!

[Franz]

The whole conspiracy thing just doesn't sit well with me... A secret of almost any kind, let alone that magnitude can only be kept if the other(s) are dead..... Someone would have slipped up...

Especially pertaining to JVM. He just returned (here) to Iowa and lived out his life with no apparent benefit from the murders? Heck, he even left Lizzie (I think it was) $100!

Anthony and twinsrwe, if a murder occured, why it's author must have acted to gain something only in pecuniary sense? I just can't understand this!

I think that if we really consider the case with an open mind, the "procedure" should be this one: IF --- I say IF --- uncle John were the guilty, he apparently didn't gain nothing of pecuniary with the murder, you see, he returned to Iowa and finished there his exsitence peacefully. So, we should looking for his motive in somewhere else. (Certainloy, this somewhere else is always a conjecure.)

[Aamartin]

I have considered this case with open, closed, partially open, wide open, partially closed and every mind in between-- and this theory still doesn't ring true to me personally-- that doesn't mean it isn't plausible.

[Franz]

I have considered this case with open, closed, partially open, wide open, partially closed and every mind in between-- and this theory still doesn't ring true to me personally-- that doesn't mean it isn't plausible.

I love you, my friend!

[Franz]

The whole conspiracy thing just doesn't sit well with me... A secret of almost any kind, let alone that magnitude can only be kept if the other(s) are dead..... Someone would have slipped up...

This is true, But I think it depends a lot on what kind of relationship you have with your accomplice(s).

[twinsrwe]

If John Morse was involved in a conspiracy to kill Andrew and Abby and he was as honest as his neighbors claimed, then he would not have sat back and allowed his sister's daughter to stand trial for something he was responsible for.

Franz, I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you. I do not believe there is such a thing as a very noble and moral motive for murdering two innocent people. Andrew owned the Swansea property, and he had every right to do with it as he saw fit. Even if Andrew actually did renege on his dealings with John Morse, he and his wife did not deserve to die.

1. Yes, I can agree with you for the first point, twinsrwe, it's a vaalid consideration. However, we should remember that Lizzie was acquitted. We don't know what uncle John would have done --- assuming that he was the real guilty --- in the case that Lizzie was found guilty.

2. Swansea property? Well, we don't know if the killer, whoever he (she) was, killed for money. This is just one conjecture among others.

3. Andrew and Abby were "two innocent people"? I am not so sure as you. They were brutally murdered, and for some reason!

Sorry, Franz, but I stand by what I stated.

[Aamartin]

The whole conspiracy thing just doesn't sit well with me... A secret of almost any kind, let alone that magnitude can only be kept if the other(s) are dead..... Someone would have slipped up...

This is true, But I think it depends a lot on what kind of relationship you have with your accomplice(s).

And from all reports JVM returned to Iowa and never visited the girls again!

[twinsrwe]

The whole conspiracy thing just doesn't sit well with me... A secret of almost any kind, let alone that magnitude can only be kept if the other(s) are dead..... Someone would have slipped up...

Especially pertaining to JVM. He just returned (here) to Iowa and lived out his life with no apparent benefit from the murders? Heck, he even left Lizzie (I think it was) $100!

Anthony and twinsrwe, if a murder occured, why it's author must have acted to gain something only in pecuniary sense? I just can't understand this!

I think that if we really consider the case with an open mind, the "procedure" should be this one: IF --- I say IF --- uncle John were the guilty, he apparently didn't gain nothing of pecuniary with the murder, you see, he returned to Iowa and finished there his exsitence peacefully. So, we should looking for his motive in somewhere else. (Certainloy, this somewhere else is always a conjecure.)

Franz, I did not state anything regarding someone gaining money. I simply asked: What did John Morse gain for his part in this conspiracy? (Did John Morse have Andrew killed for revenge, or so that he could live the rest of his life in peace, or did he kill Andrew just for the fun of it?)

I agreed with Anthony, because I believe a secret being kept among 4 people would be impossible; someone would slip up. As I previously stated: As far as I know, John Morse, William Davis and George Howe gained absolutely nothing from the murders of Andrew and Abby Borden. (Notice, I did not include Lizzie, because it is well known that her gain was ENORMOUS.)

If I remember correctly, you failed to state John Morse’s motive for killing the Bordens in your own theory.

Fact is: No matter what motive we come up with for the killer(s) of Andrew and Abby, it is going to be nothing but conjecture.

[Franz]

The whole conspiracy thing just doesn't sit well with me... A secret of almost any kind, let alone that magnitude can only be kept if the other(s) are dead..... Someone would have slipped up...

This is true, But I think it depends a lot on what kind of relationship you have with your accomplice(s).

And from all reports JVM returned to Iowa and never visited the girls again!

I don't understand well. I never conjectured that uncle John's accomplices were the Borden girls.

[Franz]

I am sorry, twinsrwe, I didn't interprete correctly your word "gain".

You said: "As far as I know, John Morse, William Davis and George Howe gained absolutely nothing from the murders of Andrew and Abby Borden." Well said: as far as we KNOW, John Morse gained nothing from the murders of Andrew and Abby. But he could have gained something unkonwn to us.

[twinsrwe]

I am sorry, twinsrwe, I didn't interprete correctly your word "gain". …

Apology accepted, Franz.

You said: "As far as I know, John Morse, William Davis and George Howe gained absolutely nothing from the murders of Andrew and Abby Borden." Well said: as far as we KNOW, John Morse gained nothing from the murders of Andrew and Abby. But he could have gained something unkonwn to us.

You’ve got it!!! Good job!

[Franz]

I am sorry, twinsrwe, I didn't interprete correctly your word "gain". …

Apology accepted, Franz.

You said: "As far as I know, John Morse, William Davis and George Howe gained absolutely nothing from the murders of Andrew and Abby Borden." Well said: as far as we KNOW, John Morse gained nothing from the murders of Andrew and Abby. But he could have gained something unkonwn to us.

You’ve got it!!! Good job!