Burn The House Down Over Us

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debbiediablo
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Burn The House Down Over Us

Post by debbiediablo »

I, too, am in agreement with much of Curryong's synopsis in another thread except the longer I study what we know as facts about that morning, the more convinced I become that Lizzie told us via Alice exactly how things were going to go down. This type of foreshadowing is landmark in a domestic homicide.

I have not considered Morse a viable suspect due to his alibis, but he does have the distinction of being the only other non-resident person known to be present in the home close to before and close to after the murders. Bowen is next in line.

I've always entertained the idea that Lizzie brought the killer into the house under cover of darkness after leaving Alice's the night before. The best place to hide in No. 92 without fear of being found by anyone would've been Emma's alcove. This entirely eliminates the issue of how the killer got into the house unseen on the morning of the murders and the issue of locked doors. Escape via the basement door with Lizzie relocking it, a dash across the backyard, a leap over the fence and he's long gone before Lizzie sounds the alarm.

I do think Lizzie killed Abby - the overkill fueled by rage is not something one would expect from a hired killer or even someone connected to the household who merely held a grudge. This was Abby, not Andrew; she was not the one who made enemies both personally and professionally...except for her step-daughters. Either Lizzie killed Abby, or Emma somehow did.

However, Lizzie tells us that her father will be killed by a man who holds a grudge against him. And that she fears the house will burn down around them.

Alice's testimony:
A. She said, "I feel as if I wanted to sleep with my eyes half open—with one eye open half the time—-for fear they will burn the house down over us."
Q. Is there anything else that occurs to you in the conversation? A. Oh, she said, "I am afraid somebody will do something; I don't know but what somebody will do something." I think that was the beginning.
Q. Please state that.
A. "I think sometimes—I am afraid sometimes that somebody will do something to him; he is so discourteous to people."

I like MB's theory that Lizzie was in the yard as seen by Lubinsky for the purpose of being seen while her father was being dispatched. She could kill Abby, but couldn't bear to present at the death of her father.

The reason I don't see Morse as the killer is he looks more like the spoiler. He arrived unexpectedly and was invited home for lunch. (I'm unsure when Lizzie learned this.) This forced Lizzie's hand and the hand of her father's murderer. They couldn't wait for Morse to arrive home, go up to his room and find Abby dead with Andrew still living. They couldn't get Bridget out of the house (someone reported she was the best dressed member of the household, so a fabric sale should've been adequate bait....)

As Curryong mentioned in the other thread, Lizzie made her first and only attempt at luring Bridget out of the house to a fabric sale mid-morning on the day of the murders. Lizzie intended to prevent anyone from searching for Abby by stating Abby had received a note to visit a sick friend. No one would find this unusual, especially if Abby's burned corpse sans the incinerated note was discovered once the house had burned down around her and Andrew's bodies. Write it off to Abby arriving home early and walking in on the murderer, fleeing upstairs and being cornered in the guest room. Arson has covered up plenty of murders or at least misdirected attention away from household members who were out shopping for fabric or fishing line. A misquided attempt to hide her body under the bed supports this theory.

Remember, Lizzie paid an unusual amount of attention to that kitchen stove on a hot day in August (yes, I know, not the hottest day but rather a Thursday - Bridget's afternoon off) for the simple purpose of ironing handkerchiefs. I'm more inclined to think Lizzie wanted the fire kept capable of being overfired and engulfing the kitchen followed by the house. This might be why she hid her dress next the stove...it was supposed to be among the first items to go up in smoke. (With apologies to Cheech and Chong.)

The hatchet came into the house with the murderer and left with the murderer. Maybe it went home, got cleaned and chopped kindling for many more years. Maybe it was tossed in the bay. I do not think it was tossed onto Crowe's roof. Once the killer made it over the fence with the murder weapon, disposal opportunities became far more global.... :smiliecolors:

Lizzie had plenty of time to kill Abby, clean up and write it off to a bloody slops pail in the basement. (I will always wonder if Lizzie said something to Abby like, "Those windows are positively filthy, aren't they Mrs. Borden," which got Bridget sent directly to wash them...exactly where Lizzie wanted her.)

We've discussed how a conspiracy could not have lasted until the death of those involved; someone, sometime, would've been in the throes of love, lust or liquor and spilled the beans. I do believe this is an element needing careful consideration, and that success would depend entirely on the characters of the two individuals. I'm more inclined to think this kind of loyalty cannot be bought but rather arises from love and deep friendship plus a common motive. Note that Lizzie does not say her father is in danger from someone he has cheated; instead she says he is in danger due to discourtesy! Given Lizzie's semantic issue with the definition of cordial, I'm inclined to think 'discourtesy' is exactly what she meant.

If each of them killed one person then each of them held the power of life imprisonment or death over the other. Even Lizzie's acquittal in the deaths of Abby and Andrew would not prevent her from being tried for conspiracy or obstruction of justice regarding her partner...perhaps not hanging offenses but life in prison is a far cry from life in Maplecroft. This makes me wonder whether Lizzie's version of David Anthony was somewhat true but totally self-serving.

I am convinced that Lizzie slipped the coat under Andrew's head as a means of undoing. His injuries indicate depersonalization so the killer was likely someone who had amicable dealings with him in the past and then became infuriated. The coat was not in the ideal place to disguise blood splatter...to do that it should've been directly under his head not several layers below. I also think Lizzie is telling the truth about making him comfortable, tending to his needs when he got home. She wanted their final interaction to be loving...before he was hacked to death.

Regardless of all else, I have come to believe that Lizzie was telling us her game plan which included burning down the house and all the evidence inside it.
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Re: Burn The House Down Over Us

Post by Curryong »

Who was this person, though, Debbie? With the exception of Dr Bowen, to whom Andrew was VERY discourteous, sending him off with a flea in his ear on the Wednesday morning, we have no evidence of Lizzie's attachment to a male (besides her father, of course.)

If she was a flirtatious sort of female who had had 'gentleman callers' when she was young, (even if only one or two) I could believe in a partnership of murder. However, as you know, Ruby Cameron turned out to be a complete fantasist which makes the David Anthony story appear a load of bull dust .

Lizzie seems to have been very reserved, even forbidding, around strangers, including men, and if anyone recollected her fluttering her eyelasshes at any man over a plate of ham sandwiches at a church supper it doesn't seem to have reached the ears of the police or become part of town gossip. Remember, when she even just sat with Dr Bowen in church on Sunday, the news whizzed around Abby's relatives like a speeding bullet.

The conversation Lizzie had with Alice that Wednesday evening was a very interesting one indeed. All sorts of forebodings expressed, about strangers and Andrew's abruptness and rudeness, but she is never specific, it ranges around shadowy strangers with whom Andrew may have had an argument over business. A person or persons so vengeful that they would be prepared to poison the family and burn the house down. Men or a man she herself has seen running around the house when she returns home in the darkness she tells Alice, heightening the atmosphere of paranoia.

We have to remember that Alice tries to reason and jolly her out of it, (and it's hard to imagine how, with the exception of the outside jug of milk, how anyone COULD poison the household.) And Emma was away so if Lizzie's intimations of strangers hating the Bordens so much they would be prepared to kill, one daughter would be escaping completely unscathed.

That Wednesday conversation has something of the qualities of a passage in Alice in Wonderland. Nothing in it makes sense, unless it is regarded as Lizzie, having heard what her father has imparted to Uncle John about the Swansea farm, has already formed in her mind what has to happen tomorrow and is laying the groundwork for it. Including perhaps, a bit of arson.

I think Miss Lizzie got up too late didn't she, to mention the windows to Abby? She wandered downstairs about an hour and a half after her parents and John had had their breakfast and sat at the kitchen table. Bridget went out to 'water' the pear trees and then came back to gather her washing equipment together for the windows. By that time Lizzie was nowhere to be seen and Abby was presumably upstairs in the guest room.
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Re: Burn The House Down Over Us

Post by debbiediablo »

:smiliecolors:

One of my all-time favorite quotes is Delmore Schwartz: "Even paranoids have enemies." This extrapolates to Ruby in that even fantasists tell the truth sometimes.

Although Ruby had the facts seriously muddled, I do wonder whether she fabricated every last bit of it to gain notoriety; whether she suffered from bouts of psychosis; whether she purposely embellished the details; or whether she confabulated - filled in where she either didn't know or failed to remember; or simply couldn't remember with exactitude at age 84 (six months before her death) something that took place over five decades earlier; or whether Lizzie rewrote her own history to make Andrew's death the result of an ill-fated love affair instead of conspiracy between a fornicating daughter and murdering lover. If there is any truth whatsoever in Ruby's version it starts with David Anthony committing or being an accomplice to the killings.

I'm not 100% stuck on David Anthony, but his being the killer makes about as much sense as a sheltered Lizzie Borden planning and executing the perfect crime that leaves behind no evidence, no weapon, no blood splatter, no way in or out other than through mostly locked doors, no witnesses of anyone hanging around other than Lizzie's words, no financial motive that couldn't have been accomplished with only Abby's death, no plausible explanation why she hatcheted the face of a father she truly loved...the man at whose feet she was buried.

As for the poisoning, I think there's some probability that Lizzie was trying to purchase poison, perhaps because Abby was already complaining about being poisoned. Now THAT would have been the perfect crime - prussic acid followed by a five alarm house fire.

On the other hand, prussic acid was used as an abortifacient.

No matter who retracted what, I also think there may be more than a grain of truth in the story that Lizzie was pregnant. Given Andrew's issues with control, his Quaker background and the Victorian era itself, the proscriptive atmosphere of that household, I can see where this would infuriate him - and perhaps his anger was blamed for a miscarriage. Or Dr. Bowen was a sideline abortionist. As I recall there's always been a little debate as to the timing of that slops pail in the basement.

My other list of co-conspirators includes Morse, Bowen, someone who suffered grievous personal harm due to Andrew's hard-nosed business tactics (but it's hard to believe Lizzie could've been drawn into that) followed by Emma and Bridget. Or a hired killer...but I really don't see Lizzie hiring a hitman. Or soliciting someone to do it for her...this is where someone-somewhere-sometime gets a little too disinhibited and spills their guts.
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Re: Burn The House Down Over Us

Post by irina »

The initial post here is half whited out but I'll make a couple observations.

In Lizzie's conversation to Alice she elaborates on her father's actions with people as a possible/probable source of violence that could be directed at or harm the whole family. Interestingly unless Alice mentally redacted it, Lizzie did not focus on Abby in the conversation. The next day however Abby bore the brunt of whoever's murderous rage. Did Lizzie also complain of Abby to Alice? If not, why not? Is Lizzie being honest in saying her father's manner could/would lead to violence? Had threats been made? If so, why didn't she tell this to the police after the murders? Was she protecting someone? Did she know only of the threats and not from where they came? If she is guilty as many believe, was Andrew the basis for murder though Abby got the worst of the violence?

I have always been VERY interested in Dr. Handy's activities on Second St. that morning. What was he even doing there in a neighborhood that was tenanted by doctors on every corner? He and his family were friends of Lizzie especially. Andrew at least in passing indicated Dr. Handy was in a habit of just stopping by.

I have read the rumor that Lizzie had gotten an abortion on her way back from Marion that week. This is just stuff off the internet and I cannot find anything reliable to back up the tale. I was under the impression from this report that she had spent a night that week in a hotel but all of you have pointed out she stayed with friends. If she had gotten an abortion and Abby figured it out and said the wrong thing or threatened to tell Andrew what she knew or thought, a lot of things would become a lot clearer.
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Re: Burn The House Down Over Us

Post by Curryong »

I found this very interesting early link to a thread here called Handy and Andy.
Dr Handy doesn't come up in Rebello or Parallel Lives much except re the Pallid faced man, holiday cottage lending and his daughter Louise being one of the party at Marion. But I did think this thread from 2003 was slightly more informative.

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Archive04 ... dyandy.htm
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Re: Burn The House Down Over Us

Post by irina »

Thanks, Curryong. I have read it before and took information from It for some other thread. Handy and Andy was where I got the list of women who were vacationing with Lizzie at Marion. Loads of school teachers.
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Re: Burn The House Down Over Us

Post by Curryong »

Curryong wrote:I found this very interesting early link to a thread here called Handy and Andy.
Dr Handy doesn't come up in Rebello or Parallel Lives much except re the Pallid faced man, holiday cottage lending and his daughter Louise being one of the party at Marion. But I did think this thread from 2003 was slightly more informative.

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Archive04 ... dyandy.htm
Later, did you note how Susan Handy, the doctor's wife, was a Holmes befor her marriage? What tangled relationships these old Fall River families have!
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Re: Burn The House Down Over Us

Post by irina »

Debbie, I remember well your idea Lizzie may have brought someone home with her the night before.

In the same line I have had a stray thought that is similar. What if a man was invited in to remonstrate with Andrew on some issue when he came home? What if Abby did get a note to get out of the house? Maybe she was going but wanted to take an extra pillow case into the guest room? What if, meantime Lizzie had let someone into the guest room? That room was the parlour for "the girls" to see their friends. What if Lizzie thought Abby was done cleaning the room and felt the coast was clear? What if Abby toddled in with the extra pillow case, found someone inappropriate and ordered (probably) him out? THAT could explain quite a bit.

Instead of letting someone in the night before I consider someone coming in that morning, cellar door or side door. Possibly someone went to the side door & was let in. Maybe Lizzie thought Abby had left when in actuality she was upstairs getting an extra pillow case or something.
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Re: Burn The House Down Over Us

Post by debbiediablo »

Yes, Irina. When I visualize this crime it involves Abby surprising Lizzie and someone else who doesn't belong in the house, a male who is forbidden to be there, and she threatens to tell Andrew...Lizzie or her guest responds by fetching a hatchet.
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Re: Burn The House Down Over Us

Post by irina »

With what Curryong dug out about hatchets & temperance, could we think about a hatchet left in the guest room/parlour from a previous temperance meeting? I have always thought that if Lizzie did it, the hatchet was close to hand. I DO NOT go for her packing it up in a pile of laundry or anything like that. Of course if an intruder did it he brought the hatchet with him more than likely. Maybe they had a golden hatchet ceremony or something for part of their temperance rituals. And it ended up on Crowe's barn.
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Re: Burn The House Down Over Us

Post by Curryong »

I've just had a vision of a couple of dozen youngish ladies standing with hatchets upraised in the room in the Andrew J Borden building as a new member gets presented with a hatchet of her very own! I do think those little pins were rather cute. I wonder whether converts were rather like Freemasons and their secret handshake, keeping a 'Carrie' pin under their lapel and only showing it to another member!
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Re: Burn The House Down Over Us

Post by debbiediablo »

OMG, Curryong. You've discovered the motive for the murders: Lizzie peeked through the keyhole and saw Andrew and Abby removing a 2 1/2 quart bottle filled with pears and vodka from the safe!

Aunt Abby's Pear and Rosemary Cocktail

Ingredients:
6 to 10 Seckel pears
4 cups (32 ounces) vodka
1 cup sugar
12 sprigs fresh rosemary plus more for garnish
1 1/2 cups (12 ounces) pear nectar
4 cups (32 ounces) sparkling water


Directions:
1. Put enough pears into a 48-ounce glass jar to fill. Add vodka. Seal jar, and let stand at room temperature 2 weeks (up to 2 months).

2. Heat sugar and 1 cup water in a medium saucepan over medium-high heat, stirring until sugar has dissolved. Add rosemary; remove from heat. Let stand 30 minutes. Discard rosemary. Let cool completely. Syrup can be refrigerated in an airtight container up to 1 month.

3. Fill 12-ounce glasses halfway with ice. Add 4 tablespoons vodka, 2 tablespoons syrup, and 3 tablespoons pear nectar to each. Top with 1/2 cup sparkling water. Serve garnished with rosemary sprigs.


courtesy of Martha Stewart.... :smiliecolors:
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Re: Burn The House Down Over Us

Post by Curryong »

It sounds absolutely delicious and Lizzie was probably dying of jealousy! Is this one of your favourites, debbie?
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Re: Burn The House Down Over Us

Post by debbiediablo »

I like pears in almost anything....gently picked from the tree when ripe and well washed!!!
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Re: Burn The House Down Over Us

Post by irina »

In a rather long article floating around on the internet that I think both Debbie and I have read, commented on Lizzie wearing her cheap pansy pin to court, but that this was soon replaced with a gold temperance pin with something about innocence inscribed on the other side. I didn't think much about it but then someone wrote a book called "The Girl With the Pansy Pin". I have seen a picture of Lizzie with this pin and would love to have an enamelware pin like that, so the comment about it being cheap or ugly falls flat with me.

Whatever happened in the guest room that day I think we can say that at that moment, the cordiality hit the fan. :bom:
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Re: Burn The House Down Over Us

Post by irina »

DANG! That last post of mine posted half whited out but corrected itself. Hope everything is OK.
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Re: Burn The House Down Over Us

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irina wrote:In a rather long article floating around on the internet that I think both Debbie and I have read, commented on Lizzie wearing her cheap pansy pin to court, but that this was soon replaced with a gold temperance pin with something about innocence inscribed on the other side. I didn't think much about it but then someone wrote a book called "The Girl With the Pansy Pin". I have seen a picture of Lizzie with this pin and would love to have an enamelware pin like that, so the comment about it being cheap or ugly falls flat with me. …
"The Girl With the Pansy Pin", was written by our mbhenty. :grin:
GWPPPaperbackCover1.jpg
The picture of Lizzie wearing the Pansy Pin is one of my favorite pictures of her.
copy-of-classiclizzie-mirror.jpg
It appears as though Emma also wore this pin, or had one like it.
e939ac1e4138b33fcf3d06b27ab0fdb6.jpg
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Re: Burn The House Down Over Us

Post by Curryong »

Maybe the sisters shared their jewellery to a certain extent?

Modest little flowers like pansies and violets were very popular in Victorian times, as distinct from showy flowers like luxurious orchids etc!
Pansies in the Language of Flowers meant 'You Occupy My Thoughts.' Violets evoked 'Modesty and affection'.
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Re: Burn The House Down Over Us

Post by MysteryReader »

I need to find a copy of the book- sounds really interesting!
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Re: Burn The House Down Over Us

Post by irina »

Fascinating! It doesn't look like Emma's pin is the same as Lizzie's. Interesting thought. Wonder if Lizzie got them in Europe or if someone gave each of them pins like that? I had no idea MB wrote the book!
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Re: Burn The House Down Over Us

Post by debbiediablo »

The book is on Kindle but there's no autographing a Kindle copy.... :smiliecolors:
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Re: Burn The House Down Over Us

Post by twinsrwe »

I think Emma and Lizzie had different pins; according to the photos, they do not appear to be the same pin.
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Re: Burn The House Down Over Us

Post by twinsrwe »

Curryong wrote:... Pansies in the Language of Flowers meant 'You Occupy My Thoughts.' ...
Curry, thank you for the meaning of Pansies in the Language of Flowers! Very cool. :grin:
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
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Re: Burn The House Down Over Us

Post by twinsrwe »

MysteryReader wrote:I need to find a copy of the book- sounds really interesting!
This book is a very interesting read.

You can get it through:

The Fall River Historical Society:
http://tinyurl.com/brt5jqs

Amazon:
http://tinyurl.com/q74dlgf

ebay:
http://tinyurl.com/q3f97wa
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
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Re: Burn The House Down Over Us

Post by twinsrwe »

irina wrote:... I had no idea MB wrote the book!
Here is Stefani's write-up on MondoLizzie, regarding MB's book:
http://tinyurl.com/q7w6xvx

Here is the article from The Herald News (Jul 27, 2013), which is enlarged so that you can read what it says:
http://tinyurl.com/kjmf3e9
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
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Re: Burn The House Down Over Us

Post by irina »

I need to contact FRHS one of these days and get as many books as I can from there as I suppose and hope they would get a little something from the sale.
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Re: Burn The House Down Over Us

Post by Curryong »

Good idea! Also, get Parallel Lives too, as well as Mb's book. I'm sure you'll enjoy it and find it useful.

So, twins, you now have the happily married pair together as your avators!
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Re: Burn The House Down Over Us

Post by Curryong »

Why didn't Lizzie and Emma try this?

http://flashbak.com/how-to-get-a-husban ... 880-29177/
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Re: Burn The House Down Over Us

Post by twinsrwe »

Irina, in addition to the books Curry listed, I recommend, Lizzie Borden: Past & Present ~ by Leonard Rebello, as well as Lizzie Borden: Resurrections: A history of the people surrounding the Borden case before, during, and after the trial ~ By Cherry Chapman.
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
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twinsrwe
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Re: Burn The House Down Over Us

Post by twinsrwe »

Curryong wrote:... So, twins, you now have the happily married pair together as your avators!
Yes, I'm playing around different pics to find an avatar I would like to display for awhile. :grin:
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
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Re: Burn The House Down Over Us

Post by twinsrwe »

Curryong wrote:Why didn't Lizzie and Emma try this?

http://flashbak.com/how-to-get-a-husban ... 880-29177/
This is a fun read, Curry; where in the world did you find it? Excellent!
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
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Re: Burn The House Down Over Us

Post by Curryong »

Funnily enough, on the Jack the Ripper Forum site. Glad you enjoyed it. It is amusing.
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Re: Burn The House Down Over Us

Post by debbiediablo »

Curryong wrote:Why didn't Lizzie and Emma try this?

http://flashbak.com/how-to-get-a-husban ... 880-29177/
"Have I taught myself self-control such that should adversity overtake me I can summon the strength and principle of character to not use a hatchet on the heads of those who tread upon my patience?"

I totally love old medical, self-help and cooking books...thank you Curryong!
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Re: Burn The House Down Over Us

Post by Curryong »

I'm afraid Lizzie didn't read that bit! Nor "Am I woman enough to be above petty jealousies and suspicion?"

Can you imagine all these anxious women, though. "In another year I shall be thirty. Where is that list? "

Or the reaction of the 'beautiful and very desirable and rich widower JH Acklen' on his Louisiana plantation when he starts receiving dozens of letters from anxious females. Not to mention that of Joseph Jorgensen MC, who is apparently grand, gloomy and peculiar!
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Re: Burn The House Down Over Us

Post by debbiediablo »

"Likes very young girls" is right up there with "gloomy and peculiar" for a 21st century red flag. This appears to be the precursor to internet dating sites.
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Re: Burn The House Down Over Us

Post by Curryong »

More like stalkers, harassing these wealthy eligible single men with unsolicited mail! And yes, grand and gloomy (what about?) and enjoying socialising with young girls in Louisiana would raise a few questions!
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Re: Burn The House Down Over Us

Post by violette »

What I don't get is why if Lizzie had someone kill Andrew, then why didn't she have this person kill both he and Abby. She could have went out to visit with a friend or have gone to the dress sale. It would have been a perfect alibi.
The only possible reason why that I could think of if that did occur was that Lizzie was a look-out for the murder of Andrew.
"Don't panic." - Douglas Adams 'The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy'
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