Did Lizzie herself ever deny trying to buy the Prussic acid?

[goddessoftheclassroom]

Does anyone know if Lizzie or her defense ever denied Bence's story about her trying to buy Prussic acid?

[kssunflower]

It's my understanding Lizzie denied even going to Smith's Drug Store on Aug 3rd during the inquest.

[goddessoftheclassroom]

Ok--what do y'all think: was it Lizzie, or was Bence mistaken? I never did like that he was taken to the Borden house, told to listen to her, and then agreed that the voice was the same!

[diana]

The following comes from Lizzie's inquest testimony:

"Q. Your attention has already been called to the circumstance of going into the drug store of Smith's, on the corner of Columbia and Main streets, by some officer, has it not, on the day before the tragedy?
A. I don't know whether some officer has asked me, somebody has spoke of it to me; I don't know who it was.
Q. Did that take place?
A. It did not.
Q. Do you know where the drug store is?
A. I don't.
Q. Did you go into any drug store and inquire for prussic acid?
A. I did not.
Q. Where were you on Wednesday morning that you remember?
A. At home.
Q. All the time?
A. All day, until Wednesday night."


As for Bence, Initially he tells police: “No, I do not know her, but think I would know her again, should I see her." So they take him up to the house that evening between 8 or 9 p.m. and he identifies her by sight and by the sound of her voice. (Witness statements)

Meterological data indicates the sun set in MA on August 4th 1892 at approximately 7:05 – 7:10 . So if Bence went to the house at 8 p.m., it would have been dark -- would illumination in the Borden kitchen be optimal for a positive identification?

At the inquest, his supporting witnesses in the drug store, Kilroy and Hart, give tentative responses. When Kilroy is asked if he is sure he knows who Lizzie is he answers: "Well, I think so" -- while Hart's answer to the same question is "I am, sir, just." which seems to indicate he is marginally sure at best.

Kilroy doesn’t help Bence’s case at the Preliminary Hearing either. Bence says he recognizes Lizzie at the house, not only by her appearance, but also because of her voice. He claims Lizzie spoke in a low tremulous voice when she asked for the prussic acid which aided him in his identification when he heard her speak later at the house. But Kilroy comes on the stand right after Bence and, in apparent contradiction, says Lizzie spoke in quite a loud tone with no noticeable tremor when she was in the shop. Who do we believe here?

Further, at the Preliminary Hearing, Adams's questions to Bence imply that the pharmacist told a neighbor on Whipple Street, a Mr. George Gray, that he (Bence) could not swear it was Miss Borden he saw in the shop. (Preliminary Hearing, 286)

Consequently, I am in the 'tending to dismiss Bence's testimony' camp. But I know others on the forum champion Bence -- so I'm sure you'll hear more on this.

[goddessoftheclassroom]

Diana, THANK YOU! This is exactly what I wanted to know.

[Harry]

Excellent post, Diana. Personally I'm inclined to believe Bence.

This is how the Fall River Globe of Aug. 6th reported Bence's visit to the house to identify Lizzie:

"... The policemen led him to the Borden house, and he was taken into the room where Miss Borden was seated. What transpired there is not known, beyond the fact, as stated, that Mr. Bence recognized Miss Borden as the lady who had called at the store mentioned and inquired for hydrocyanic acid. She stated that she wanted to use it on furs. No reputable druggist will sell that acid unless the order is accompanied by a druggist's prescription. Even then, questions would undoubtedly be asked, unless the person who asked to have the prescription filled, were known. Mr. Bence declines to state whether Miss Borden admitted that she asked for the poison or denied it, and the police who accompanied him are equally uncommunicative. As for Miss Borden herself, she is not aware that she has been interviewed on this subject by patrolmen or a druggist. The former were in citizen's dress when they called with Bence but Miss Borden has no recollection of their visit. She had been asked so many questions in the last 48 hours that this is not strange, perhaps, and perhaps it is. People who were with the young lady all day yesterday, are the authorities for the above statement. ..."

Later in the same article:

"... Undoubtedly the peculiar nature of the order enabled Mr. Bence to easily identify Miss Borden, especially, as but a short time had elapsed since her appearance in his store. As remarked above, it might not be an all singular that Miss Borden does not recall the visit of Mr. Bence and the officers. Very likely they asked Miss Borden no questions, and made no remarks in her presence. A glance was undoubtedly sufficient to satisfy Mr. Bence and, it is said that he and the officers remained in the house but a few seconds."

It should be noted that the F.R. Globe was no friend of Lizzie and there is more than a bit of speculation in the article.

[Shelley]

Mostly, in listening to crime witnesses, I am a champion of common sense and the average reaction of the average "guy". Say you are passing the time of day behind your counter, and in walks someone with a request for a deadly poison. She is not undistinctive-looking. She says she had gotten this poison there before. She seems ticked off she is not getting it- tremulous can also be a quality of frustration or anger-not fear or timidity. I mean, how many times in Bence's day did such a request come forth?Even the most casual and generally unobservant person would tend to recall something so out of the norm. Ask three different people the same question when each cannot hear the others' answers and you will get three similar, but different responses. Perception is highly individualized.

In studying the life of Bence, two things are abundantly clear about him as a person- hardworking and careful- both essential for a pharmacist anywhere.. I could go on and on about Bence post-Lizzie, his practice in New Bedford, his reputation on the Board of Massachusetts Pharmacists, etc. The guy was no head case with an ego who wanted 15 minutes of fame. He had been working to support his family since he was 15 and had been raised by exemplary parents with values anybody would admire.

I wonder if his half-brother, Peter Bence (who had himself been on the FR police force) urged Eli to come forward. Eli (himself only 27) had a young son and was living on Whipple Street with his first wife's family (Hayhursts) at this time, and had nothing to gain by sticking to his guns- in fact, he may have had something to lose. It takes guts to stick your neck out, unless you are sure of what you are saying is the truth- and you feel a sense of moral conviction to follow through. That his testimony was allowed in the lower court tells me he was a credible witness. And in the end, I believe the call was that the incident (if it had or had not happened)
was too far remote in time to be relevant! Not that Bence was too "shaky" and unreliable.

On another note, Lizzie's claim that she did not even know where the shop was seems a bit unbelievable as it is right on Main Street, only a block west and a block south of her home.

[Yooper]

I'm also inclined to believe Bence. Even if only the probability is considered, what are the odds of someone else requesting prussic acid on that specific day at a pharmacy only two blocks from the Borden residence?

[diana]

Thank you for the transcription of the Globe article, Harry -- it sounds from that as though Bence was actually in the kitchen with Lizzie. However, in his testimony at the Preliminary Hearing, he says only: "She was in the kitchen with Mr. Harrington, that was all; I stood in the doorway". (The doorway is further identified as the one leading from the back entry or back hall into the kitchen.) A small point, really -- as he does go on to say he "stood in view of her". (Prelim. 288+)

I wonder if she recognized him? Bence admits that he did not speak with her that evening and there is no indication that Harrington told Lizzie who Bence was. Because I don't necessarily believe Bence's testimony, I've always thought she may have just assumed he was another policeman accompanying Harrington.


Regarding whether it was unusual to get requests for banned substances -- the following police statement is a little cryptic, I grant you, but it almost sounds as though people were requesting poison left, right and center.

"Many sales had been made, and a number of persons refused. A description of those who were refused was obtained, but none resembled the person who-called on Bence."
(Witness Statements. 9)

[goddessoftheclassroom]

Drugs & poisons could be bought from pharmacists fairly easily--it was up to the pharmacist. Morphine was available OTC. Long ago I read that in 1900 25% of Americans were addicted to opiates, largely because of laudanum.

In England, people had to sign a poison register when they purchased arsenic, etc.

I don't think Bence was being intentionally dishonest, but I think he was mistaken. If Lizzie HAD attempted to buy the poison, she would have appeared far less suspicious if she admitted that than lying about it.

[Shelley]

Lizzie could not have admitted to being OUT of the house-that's the point. She told everyone she was ill, but did not let Bowen have a look at her. She went up the front steps when he came to see Abby and Andrew later that Wed. morning. She had to be ill in her room because she told Alice that exciting tale later in the evening about how they were all sick, the milk was being tampered with, etc. If she was so ill, then she could hardly have admitted to being on Main Street, and she certainly could never reveal she had asked for a deadly poison. Frankly I don't believe that Lizzie thought it would be difficult to obtain-she had not counted on that. And I don't think she much liked not getting what she wanted.

Quite true some customers had to be refused daily at a pharmacy-and not just for poisons. Drunks would try to obtain medicines high in alcohol content, and morphine, laudanum and other opiates could be easily abused by addicts. Women with unwanted pregnancies tried to get quinine and other abortants. Any reputable druggist would exercise caution in dispensing to known abusers.

As for Bence, were I in his shoes I don't know that I would have stuck to my guns so tenaciously. If there were the slightest doubt about it, who in their right mind would want the responsibility of being wrong and sending someone who could be innocent to the gallows? That, and what is known of his character persuades me to believe Bence entirely. I also believe Alice Russell could have said much more on her observations of that household in the days she spent there.

[xyjw]

I have always wondered what was typically used to clean furs in the 1890's. Was Prussic Acid an unusual choice? So many people wore fur and they must have had something to clean it with at home.

[Yooper]

What was Bence's motivation in supplying the information? What did he have to gain or lose by doing so? What are the possible outcomes for a true and for a false statement made by Bence?

[Shelley]

When she refers to cleaning furs- it is not cleaning in the sense of removing a stain- it was removing insect infestation. Furs were, for a long time, put in cold storage-even in the 1970's- it was done in the Spring. (I used to sell furs back in 1968). I always thought it odd that suddenly in August somebody would open up the linen storage bags to look at a fur coat (probably stored in an attic).
I have found uses for it in the mining industry, engraving,printing, fabric dyeing and as a chemical warfare agent. Under the name prussic acid, HCN has been used as a killing agent in whaling harpoons.

Historically, it has also been used in vermin or insect poisons, but has recently been replaced with materials less toxic to humans. The United States is one of the leading producers of prussic acid for industrial purposes, but it is also used in carrying out capital punishment by injection in America which I was surprised to learn. So, it is highly plausible that "the woman" who presented herself to Bence did not count on any opposition in obtaining the stuff as offering the reason for the need being removal of moths from a fur coat. It was, a legitimate, albeit not common, insecticide component.

Say, if a person had read this in a general household compendium on poisons and their antidotes- that person might assume that it might be easily obtained as a household agent for insect control. A careful and informed druggist might also easily see the potential for harm in such a request and demand a doctor's prescription. Bence was such a person.

[DJ]

I concur with Shelley-- no doubt there were unscrupulous pharmacists and merchants in the day-- as there are now-- but Bence's testimony has struck me as conscientious, that he went over to the Borden house to assure himself that he wasn't pointing the finger at the wrong person. He wanted to be doubly sure of himself.
Also, the man didn't dream that he refused to sell prussic acid to a potential patron the day before.
That closeness in proximity to the time of the murders is also crucial. Now, if he were testifying to something that had happened six months before, there would have been some window of doubt, and the dismissal of his testimony at trial would have been understandable as "remote."
Furthermore, Lizzie wasn't an ordinary looking person, and her voice was apparently distinctive.
Lizzie's big mistake in her inquest testimony, regarding the Bence affair, was denying knowledge of the existence of the drug store. It reeks of mendacity.

[diana]

Bence, himself, said that to his knowledge Lizzie had never been in the store before. (Bence: Prelim)

Apparently it was Dr. Dutra who suggested Bence tell the police. He probably would have gone to the authorities with his story but they came to him first, if you remember. (Bence: Prelim)

As far as Lizzie not being able to admit she was out of the house we would have to disbelieve both John Morse and Mrs. Bowen because to quote her defense: ". . . . . . by a special providence, which seems to have watched over us in parts of this case, her words are corroborated by the dead woman who told John Morse that Lizzie had been sick in her room all day and had not left the house, and later, when Mrs. Bowen comes to the house and asks for Lizzie, Mr. Borden says: she was in the house all day and only went out at night, when she called on Miss Russell. (Jennings closing arguments, Preliminary Hearing)



At the Hearing, Bence is asked a number of times if he can describe what Lizzie wore on Wednesday morning. He is unable to say whether or not she wore gloves, carried a wrap, anything about what she wore on her head etc. but he is willing to swear her dress was not blue. This part of the defense questioning has always intrigued me because they seem to be setting up a bit of a legal trap here:

“I know it was not blue; I am positive of that.”

. . . “I would swear her dress was dark.”

“Q: You are sure it was not a blue gown?
A: I am sure it was not blue, yes sir.”

“ . . . or a dress of a blue shade, either.”

Q: If I understand you, I want to get it right, you are positively sure this was not a blue dress?
A: I said it was not a blue dress.
Q: You are sure of that?”
A: I am sure. (Bence: Preliminary Hearing 279+)

Perhaps they were covering a base then with this question for Bridget:

Q. Do you remember anything about Wednesday, what dress she had on?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was it?
A. It was a light blue.) . . . Wednesday morning she had a blue wrapper on her; skirt and basque. (Bridget: Trial)

[Shelley]

Yes, Bowen had the same usual man appreciation for what women's clothes looked like. "Drab" was his unhelpful answer. I have a colorblind spouse who can't tell green from gray from brown. Red and green are often issues for colorblind people, which I understand is primarily a male condition. If they wanted to know something about clothing and fashion and accessories- they should have asked a woman. Too bad none were on the spot at the time.
Then too, I expect if someone had just cooly asked me for essentially what was cyanide, I probably would not have taken in her outfit and purse!

As for Lizzie being in or out of the house- it is a simple matter to walk down the stairs from Lizzie's room and go out the front door and not be seen by people in the kitchen or other parts of the house. Given the climate of that house, I feel certain Mr. Borden and Abby were not running upstairs to check on Lizzie's activities or to see if she were there. Nothing easier than to say "I'm feeling ill and will be lying down this morning". or something like that. Nobody would have bothered her and Bridget did not frequent the second floor.
I sometimes get a little surprise at the house when guests go out and come back and go upstairs and I don't know they have returned. I have taken to keeping the front door locked all the time and just leaving the side door open during the day and evening when I am alone there.

I believe it was necessary to promote the idea that she was sick on Wednesday, and was harmlessly prone on her sick bed not involved in anything she should not be- did not go out, did not go to the druggist, did not meet anybody outside the house, etc. And how interesting that when the Prussic acid was unattainable, a few hours later we have Lizzie suddenly much improved, dressed and going down to Alice's for a good long chitchat filled with doom and foreboding of awful things to come and poisoned milk.

[Kat]

Essentially there was no reason given by the judge as to why Bence's testimony was not admitted at the trial. It was excluded and that was about it. (I don't think it met the court's standards.)

Also, the lady in the store did not say she wanted the prussic acid to remove "moths from a fur coat" (quoting Shelley).

Bence said:
"Q. Did she say what she wanted it for?
A. I understood her to say she wanted it to put on the edge of a seal skin cape, if I remember rightly. (Inq. 160)

As to whether Bence discussed this with his 1/2 brother, as Shelley surmises, he says he didn't - though I admit it would be human nature to talk it over with family. But if we believe this response- that he did not -then either he did not, or he was being selective in his answer and that then opens the door for us to believe him or not on other fine points as well.

Inquest
Bence
163
Q. Have you had any talk with anybodyelse about the matter, except Mr. Hilliard and his officers, and the doctor?
A. Only the doctor, that is all. Lots and lots of people have spoken to me about it. I have always referred them to Mr. Hilliard. Of course when it came out in the paper, everybody was inquiring of me if I had done this or done that.

[Yooper]

The admission of Bence's testimony was at the court's discretion. If true, it would have indicated a predisposition to kill because there was no other logical application for prussic acid in a household, and it occurred a very short time before the murders. I'm not sure what you mean by "the court's standards", Kat, could you elaborate?

[Kat]

By that I mean the court is deciding if the testimony meets what both sides have agreed upon earlier. Certain rules and standards can be laid out ahead of time, right, and if these are not met, within the scope the court gives the questions, then the ruling is to exclude it.

[Yooper]

Is that necessarily something both sides have agreed upon? It almost sounds as though they're making up the law on the fly. If Lizzie had tried to purchase a hatchet the day before the murders there would be little doubt as to the admissibility of the evidence. If she had tried to purchase a firearm or poison, since the Bordens were neither poisoned nor shot to death, the court reasoned the evidence did not apply, and the ruling was entirely discretionary. The fact that it supposedly happened only about 24 hours before the murders apparently wasn't considered. I'm not sure if the term "standards" applies because that tends to imply the general sense of all courts in all cases rather than this specific court in this specific case. That may have been your intention, I just wasn't clear on it.

[stillnotalice]

A note about Eli's half-brother Peter Gaskell Bence:

At the time of the murders, Peter was married to his second wife, Emma Rowena Macomber. Emma's mother's maiden name was Rowena Borden Grinnell. Her grandmother's maiden name was Amy Borden. Peter's wife was, in fact, Lizzie's 2nd cousin.

I often wonder what their dinner-table conversations were like at the time of the trial.

Peter and Emma married in 1892 and my grandfather was born the same year. By the 1900 census they were separated with Emma living back with her parents. Emma is buried at Oak Grove Cemetery in Fall River with her parents and siblings. My grandfather and father are in the same plot. Their graves are a short walking distance from the Borden grave site.

Peter Bence, however, is buried elsewhere.

-CLBence (Peter & Emma are my great-grandparents)

[Albanyguy]

"At the Hearing, Bence is asked a number of times if he can describe what Lizzie wore on Wednesday morning. He is unable to say whether or not she wore gloves, carried a wrap, anything about what she wore on her head etc. but he is willing to swear her dress was not blue"

And this is one of the reasons I believe him. His testimony is unadorned and he is not willing to be pressured into saying something he doesn't feel is accurate. If he was making all this up (either because of police coercion or simply to get his fifteen minutes of fame), then why wouldn't he go along and tell the authorities exactly what they wanted to hear? He could easily have come up with a detailed description of Lizzie in blue dress once he figured out that this was what they wanted.

[twinsrwe]

Welcome to the forum, stillnotalice! So, you are a distance relative to Lizzie. How exciting! I look forward to any tidbit of information you may have hear from your family regarding the Borden murders.

[twinsrwe]

Welcome back, Albanyguy! I'm glad to see you posting again. I'm also inclined to believe Eli Bence was telling the truth. It is unfortunate that his testimony was not admitted at the trial.

[Curryong]

Yes, AlbanyGuy. Eli Bence was probably like the majority of men in that he was oblivious to what this strange woman was wearing! It's odd too, that Lizzie denied any knowledge of this particular pharmacy, in spite of the fact that the drug store was only a few blocks from her home.

[phineas]

I often wonder what their dinner-table conversations were like at the time of the trial.

Did any lore about the trial or Eli's story get handed down in the family stillnotalice? How fascinating to be related to some of our key players. Welcome to the forum.

[Albanyguy]

"It's odd too, that Lizzie denied any knowledge of this particular pharmacy, in spite of the fact that the drug store was only a few blocks from her home"

That's another good point. As it happens, there's a store a block away from my house that I've never had any reason to enter, but I've gone past it every day for ten years and I certainly couldn't deny that I know where it is. If Lizzie was truly innocent, she would have said something like "Well, of course, I know where that drugstore is, everybody in our neighborhood knows, but I've never shopped there". Claiming that she didn't know the drugstore existed sounds like the panicked, deceitful response of a woman with a lot to hide.

"Welcome back, Albanyguy! I'm glad to see you posting again." Aww, thanks, Twinsrwe!

[twinsrwe]

You're welcome, Albanyguy! You have a good point there. It's the little things that Lizzie says and does, that make her appear not so innocent.

[pld0128]

Yes, that seems like more of Lizzie's "haughty" attitude. BTW, my husband wouldn't remember what I wore yesterday, even if we spent the whole day together. So I could understand that the pharmacist wouldn't remember what Lizzie wore but would more likely remember her face and voice. And I love reading all of everyone's posts even though Ive hardly posted, myself. But I've been following all of you for a while. I'm going to make an effort to be more involved as I've read a lot and researched a lot of the case. Have also visited the houses in FR and have the Rebello book.

[pld0128]

Just ordered "Parallel Lives" and per-ordered "Lizzie Borden On Trial". Yay!

[twinsrwe]

I'm glad to see you posting, pld0128. I would love to hear your thoughts and ideas on the Borden case, since you have been to Fall River, visited both houses, and you have Len Rebello's book.

[twinsrwe]

Just ordered "Parallel Lives" and per-ordered "Lizzie Borden On Trial". Yay!

Alright, good for you!

[pld0128]

I think Lizzie was quite "peculiar" and that may very well have been a familial trait. I grew up in large house in NJ that was built in the early 1880's. But I think if a heavy woman was assaulted with a hatchet-like weapon many times and had fallen to the ground, even in my house, it could be heard in other rooms. The Borden's house is not that big by today's standards and those rooms are so interconnected. I don't see how any of them had much privacy. If it was Lizzie, she would have to do some (at least ) minimal personal clean up somehow. How convenient to have the bloody pail of water in the basement! I have also read all the posts on how people react differently to emotional traumas but I'm an R.N. and I find it so odd that Lizzie's reactions to the murders were so subdued. It's VERY hard for me to fathom that upon finding her father with a butchered hack-up head, that her natural reaction involved no screaming out, no crying, and no hysterics. That would be such an unspeakable horror to most people. Even if she was "peculiar", it seems to me her demeanor was very abnormal. As for the murder weapon, I'd love to see the house laser-searched. I'm not completely convinced about the "roof hatchet". If it's not in the house, I believe an accomplice (if only an accomplice post-murder) removed it from the house. I'll stop for now. Lol. Thanks to all for reading my post.

[Curryong]

Hello pld0128! Glad to see you posting. Visiting the Borden house must have been a very interesting experience. One day I will get there! Didn't Shelley used to act as a guide in the house? I'm sure I read somewhere that experiments have been made to see whether a large object hitting the floor would be heard in other rooms.

Of course we can't forget that at some stage Miss Lizzie was sewing right next door in her room, in this very small home. I don't think it was any accident that in her testimony she tried her hardest to infer that she was never upstairs after she got up that morning, but of course, unfortunately for her, Bridget caught her sniggering as she (Bridget) struggled with the door at around 10:40am.

[pld0128]

Thanks Curryong. I think not only of the sound of Abby falling down, but also of the murderer hacking away at her with some force, over and over. I can't imagine that can be done in silence. And yes, we come back to "someone" then waiting the hour and a half or so for Andrew to come home. It just seems so improbable that anyone other than a family member would be hanging out in the house during that time. I try to keep my mind open and when visiting the house I tried hard to visualize e all the events, It really was a moving experience being in that house and then visiting the cemetery. I plan to go back again in the Spring. I really want to stay overnight so I can have full access for an extended period of time but my husband won't sleep there!! LOL

[Kevin Luna]

I have little doubt that Bence is being forthright and that Lizzie really did try to buy Prussic acid from that shop. Bence said in his witness statement to police that the woman said she had a "seal skin coat" (close enough). If he is lying, how does he know that Lizzie owns a seal skin cape? And what are the odds that the woman in the shop was some other woman with a seal skin cape?

What I'd really like to know is what would have happened if Lizzie had successfully obtained the poison. Wouldn't she have been easily caught and convicted?