Random Questions

[camgarsky4]

Hi.....

Below are some relatively random questions that I haven't been able to answer via my reading.....any and all insights welcome!

1) What was the specific reason for Uncle John's visit? Odd that the prosecution didn't ask this basic question.
2) Based on Google Maps, travel time South Dartmouth to River Falls is 5 hrs. walking time and 1 hour bike ride. Did the train go to South Dartmouth back in the 1890's? If so, any idea how long the commute would have been? Travelling this close a distance makes no luggage not seem odd to me.
3) Is Swansea area still relatively rural or has it been overtaken completely by urban sprawl? Was surprised it was so close to River Fall.
4) Lizzie mentions taking hat off after returning from barn, but the witness who saw a woman walking back from barn specifically mentioned she didn't have a hat on. Not sure what that would indicate....but interesting if you choose to believe one or both of these stories.
5) We all find Uncle John's decision to go eat a pear behind the house before entering. But why would be invent a story that made him appear to behave oddly? Isn't he the only source of that information?
6) Assuming Lizzie did the murders: If John and Lizzie didn't see or speak to each other August 3rd & 4th (pre murders) and John was only invited back to dinner the morning of August 4th by Andrew before Lizzie came downstairs, that would mean that Lizzie woke up August 4th not knowing if Uncle John was going to make a total mess of her plans by hanging around the house all day. That little fact bothers me a bit

[twinsrwe]

…
1) What was the specific reason for Uncle John's visit? Odd that the prosecution didn't ask this basic question. …

John Morse was a friend and confident to Andrew, and he was in Fall River on August the 3rd at Andrews request. The last question in the following partial testimony clarifies the planned and/or unplanned visit. Many people believe the visit from John Morse had to do with Andrew planning his will, but according to the following testimony, that is not so.

Inquest Testimony of John V. Morse, being questioned by Mr. Knowlton, starting on page 98 (5):

Q. You do not think you had written announcing your visit at this time?
A. I don’t think I did. Let me see, let me tell it as I can think of it. Mr. Borden, when I was over here sometime in July, that I speak of, wanted to know if I knew of a man he could get on his farm, to take charge of it, I told him I did not know, I would see. When I got back I wrote him I knew of a man I thought would suit him, I would send him over. He wrote back to me he had rather I would wait until I saw him. I have his letter in my pocket, if you want to see it.

Q. What was the date of that letter? You may refresh your memory. If you have no objections, I will see it. (Witness produces the letter dated July 25, 1892.)
Q. Have you any objection to me keeping this?
A. No Sir, I would not like it lost, because it was the last one I ever had from him.

Q. That, then, was the last correspondence before you came over?
A. That is the last.

Q. You did not write him you were coming?
A. No Sir.

Q. You came partially in pursuance of that request.
A. Yes Sir.

Q. Was that about ten days before you came?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. So they were not expecting you that particular day, but were looking for you at any time?
A. Yes Sir.

Source: https://tinyurl.com/y69wr8zc

[camgarsky4]

Thank you.
Nothing scientific, but John's answer feels sincere and would indicate a warmth between these two. Also it appears Andrew trusted his judgment, another sign of a warm relationship
Q. Have you any objection to me keeping this?
A. No Sir, I would not like it lost, because it was the last one I ever had from him.

I'm trying to get my head around whether John was or wasn't involved. Assuming he wasn't due to his apparent warm and trusting relationship with Andrew, I'm a bit surprised the unannounced visit it didn't influence Lizzie to delay her plans until the following week. I'm presuming Thursday was the selected day of week due to Bridget being off the afternoon. It seems like not knowing John's itinerary might throw off Lizzie's plans.

If I had been in her shoes, I would have come down for breakfast early enough to catch John before he left and get an idea what he was up to that day.

Does the house have the floor vents that many turn of century homes have that allows warm air to rise? If also allows for easy eavesdropping.

[twinsrwe]

You're welcome.

I do want to say that mostly likely the farm on Pearce Road, was the farm Andrew needed a man to take care of. The farm house on Gardner’s Neck Road was used as a summer vacation home for the Bordens. The farm on Pearce Road, near Maple and Old Warren Road, was an operating farm, with cattle, chickens, pigs and so on.

Personally, I don't believe for a second that John Morse was involved in the murders. What would have been his motive if he was involved? He gained nothing from the deaths of Andrew and Abby. Furthermore, he had an air tight alibi.

We don't know what the conversation was between John and Andrew on the evening of the 3rd, but Abby did. These two men may very well have been talking about a will naming Abby as primary beneficiary, a transfer of land in Abby’s name, or something on that order. We don't know how much of Andrew and John's conversation was overheard by Lizzie, who would have been able to clearly hear their conversation from the upstairs front hall landing, without being noticed. As far as I know, the timeline for the evening of the 3rd is approximately: 8:45 pm Morse returns from Swansea, talks in sitting room with Andrew and Abby. 9:00 pm Lizzie returns from Alice Russell’s house, enters and locks the front door and goes immediately up to her room without speaking to her father or uncle. 9:15 pm Abby Borden retires to bed. 10:00 pm Andrew and Morse retire to bed. If this time line is somewhat correct, then Lizzie could have eavesdropped in on approximately an hour of the conversation between John and Andrew.

I have never been to the house, so I don't know if there were floor vents or not. However, I think you will find the following information very interesting as far as Lizzie and eavesdropping goes.

In the thread titled, what would have make a person get this violent?, Shelley Dziedzic, who, according to her profile, was an innkeeper at 92 Second Street for 10 years, had an interesting post about eavesdropping.

On Wed Oct 31, 2007, Shelley posted:

If all the window are open, you cannot hear a conversation in the sitting room from Lizzie's room unless the speakers stand right in the sitting room window and speak loudly. You have to go out on the front hall upstairs landing to hear a conversation in the sitting room- of course that would also have been very easy for Lizzie to have done Wednesday night when she came home from Alice's.

What I have found more interesting is the fact that Lizzie moved her headboard right into that corner by the door between her room and Abby's room. Her pillow lines up exactly with the KEYHOLE into the older Borden's bedroom and yes, every single word anyone says in that room can be heard clear as a bell. Andy's safe was also right in that room behind Lizzie pillow. I never thought it was a coincidence she moved that bed as soon as she got back from Europe and crammed it right in that corner. Sure, it kept Abby or anyone else from ever being able to come through that door, but it also gave her the best spot in the house to eavesdrop.

Source: http://tinyurl.com/ne4z7z5

I think the all mighty dollar was the primary motive, but I also strongly feel that it was NOT the ONLY motive. I am a 'Lizzie did it' believer, I have always felt that there was something that took place between Abby and Lizzie on the morning of the 4th, which enraged Lizzie and she snapped!

[camgarsky4]

That is incredibly insightful info from Shelley....thanks for providing!

I'm pretty sure we are on the same page on what happened.

Do you think Lizzie planned for the murder day or it was an emotional "snap" as you note? Do you believe she tried poisoning first and graduated to violence with the failure at the pharmacy? Or said another way, if John hadn't visited (and no conversation was overheard) and Abby hadn't done something to spark things that morning, would the murders have happened?

[mbhenty]

Just a note about floor vents.

Before Andrew Borden purchased 92 second Street in 1872 it was known as 66 Second Street, later changed to 92 in 1875.

When Borden purchased the place it was heated by fireplaces. There would be no vents in the floors since it was two separate apartments. One on the first floor and another, twin, on the second.

Borden turned it into a one family house some time shortly after he purchased it and renovated the entire building—somewhat. When he did he had central heating installed, steam radiators installed throughout the house. Thus there was never a need for and there are no vents.

[mbhenty]

Oh Yes, one more thing.

I sail my boat out of the Swansea Marina and have done so for almost 30 years.

Swansea is a good size town by today's standards. Ninety nine percent of homes are one family. I consider it a small town.

In the 1890s Swansea was a farming community with fifteen hundred people. Today it has ten times that. (est. 15,000) That's a large town when you consider that three quarters of incorporated towns and cities in the US have less than six thousand people. But then again it sits between Fall river, with a population of 88,000 and Providence, R.I., with 170,000, which makes Swansea a small town by my standards.

[camgarsky4]

thanks MB! Jealous of the sailing....always thought that would be a glorious past time and lifestyle. What is the backstory for your boat's name?

Since no floor vents, listening to Andrew & John from the 2nd floor stairs landing would be the only likely means to eavesdrop and, in case Abby wasn't asleep, listening to any follow up talk between Andrew and Libby via the keyhole. If Abby waited up for Andrew to get an update on his talk with John, that chat might have been the most provocative and inflammatory for Libby because it would have made clear any intended actions Andrew was considering.

[mbhenty]

Yes camgarsky:

There were other ways of being heard at the borden house.

In summer, if Lizzie had her windows open in her bedroom and windows open in the sitting room, you could possibly and very easily hear someone talking in the sitting room from the bedroom above—if conditions were right. The voices would reflect off the doctor's house next door. Especially at night.

I lived in fall river (small 'f' small 'r' for the small minds that live there) most of my life and in countless 3 decker apartment houses. If our windows were opened we could hear the tenants above us talking, arguing, or complaining about the tenants down stairs...us. Especially on hot, still, evenings. Something to consider.

As for the name of my boat:

SAUDADES is a portuguese word which means "LONGING". Usually a 'sad longing' for a loved one, or place, or thing. One may have 'saudades' for home or for family who live in another part of the world. It is one of those foreign word for which there is no translation into English, and my rational for connecting with my heritage.

Naming a boat is a funny occupation. You have this name and believe that it is uncommon or unusual—thinking you are the only "Saudades" our there. Until you sail into a harbor and find another as I did in Newport, R.I.

Think about how discouraged I was when I discovered that their was actually a company which builds a boat they call the Saudade. An Italian Mega Yacht in the millions.

My last boat was called CHINSTRAP, another called WINDSONG, another SANCTUARY and a few others. My favorite little boat was CHINSTRAP a 22 foot Cape Dory. Wet boat, but fun boat. And it was paid for.

It may be interesting to note, or not, that I drive by Lizzie's farm house in Swansea several times a week on my way to the boat. Saudades is moored nearly in Lizzie's backyard. The shores of the old Borden property bordered the Coles river and lie several hundred feet from my boat.

So, I think of Lizzie... even when I don't expect to.

Here's some eye candy.

[camgarsky4]

I can just imagine your stomach dropping when you saw the "other" Saudade! Is that yours or the other Saudade in the photo? :)
That is a super cool name, so I guess not surprising that someone else thought the same thing. Darn!

I like 'Sanctuary' as a name for a boat which helps you escape the daily grind.

[camgarsky4]

Is the Swansea farm acreage developed housing now? But the house has survived?

How large a farm was it when the Borden's owned it? Presumably it didn't have modern conveniences either?

Studying the area map, it is amazing how there is water everywhere!

[mbhenty]

Yes, the Saudade you see in the photo above, the black one with the teak deck is a 5 million dollar boat built by Wally Boats of Italy. Even Lizzie would have a hard time paying for that one.

Sanctuary was a boat I use to own in the late 80s. I was into the movie Logan's Run. If you remember it was all about finding Sanctuary. I named the boat with "that Sanctuary" in mind.

On Sanctuary my burgee / flag was an ankh.

[mbhenty]

Not sure how many acres the Borden's had in Swansea. But the farm often spoke of by the Borden's was on Gardner's neck road. There were actually two farms there. Borden also owned a large farm on Old Warren Road. A third farm. The two farms on Garder's Neck Road were separated by four blocks or streets. (as it appears today) There was the one with the farm house on it which was across the street from the corner of Gardner's Neck and Lawrence Street. and another near the railroad tracks on the corner of Hetherington Drive. On that plot there was no house. Just an outhouse or barn. That plot of land is all single family homes and the railroad tracks are long gone.

If you study the map below you will see the two A.J. Borden properties. The map is from 1895 (click on may to make BIG)

[mbhenty]

This is my boat, Saudades of Swansea...

In that picture below the Borden Farm today is just behind the trees in the background. It is likely that part of that shoreline in the photo would be the lower half of the Borden farm in Lizzie's day. (click photo to make BIG)

[Albanyguy]

"Lizzie mentions taking hat off after returning from barn, but the witness who saw a woman walking back from barn specifically mentioned she didn't have a hat on. Not sure what that would indicate....but interesting if you choose to believe one or both of these stories."

I think that the witness was correct; Lizzie was not wearing a hat when she went out to the barn. But I think she had a reason for saying that she did. I think that after Lizzie killed Abby, she cleaned herself up and prepared to leave the house and go out to try to establish an alibi for herself. Establishing a time of death was not an exact science and if Lizzie was seen downtown that morning, letting Andrew or Bridget discover Abby's body, the police would probably not have considered her a serious suspect. The murder would probably have been attributed to an intruder, especially if Lizzie left the front door open on her way out. As she came downstairs to leave, she would have been wearing a hat (no respectable lady would appear in public without one; people would notice that and remember). Then Andrew came home just as she was coming down the stairs, ruining her plan. He fell asleep on the sofa and she knew that when he woke up and discovered Abby's body, he would know that she did it. And so, she committed a second murder to cover up the first one. Then, later, when the house was full of neighbors and policemen and she was claiming that she had been in the barn, she noticed that the hat she had taken off when she killed Andrew was sitting on a table in plain sight. To keep anyone from noticing this oddity, she quickly incorporated it into her story: "I came in from the barn, took off my hat and went into the sitting room where I found Father."

[phineas]

About that front door being left wide open if she’d gotten as far as an alibi...it’s strange that this day of all days, the front door was locked - it was Lizzie’s job to unlock it in the mornings. That can’t have been an oversight. What would the purpose have been. To alert her to Andrew’s arrival? Lizzie’s chuckle on the stairs is often said to be because Bridget swore but maybe it was because she’d purposely set that up.

As an aside in the triple locked stronghold that was the Borden house - they left the front door open all day???? Does anyone know Why they did that?

[camgarsky4]

The front door was triple locked when the police checked it around 11:30 that morning after the murders. What's truly interesting is that the door must have been triple locked AFTER Andrew got home. Who re-triple locked it?

Bridget says she didn't, and since house norm was for Lizzie to unlock and lock the front door each morning and night, I find it doubtful Andrew would go rogue on house rules. He likely just closed the door so the self-latch secured.

That leaves Lizzie or an unknown intruder as the secret 'door lockers'. Logic indicates whomever locked that door also participated in Andrews fate mere minutes later. If it was an unknown intruder, then they must have escaped the house thru the back door. The odds of that happening in the few moments that Lizzie wasn't walking towards the back door, looking up at the pigeon roost or looking out the barn loft window have got to be fractional.
Additionally, remember Lubinsky was on 2nd St at that time....so anyone running towards the street away from the back door would have been in his range of vision for a considerable amount of time.

Since I don't buy into the unknown intruder theory, I believe Lizzie triple locked it (to avoid surprise visitors) as she came down from the top of stairs and walked into the dining room to talk to Andrew. This would match perfectly with Bridget's testimony. Also matches with the Elizabeth Montgomery movie scenario!! Maybe they got this piece right. :)