More insulting than smashing their heads in with a hatchet and then leaving their bodies to bleed out and rot?twinsrwe wrote:I agree with both Anthony and Violette. Haven't Andrew and Abby already been through enough? Their killer(s) got away with murder. Justice will never be obtained for these two people. Since it has been 123 years since Andrew and Abby's deaths, exhuming their bodies now would be the ultimate insult to them. Let them rest in peace!!!
Jenning's Journal
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Re: Jenning's Journal
- twinsrwe
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Re: Jenning's Journal
Yes, Kevin, let them rest in peace.
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
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- Posts: 4474
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Re: Jenning's Journal
Here is some interesting information about the robbery of Andrew Borden's bedroom in 1891.
Some discrepancies. Things do not read as they were recorded in history. If you are familiar with the burglary of Andrew's bedroom you may find this interesting.
We find that Andrew, Lizzie, and Emma were shucking peas when the break-in happened. And that the elder Borden's were in the habit of communicating with their daughters by coming and going through the locked door between bedrooms.
Information was released today on the anniversary of the Borden Murders.
Below is the link for the FRHS and the narrative for those, like me, who do not have Facebook.
https://www.facebook.com/FallRiverHistoricalSociety
Fall River Historical Society
2h ·
BREAKING NEWS: 128 YEARS LATER
The Daylight Robbery As Recalled By Emma L. Borden:
In recognition of the 128th Anniversary of the Borden murders, the FRHS is releasing this interesting tidbit of new information … the story continues to get curiouser and curiouser!
In 2011, two red leather notebooks were bequeathed to the FRHS; the volumes are extremely fragile. The first is a journal of defense team notes, with excerpts culled from interviews with various individuals conducted in 1892, recorded in preparation for the Commonwealth of Massachusetts vs. Lizzie A. Borden. The second is a collection of newspaper clippings, marked in ink with cross-references to the journal.
Time-consuming research and transcription in preparation for publication by the FRHS is ongoing.
The volumes descended in the family of Andrew Jackson Jennings (1849-1923) a prominent Fall River attorney and a member of the defense team for Lizzie Andrew Borden (1860-1927). Following Jennings’ death, they passed to his daughter, Mrs. Marion (Jennings) Waring (1887-1973), and then to her son, Edward Saunders Waring (1924-2011), who bequeathed them to the FRHS.
Following is an interview with Emma Leonora Borden (1851-1927) regarding a burglary that occurred at the Borden house on June 24, 1891. The text has been slightly edited for readability, as indicated in square brackets.
The Burglary at Borden House -
“$75 or 80 in money [and] some horse car tickets [was] the only thing of fathers [that was stolen,] – though his desk was ransacked. Good watch & chain, breast pin & earrings [of] plain Roman gold, no stones, shawl pin with ball at each end, & some other little things [that belonged to Mrs. Borden].
[The] first I knew of it I was sitting in front room. Heard father knock on door of my [bed]room – now Lizzies – he called me. I unlocked [the] door & went in – everything was thrown about. He said he found [the] door to hall open & [a] nail in [the] lock. Put it in hands of officers – asked us to say nothing about it. We talked about it.
remembered we were all shelling peas in [the] dining room in [the] morning, L[Izzie] & father & [my]self, with dining room [doors] shut.
Officer took up piece of chain [and] showed [it] to Mrs. B[orden, and she] said it did not look like hers.”
Why is this important?
The “daylight robbery” at the Borden house was brought up at the trial of Lizzie Borden as an example of an event where someone snuck into the home and left without anyone in the family, or neighborhood, knowing about it. Such a situation might work to Lizzie’s advantage as she claimed innocent of the charges and if true, someone came into the house that day and murdered two people without notice.
The report filed by Captain Dennis Desmond Jr. (1854-1926) and relayed to District Attorney Hosea Morrill Knowlton (1847-1902) in preparation for the trial relates details of this incident (The Commonwealth of Massachusetts vs. Lizzie A Borden: The Knowlton Papers, 1892-1892, Fall River Historical Society, 1994, page 74-75, see below). This document is a bit at odds with Emma’s statement to Attorney Jennings above. Additionally, it is believed by some that Andrew and Abby had been at the farm in Swansea that day and only discovered the burglary upon their return home. Emma’s recollection differs in this regard, which could very well lead us to a different context for this crime, occurring the year before the murders.
Interesting? We think so.
Captain Desmond’s report.
The following is transcribed from the original document and has not been edited.
On or about the 24 of June 1891 I was called into City Marshal’s office. Marshal Hilliard said “Mr Desmond, Mr Borden says his house has been robbed. You go with him, and see what there is to it.” Mr Borden and myself left the office and went direct to Mr Borden’s house Second St. I found there Mrs Borden, Emma Borden Lizzie Borden & Bridget Sullivan.
On the 2nd floor in a small room on north side of house I found Mr Borden’s desk. It had been broken open. Mr Borden said “$80.00 in money with 25 to 30 dollars in gold, and a large number of H,car tickets had been taken. The tickets bore name or signature of Frank Brightman.” Brightman was a former treasurer of Globe St. railroad co. Mrs. Borden said “her gold watch & chain, ladies chain, with slide & tassel attached, some other small trinkets of jewelry, and a red Russia leather pocket-book containing a lock of hair had been taken. I prize the watch very much, and I wish & hope that you can get it; but I have a feeling that you never will.” Nothing but the property of Mr & Mrs Borden reported as missing.
The family was at a loss to see how any person could get in, and out without somebody seeing them. Lizzie Borden said “the cellar door was open, and someone might have come in that way.” I visited all the adjoining houses, including the Mrs Churchills house on the north, Dr Kelly’s house on the south, Dr Gibbs house & Dr Chagnon’s house on the east, who might have seen someone going, or coming from Mr Borden’s house; but I failed to find any trace.
I did get a 6 or 8 penny nail which “Lizzie Borden said she found in the Key hole of the door,” leading to a sleeping room on 2nd floor, east end of building. So far as I know this robbery has never been solved.
P.S. Mr Borden told me three times withing two weeks after the robbery in these words “I am afraid the police will not be able to find the real thief.”
(Note: “Capt. Desmonde” and “Robbery Case” handwritten in lead and ink respectively on reverse side of document.)
Some discrepancies. Things do not read as they were recorded in history. If you are familiar with the burglary of Andrew's bedroom you may find this interesting.
We find that Andrew, Lizzie, and Emma were shucking peas when the break-in happened. And that the elder Borden's were in the habit of communicating with their daughters by coming and going through the locked door between bedrooms.
Information was released today on the anniversary of the Borden Murders.
Below is the link for the FRHS and the narrative for those, like me, who do not have Facebook.
https://www.facebook.com/FallRiverHistoricalSociety
Fall River Historical Society
2h ·
BREAKING NEWS: 128 YEARS LATER
The Daylight Robbery As Recalled By Emma L. Borden:
In recognition of the 128th Anniversary of the Borden murders, the FRHS is releasing this interesting tidbit of new information … the story continues to get curiouser and curiouser!
In 2011, two red leather notebooks were bequeathed to the FRHS; the volumes are extremely fragile. The first is a journal of defense team notes, with excerpts culled from interviews with various individuals conducted in 1892, recorded in preparation for the Commonwealth of Massachusetts vs. Lizzie A. Borden. The second is a collection of newspaper clippings, marked in ink with cross-references to the journal.
Time-consuming research and transcription in preparation for publication by the FRHS is ongoing.
The volumes descended in the family of Andrew Jackson Jennings (1849-1923) a prominent Fall River attorney and a member of the defense team for Lizzie Andrew Borden (1860-1927). Following Jennings’ death, they passed to his daughter, Mrs. Marion (Jennings) Waring (1887-1973), and then to her son, Edward Saunders Waring (1924-2011), who bequeathed them to the FRHS.
Following is an interview with Emma Leonora Borden (1851-1927) regarding a burglary that occurred at the Borden house on June 24, 1891. The text has been slightly edited for readability, as indicated in square brackets.
The Burglary at Borden House -
“$75 or 80 in money [and] some horse car tickets [was] the only thing of fathers [that was stolen,] – though his desk was ransacked. Good watch & chain, breast pin & earrings [of] plain Roman gold, no stones, shawl pin with ball at each end, & some other little things [that belonged to Mrs. Borden].
[The] first I knew of it I was sitting in front room. Heard father knock on door of my [bed]room – now Lizzies – he called me. I unlocked [the] door & went in – everything was thrown about. He said he found [the] door to hall open & [a] nail in [the] lock. Put it in hands of officers – asked us to say nothing about it. We talked about it.
remembered we were all shelling peas in [the] dining room in [the] morning, L[Izzie] & father & [my]self, with dining room [doors] shut.
Officer took up piece of chain [and] showed [it] to Mrs. B[orden, and she] said it did not look like hers.”
Why is this important?
The “daylight robbery” at the Borden house was brought up at the trial of Lizzie Borden as an example of an event where someone snuck into the home and left without anyone in the family, or neighborhood, knowing about it. Such a situation might work to Lizzie’s advantage as she claimed innocent of the charges and if true, someone came into the house that day and murdered two people without notice.
The report filed by Captain Dennis Desmond Jr. (1854-1926) and relayed to District Attorney Hosea Morrill Knowlton (1847-1902) in preparation for the trial relates details of this incident (The Commonwealth of Massachusetts vs. Lizzie A Borden: The Knowlton Papers, 1892-1892, Fall River Historical Society, 1994, page 74-75, see below). This document is a bit at odds with Emma’s statement to Attorney Jennings above. Additionally, it is believed by some that Andrew and Abby had been at the farm in Swansea that day and only discovered the burglary upon their return home. Emma’s recollection differs in this regard, which could very well lead us to a different context for this crime, occurring the year before the murders.
Interesting? We think so.
Captain Desmond’s report.
The following is transcribed from the original document and has not been edited.
On or about the 24 of June 1891 I was called into City Marshal’s office. Marshal Hilliard said “Mr Desmond, Mr Borden says his house has been robbed. You go with him, and see what there is to it.” Mr Borden and myself left the office and went direct to Mr Borden’s house Second St. I found there Mrs Borden, Emma Borden Lizzie Borden & Bridget Sullivan.
On the 2nd floor in a small room on north side of house I found Mr Borden’s desk. It had been broken open. Mr Borden said “$80.00 in money with 25 to 30 dollars in gold, and a large number of H,car tickets had been taken. The tickets bore name or signature of Frank Brightman.” Brightman was a former treasurer of Globe St. railroad co. Mrs. Borden said “her gold watch & chain, ladies chain, with slide & tassel attached, some other small trinkets of jewelry, and a red Russia leather pocket-book containing a lock of hair had been taken. I prize the watch very much, and I wish & hope that you can get it; but I have a feeling that you never will.” Nothing but the property of Mr & Mrs Borden reported as missing.
The family was at a loss to see how any person could get in, and out without somebody seeing them. Lizzie Borden said “the cellar door was open, and someone might have come in that way.” I visited all the adjoining houses, including the Mrs Churchills house on the north, Dr Kelly’s house on the south, Dr Gibbs house & Dr Chagnon’s house on the east, who might have seen someone going, or coming from Mr Borden’s house; but I failed to find any trace.
I did get a 6 or 8 penny nail which “Lizzie Borden said she found in the Key hole of the door,” leading to a sleeping room on 2nd floor, east end of building. So far as I know this robbery has never been solved.
P.S. Mr Borden told me three times withing two weeks after the robbery in these words “I am afraid the police will not be able to find the real thief.”
(Note: “Capt. Desmonde” and “Robbery Case” handwritten in lead and ink respectively on reverse side of document.)
- twinsrwe
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Re: Jenning's Journal
WOW, MB, that is an incredibly interesting article!
So, Lizzie must not have always had her bed in the position that is shown in the floor plan, if Emma had unlocked the door and went into Andrew's room, after he had called for her.
I also find it interesting that Andrew was shelling peas with Emma and Lizzie, given the fact that there were 4 women in that household.
Thanks for posting this for us, who are not on Facebook. I appreciate it.
So, Lizzie must not have always had her bed in the position that is shown in the floor plan, if Emma had unlocked the door and went into Andrew's room, after he had called for her.
I also find it interesting that Andrew was shelling peas with Emma and Lizzie, given the fact that there were 4 women in that household.

Thanks for posting this for us, who are not on Facebook. I appreciate it.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
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- Joined: Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:05 pm
- Real Name: George Schuster
Re: Jenning's Journal
When did Lizzie and Emma swap rooms? Before or after the robbery? Emma makes it sound like before.
- twinsrwe
- Posts: 4457
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- Gender: Female
- Real Name: Judy
- Location: Wisconsin
Re: Jenning's Journal
Lizzie and Emma switched bedrooms shortly after Lizzie returned from her trip to Europe in 1890.
The daytime robbery occurred on the 24th of June, 1891.
The daytime robbery occurred on the 24th of June, 1891.
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
-
- Posts: 1581
- Joined: Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:05 pm
- Real Name: George Schuster
Re: Jenning's Journal
Just a quick note about Hiram Harrington's talk with Lizzie night of the murders....sounds like some don't put much merit that this conversation happened or at least to the degree Hiram shares with the newspaper and police. However, I suspect Hiram did have this in-depth talk with Lizzie and we can place strong merit in the evaluation by Hiram of Lizzie's true personality and interaction with her family. My 'reason to believe' is that Hiram is the first person to mention the purpose of Lizzie's visit to the barn....to find sinker lead for the Marion trip. Before Hiram's interview with police (WS pasted below), the fishing trip had not been mentioned by any other witness and that ended up being Lizzie's basis for her alibi at the inquest. So Hiram got that insight somehow and had to be Lizzie. I believe he was cynical enough about the family that he might be the best source (of our choices) for explaining the family dynamic. He didn't try to filter his comments regardless of family dynamics or gender stereotypes...he didn't mask the situation with nuanced usage of the word 'cordial'.
Here is what is in the Witness Statements, page 11 (copied & pasted from an earlier message by Twins)
Hiram Harrington. “When the perpetrator of this foul deed is found, it will be one of the household. I had a long talk with Lizzie yesterday, Thursday, the day of the murder, and I am not at all satisfied with statement or demeanor. She was too solicitous about his comfort, and showed a side of character I never knew or even suspected her to possess. She helped him off with one coat and on with another, and assisted him in an easy incline on the sofa, and desired to place a afghan over him, and also to adjust the shutters so the light would not disturb his slumber. This is something she could not do, even if she felt; and no one who knows her, could be made believe it. She is very strong willed, and will fight for what she considers her rights. She went to the barn, where she stayed twenty minutes, or half an hour, looking for some lead from which to make sinkers for fishing lines, as she was going to Marion next week.”
Harrington and Doherty
Here is what is in the Witness Statements, page 11 (copied & pasted from an earlier message by Twins)
Hiram Harrington. “When the perpetrator of this foul deed is found, it will be one of the household. I had a long talk with Lizzie yesterday, Thursday, the day of the murder, and I am not at all satisfied with statement or demeanor. She was too solicitous about his comfort, and showed a side of character I never knew or even suspected her to possess. She helped him off with one coat and on with another, and assisted him in an easy incline on the sofa, and desired to place a afghan over him, and also to adjust the shutters so the light would not disturb his slumber. This is something she could not do, even if she felt; and no one who knows her, could be made believe it. She is very strong willed, and will fight for what she considers her rights. She went to the barn, where she stayed twenty minutes, or half an hour, looking for some lead from which to make sinkers for fishing lines, as she was going to Marion next week.”
Harrington and Doherty