Odd behavior.

[twinsrwe]

... Lizzie burned the paint-stained dress in the stove (which she probably hid under winter dresses in the dress closet upstairs) because she knew she was in imminent danger of arrest, and the police would be conducting more searches.

It was Lizzie and nobody else who handed over spotless clean stockings, a winter dress, and clean shoes to the authorities, knowing that there would be no blood found on them for the plain and simple reason that she hadn't worn them on that day. That wasn't a cover-up by Alice, the Bowens, mrs Churchill or anybody else who was in the house that day, but Lizzie alone. That action, even more than the burning of the dress, screams deceit and guilt to me.

I agree. The burning of the paint-stained dress was incriminating enough, but handing over spotless clean stockings, a winter dress, and clean shoes was by far more incriminating.

Lizzie burned the paint-stained dress three days after the murders; why was it so urgent that she burn this dress on that particular day? Was Lizzie just incredibly stupid, or was she getting rid of evidence? If Lizzie was not the killer, then she would have had no reason to burn the paint-stained dress, or hand over to the authorities clean stockings, a winter dress, and clean shoes. Did she really think no one would question her actions?

Is it any wonder why she was socially-osterized by the citizens of Fall River for the rest of her life?

Is it any wonder why Lizzie was of the talk of town?

Is it any wonder why Lizzie is still the talk of the town, 122 years after the murders?

[Angel]

Thank god that someone besides me is finally admitting the possibility of incest or some other hanky panky in that family. For years, every time I would bring it up, so many on this forum would refuse to entertain the idea and become unbelievably protective of Lizzie. And then the subject would be dropped. But something had to be really off for someone to have committed such a crime. The crime had to have had a motive, no matter how unpleasing it might be for people to think about.
The really odd thing in the story that keeps popping up in my head is that carriage sitting just outside the house. I wonder how much investigation was done to determine who it belonged to. It seems mighty suspicious.

[twinsrwe]

Angel, I remember you bringing up the possibility of incest. Whom do you think the abuser was, Abby or Andrew? Were they abusing Lizzie, Emma, Bridget or all three women?

At one point in time didn't you also bring up the possibility of Lizzie having a Mental Illness?

[debbiediablo]

Thank god that someone besides me is finally admitting the possibility of incest or some other hanky panky in that family. For years, every time I would bring it up, so many on this forum would refuse to entertain the idea and become unbelievably protective of Lizzie. And then the subject would be dropped. But something had to be really off for someone to have committed such a crime. The crime had to have had a motive, no matter how unpleasing it might be for people to think about.
The really odd thing in the story that keeps popping up in my head is that carriage sitting just outside the house. I wonder how much investigation was done to determine who it belonged to. It seems mighty suspicious.

I am fully open to Andrew taking liberties with not just Bridget but the 'Maggies' who preceded her...and possibly with Lizzie herself when she was younger.

[phineas]

I lean in the direction of incest. Money alone doesn't seem to justify the incredible rage inflicted on the victims. Even the Menendez brothers didn't fire and fire and fire. They just wanted their parents dead. Poison, which seems to have been in Lizzie's mind at some point seems a far more appropriate method if you just want to kill versus rolling up your sleeves for such a physical assault unless you....have an axe to grind? (Sorry)

I've always seen Lizzie as her father's favorite and if anyone was the right age for incest, it was Emma. She was a teen before Andrew married again and by the time Lizzie was a teen, Emma was still young in her twenties. I've always wondered about the older sister protecting the younger. Even though Lizzie seems to have the stronger personality, ten years is a lot and Lizzie had to have looked up to her. One thing I've read about incest is that often the anger against the perpetrator is displaced onto the spouse who looks the other way, who should have protected them. The rage against Abby (as shown by almost double the amount of whacks) could be that. Even if Lizzie wasn't abused herself, but only knew of Emma, that would be enough anger for a loving sister.

I've wondered if the jailhouse conversation had to do with incest; if that exclamation happened, Emma indicates it's something she thinks the lawyer should know. Possibly as a mitigating factor? "You have given me away" is a weird phrase, and doesn't fit with a victim ideology unless - and this happens too - the victim blames herself and feels complicit somehow in the abuse.

[irina]

Even so, what was the catalyst to make it happen that morning? Something caused something to snap in someone's brain that morning. If one wants to argue premeditation, what was the definite issue that made it happen at that time, or caused someone to choose that time?

[debbiediablo]

I lean in the direction of incest. Money alone doesn't seem to justify the incredible rage inflicted on the victims. Even the Menendez brothers didn't fire and fire and fire. They just wanted their parents dead. Poison, which seems to have been in Lizzie's mind at some point seems a far more appropriate method if you just want to kill versus rolling up your sleeves for such a physical assault unless you....have an axe to grind? (Sorry)

I've always seen Lizzie as her father's favorite and if anyone was the right age for incest, it was Emma. She was a teen before Andrew married again and by the time Lizzie was a teen, Emma was still young in her twenties. I've always wondered about the older sister protecting the younger. Even though Lizzie seems to have the stronger personality, ten years is a lot and Lizzie had to have looked up to her. One thing I've read about incest is that often the anger against the perpetrator is displaced onto the spouse who looks the other way, who should have protected them. The rage against Abby (as shown by almost double the amount of whacks) could be that. Even if Lizzie wasn't abused herself, but only knew of Emma, that would be enough anger for a loving sister.

I've wondered if the jailhouse conversation had to do with incest; if that exclamation happened, Emma indicates it's something she thinks the lawyer should know. Possibly as a mitigating factor? "You have given me away" is a weird phrase, and doesn't fit with a victim ideology unless - and this happens too - the victim blames herself and feels complicit somehow in the abuse.

Axe and ye shall receive?? I totally agree especially regarding the jailhouse conversation and Emma being the right age; however, I also see Lizzie as being the paternal favorite which can also run hand in hand with incest.

[phineas]

Great question. Oh how I wish I knew! Leaving aside an intruder and considering that the murders were done by Lizzie, why that day and not another? The breaks in daily pattern are Emma being away, Morse being a guest, general sickness, and Bridget outside doing windows. Also Abby not babysitting as planned. The weapon being new (gilt), could mean it was bought for the occasion. If it needed to happen before Emma returned then Lizzie had a few more days to play with and say she assumed Morse was gone for the day that morning (since she had no contact with him and didn't know his plans and didn't hear Andrew's lunch invitation). It's just Lizzie and Abby in the house for at least an hour (Lizzie has seen Bridget wash windows countless times), Abby's been ill and might have seem weaker. But crucially, Emma is not there, no one is.

For all we know, Abby said she was going upstairs to rest in an aside to Lizzie and she thought she'd take her unawares in bed. Or, a harsh word from Abby at Lizzie sneaking up on her, who knows? And Lizzie panics and starts to kill because she's creeping around with the hatchet in hand, considering whether she'll go through with it.

Overheard talk of a will to be witnessed between Morse and Andrew the night before? She'd already told Alice her dark thoughts and it seems a bit dumb to say it the night before you PLANNED to murder. It's a little close in time. A few days, yes, much better. But if new information made her way that night when she came home, then she had to move the timetable up. I love the idea of Morse being there to help Andrew commit Lizzie and that's the information that makes her say, yes, tomorrow, as she lies down in bed. Because she doesn't try to establish an alibi but hangs around the house, it seems Andrew was always going to die too. I don't think Lizzie was versed in science well enough to consider the estimations of time of death - and that science could prove the murders happened independently, thus leaving the pesky problem of a murderer in the house for 90 minutes.

Why do you think she snapped? Any theories?

[Curryong]

I tend to think the 'You have given me away!' accusation, spoken in jail, was in context with various strategies the defence was discussing in Jennings office in case the verdict didn't go the way they hoped. Emma may have been privy to these conversations and might have spoken of tensions within her sister, peculiarities which may have driven her to kill. I don't believe Emma would have done that, but Lizzie, brooding alone in her cell and feeling low, might have thought so.

Don't forget, before Andrew married Abby he employed a distant relative, Elizabeth Morse, to superintend the house and his girls, as well as employing a maid. He'd hardly do that if he was intent on seducing his older child.

Lizzie had a resentment of Abby, born of many years of brainwashing by Emma, and no doubt much talk in later years between the sisters about how much financial influence Abby had over their father. Decades-long resentments about being second in a parent's love and affections can boil over into hatred as powerful as any possible collusion in or ignoring of incest on Abby's part.

[debbiediablo]

I think the murders were planned for that morning while Emma was far, far away. She had to be the squeaky clean sister with the ironclad alibi so she could inherit the estate with no strings attached because Lizzie would need access to the best defense money could buy. The sisters felt entitled to Andrew's estate (never mind that Abby was his wife while almost all of it was earned) and his out-of-character generosity with Mrs. Whitehead may have convinced them, rightly or otherwise, that their inheritances would be limited either by Abby's estate (if she got it all they might have paid a huge price for their meanness over the years) or by Andrew himself if he didn't die intestate.

If there was incest involved, and I'm far from convinced there wasn't nor am I convinced there would be irrefutable evidence if there were, the blame and hatred get mixed up with the natural love for a parent. Except Abby wasn't their parent and warranted no natural love, especially from Emma who had immense influence on Lizzie. Odd as it seems, the father may be the abuser but the mother is the target of rage for not being the protector. And if the incest ends when the daughter reaches adulthood, the guilt of engaging in a taboo act and the shame of being abandoned can do very twisted things to the psyche.

[debbiediablo]

I made a mid-life career change from Master's in Information Science to Ed.D. in education leadership. One of my first self assignments involved assessment of a little girl whose father was in prison for domestic abuse and whose mother had literally been chased into the court house by this gun waving spouse. We went to a large hospital in SW Wisconsin for extensive psychological testing, and coincidental to this, a physical exam indicated this seven year-old had been sexually molested. When questioned, she described in graphic terms what had been going on for almost three years. Later in the day she asked for some fresh grapes in the hospital cafeteria. Her mother refused, saying she had no money which was true. Several hours later as we prepared to leave, the mother asked if I could 'lend' (read 'give') her $3.00 as we passed the cafeteria on the way to the front entrance. I assumed it was for the grapes and handed it over. Foolish me. That day I learned my first lesson about parent inhumanity to child. The mother bought a pack of cigarettes! And then I went back and bought grapes. And then the mother ate over 2/3 of them. Then I bought more and said, firmly bordering on furious, "Let's let ____ eat ALL of these." As heinous as the crime was, maybe Lizzie killed them less for money and more to bring order to her own life of chaos.

[irina]

To say anything specific entails creating theories and all of us can come up with a bunch of them, some based on research that others have done.

I reject premeditation for a number of reasons. For one I don't see Lizzie going for a late breakfast, etc. then committing a planned murder in the upstairs guest room. Abby could have finished the room earlier and never gone back upstairs. Then there would have to have been a plan B if the guest room was plan A. That's just a for instance. If there was a plan B for somewhere else in the house then Bridget would have to be completely locked out of the house and she wasn't as the screen door was unlatched while Bridget was outside. Of course maybe plan A worked so there wasn't any reason to reconfigure the activity. At any rate Lizzie apparently seemed normal to Bridget that morning in the time before Abby's demise and I wouldn't expect anyone to be so normal if they were about to commit their very first premeditated murder, with an axe no less.

So then we look at rage and passion. While I don't think Lizzie did it, if she did it I favour something mundane rather than profound. Like I have mentioned in other places maybe an argument with Abby about wearing an old house dress to go out. It could easily move from Lizzie telling Abby she is an embarrassment to Abby making a bit of a threat, like maybe she thought she had some sort of proof that Lizzie had done the burglary the year before. Maybe Abby told Lizzie to straighten up or she'd have a word with Lizzie's father. Something like that. It almost seems to me Abby could have been killed as an act of self defense, but self defense in that someone wanted to keep her quiet or neutralize her. I also feel if Lizzie did it she had a way to justify her actions and that is why she could say she was innocent and live the rest of her life in a caring and charitable fashion. A feeling that it was a sort of self defense might have been a comforting justification.

I think Andrew was killed as a cover-up whether by Lizzie hiding the first crime or by an intruder just trying to get away. The key to the mystery is why Abby was killed and what set that off. I suppose it's possible an assassin came to kill Andrew, got caught by Abby who was subsequently killed, but I think that is stretching things a bit. I think we have to go with a period of time between the deaths. Maybe not a full 90 minutes, but a significant amount of time.

[debbiediablo]

When I think of premeditation it's the act, not the place, that's premeditated. Two locations in the Borden house invite privacy for murder: the guest room and the master suite on the other side of the house. I'm fairly sure Lizzie could've lured Abby to the guest room on some pretense (maybe she did!) and then attacked her. "Mrs. Borden, come quickly. I fear Uncle John brought bed bugs!" or whatever.

Lizzie herself said she spent a lifetime of not revealing her emotions. For those of us who cry at Hallmark commercials, this kind of emotional control (or perhaps pathological absence of emotion) is difficult to understand. But given her behavior after the murders (guilty or innocent) I would not expect her to be a basket case of nerves beforehand.

I don't think the burglary had anything to do with it: Andrew already knew who was responsible and so did everyone else in the house. Nor do I think Lizzie gave Abby nineteen blows to the back of the head with a sharp hatchet, leaving gaping holes in her skull, over anything so trivial as wearing an old dress. Or as a delusional brand of self-defense although I can see Lizzie viewing it exactly that way!

You give Lizzie much more credit than I do. She may have seemed caring and charitable throughout the remainder of her life but that's pretty darned easy to do with enough money to burn that was earned entirely by someone else and with no direct descendants to plan for. Plus the charade had to be maintained.

I doubt the assassin hung around 60-90 minutes and then killed Andrew to get away...why not just leave immediately after the first murder?

At one point I thought Abby was the target and Andrew was killed because he would know Lizzie did it. I've changed my viewpoint on that: I think she was target #1 because she had to die first. If there had been a way for Andrew to live perhaps that would've been Plan A, but there simply wasn't. Or, more to my thinking, he had betrayed Lizzie and Emma and had to die, too....

[Curryong]

LOL at the bed-bugs, debbie. I can imagine John being the sort of man who would have slept in not very clean long-johns (underwear) and then, smelling of bed, putting a two-days worn shirt and trousers over them, pulling a comb through his hair, and then trotting downstairs for his breakfast.

By the way, where do bed-bugs come from? I know they used to infest feather bedding a lot, but I read somewhere there have been complaints from people who've found them in modern hotel bedrooms.

[debbiediablo]

I have no idea where they come from other than from one infestation to a new one. We went to a conference this spring and the hotel room was part of the package. My roommate and I were crawling around with our laptops shining the screens on the bedding and headboards, bed rails, etc. to make sure we were safe! I might burn the house down if it were infested with anything that sucks blood, crawls or slithers.

[twinsrwe]

Bedbugs may enter your home undetected through luggage, clothing, used beds and couches, and other items.

http://www.webmd.com/skin-problems-and- ... nfestation

Dwellings can become infested with bed bugs in a variety of ways, such as:
• Bugs and eggs inadvertently brought in from other infested dwellings on a visiting person's clothing or luggage;
• Infested items (such as furniture, clothing, or backpacks) brought in;
• Nearby dwellings or infested items, if easy routes are available for travel, e.g. through ducts or false ceilings;
• Wild animals (such as bats or birds) that may also harbour bed bugs or related species such as the bat bug;
• People visiting an infested area (e.g. dwelling, means of transport, entertainment venue, or lodging) and carrying the bugs to another area on their clothing, luggage, or bodies. Bedbugs are increasingly found in air travel.
• Though bed bugs will feed on pets, they do not live or travel on the skin of their hosts, and pets are not believed to be a factor in their spread.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bed_bug

[Curryong]

Thanks very much for that, twinsrwe. Why do I suddenly feel very itchy? (Smile) So it seems as if original sources of infestation come via wild creatures like birds.

I've never been unlucky enough to see a bed-bug in real-life but I've read that Victorian feather beds had to be cleaned regularly which included going through the mounds of feathers encased in the linen cover, a long and laborious process as over weeks feathers would apparently clump together.l

When I was very young I would visit my grandmother and occasionally sleep on a feather mattress as she had a four poster bed in her spare room. It was lovely, very warm and cosy.

[irina]

Thanks for posting on bedbugs, Twinsarewe. My companion and I don't travel a lot anymore but we camp out when we do. Bedbugs are easier and easier to encounter. We all need to be vigilant and avoid motels whenever possible IMO.

I look at Lizzie's charities also by the kind of charity. With lots of money people can do ostentatious charity like funding a public building then putting their names on them, or a family member's name. Thus there could be the Andrew J. Borden civic center for example or the Lizbeth A. Borden school for the performing arts. Or people can give large amounts to fashionable charities and get their names in the papers.

It is said Lizzie helped young individuals get educations, she helped pay individuals' hospital bills, and she may have bought books for poor children. We are not sure all the things she did because they were done privately and quietly and with a personal touch and I would assume genuine concern for real human beings.

Jesus of Nazareth historically said to do our charities in private...and not to announce them to the world as the hypocrites do. Sounds to me like Lizzie followed her Christian faith.

[debbiediablo]

Thanks for posting on bedbugs, Twinsarewe. My companion and I don't travel a lot anymore but we camp out when we do. Bedbugs are easier and easier to encounter. We all need to be vigilant and avoid motels whenever possible IMO.

I look at Lizzie's charities also by the kind of charity. With lots of money people can do ostentatious charity like funding a public building then putting their names on them, or a family member's name. Thus there could be the Andrew J. Borden civic center for example or the Lizbeth A. Borden school for the performing arts. Or people can give large amounts to fashionable charities and get their names in the papers.

It is said Lizzie helped young individuals get educations, she helped pay individuals' hospital bills, and she may have bought books for poor children. We are not sure all the things she did because they were done privately and quietly and with a personal touch and I would assume genuine concern for real human beings.

Jesus of Nazareth historically said to do our charities in private...and not to announce them to the world as the hypocrites do. Sounds to me like Lizzie followed her Christian faith.

Depends on whether or not she forgot the part about, "Thou shalt not kill..."

[twinsrwe]

You're welcome, Curryong and Irina. I have not encounter bed bugs, either, but I know a couple of people who have. I did a search for pictures of bed bug bites, and found the following pics which made me sick.

bedbug-bites-baby.png

infant-baby-bed-bug-bites.jpg

[irina]

Also, Debbie: Honour your father and your mother. (That your days may be long upon the earth...well, Lizzie lived a long time for those days. )

Some adults get much larger around bites from beg bugs. They look truly horrendous. Every time I camp out (in my vehicle which is large & has a bed), sometimes in brutally cold weather, I know I'm avoiding those things.

My husband got scabies in the theater when we went to see 'Saving Private Ryan'. He was thoroughly disgusted WWII was hell~maybe the scabies were like a special effect or something.

[debbiediablo]

You're welcome, Curryong and Irina. I have not encounter bed bugs, either, but I know a couple of people who have. I did a search for pictures of bed bug bites, and found the following pics which made me sick.

bedbug-bites-baby.png

infant-baby-bed-bug-bites.jpg

That poor baby! Worse than a bad case of chicken pox!! I'm not sure thank you is quite the right response... ...more like AAGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

[debbiediablo]

Also, Debbie: Honour your father and your mother. (That your days may be long upon the earth...well, Lizzie lived a long time for those days. )

Some adults get much larger around bites from beg bugs. They look truly horrendous. Every time I camp out (in my vehicle which is large & has a bed), sometimes in brutally cold weather, I know I'm avoiding those things.

My husband got scabies in the theater when we went to see 'Saving Private Ryan'. He was thoroughly disgusted WWII was hell~maybe the scabies were like a special effect or something.

Such is why we all need to wear black latex bodysuits!

[Curryong]

Eek, scabies from a cinema seat, bites all over a baby. It's getting risky leaving home!
I wonder whether the baby's family brought them back from a hotel or whether it was an infestation at home. I've never checked a hotel bed until quite recently, but I'll certainly be doing so from now on!

I don't suppose there were bed bugs in the Borden home. I can imagine Abby being a very fastidious housekeeper and I don't suppose John brought anything with him but a few smells!

An excellent book by Judith Flanders 'Inside the Victorian Home', has a whole section Pages 48-49 on bed-bugs and fleas and how people dealt with them!

Another very clean housekeeper, Jane Carlyle, fought the good fight against bed bugs for decades and won, she thought, until one day her husband complained of being bitten in bed. She examined blankets and sheets minutely until
Quote,

'On a sudden, I paused in my operations; I stooped to look at something the size of a pin-point; a cold shudder ran over me; as sure as I lived it was an infant bug! And, O heaven, that bug, little as it was, must have parents --grandfathers and grandmothers, perhaps!'

The carpenter was called to dismantle the bed. The usual system at this stage was to take the pieces of the bed, and all the bedding, into an empty room or outside, wash the bed frame with chloride of lime and water and sprinkle Keatings powder everywhere, then wait and repeat daily for as long as necessary.

If the infestation was out of control the bed and mattress were left in an empty room that was sealed to make it airtight, and then sulphur was burned to disinfect the bed and the surrounding area, to prevent the spread of the problem to the walls and floors.'

No wonder by the end of the century iron beds and chain-spring mattresses were coming into vogue!

[irina]

YUK!

In Tudor England folks wore a bit of fur on a string around the neck, so body vermin would congregate there. It's hard to believe this would work. I doubt it did because the bugs want blood, not just to crawl around in fur. Perhaps the fur should have been treated with prussic acid, then hung around the neck.

[Curryong]

If ever the opportunity to time-travel came up (of course it won't) things like that are why I wouldn't choose to go further back into the past than the 19th century, (and it was bad enough THEN.) It's a terrible thing for a history buff to say but the sheer filth of cities and towns before proper drainage and sewage, fleas, bugs of all kinds and the overpowering stench would be just a complete turn-off.

[debbiediablo]

YUK!

In Tudor England folks wore a bit of fur on a string around the neck, so body vermin would congregate there. It's hard to believe this would work. I doubt it did because the bugs want blood, not just to crawl around in fur. Perhaps the fur should have been treated with prussic acid, then hung around the neck.

Ha! Ha! Ha! One way or another their problems would be over.

[twinsrwe]

You're welcome, Curryong and Irina. I have not encounter bed bugs, either, but I know a couple of people who have. I did a search for pictures of bed bug bites, and found the following pics which made me sick.

bedbug-bites-baby.png

infant-baby-bed-bug-bites.jpg

That poor baby! Worse than a bad case of chicken pox!! I'm not sure thank you is quite the right response... ...more like AAGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

No need to thank me, Debbie, I know what you mean. Seeing those two babies with all of those bites just tore my heart out!!!