Hot Muggy Weather

This is the place to discuss the city and the locality of the murders and the surrounding area --- both present and past.

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Kat
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Post by Kat »

Around here, when they factor in the humidity they say on the weather:
"It was 80 today, but because of the humidity it feels...
(wait for it...........)
83!!!!"
Really, they do say that. I've seen and heard them give a span of only 3 to 5 degrees allowing for huge amounts of humidity.
It proves nothing- I just thought it was funny. :smile:
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Kat
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Post by Kat »

There is a message on my answering machine today, July 6th.
It is a Weather Report from Fall River, by Leonard Rebello:

"It is 10:15 in Fall River and this is a day that is 73,74 degrees And Humid.
If you move- you Sweat.
This is one of those days.
I just thought I would let you know."


--underlined is where he put emphasis.
Thanks Len for the weather report- eyewitness!
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Post by theebmonique »

Thanks for sharing this with us Kat !


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Post by Allen »

Kat @ Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:37 pm wrote:There is a message on my answering machine today, July 6th.
It is a Weather Report from Fall River, by Leonard Rebello:

"It is 10:15 in Fall River and this is a day that is 73,74 degrees And Humid.
If you move- you Sweat.
This is one of those days.
I just thought I would let you know."


--underlined is where he put emphasis.
Thanks Len for the weather report- eyewitness!
Thanks Kat. :smile:
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Post by tasheka22 »

"Very hot and close." Page 449 - Fleet: Q-What sort of a day generally was it in Fall River that day with respect to heat? A- It was a very hot, one of the hottest days, I think, we had. Page 570 - Harrington: Q- In addition to heat I will ask you the direct question,--was it what was called close? A- Yes, sir, suffocating, you might say............

The older generation called humidity closeness....in my opinion that is what these people meant..even my grandmother called it close..when the humdity was high.
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Post by theebmonique »

Tasheka, may I please ask from where you are quoting testimony ? Prelim or trial ? Thanks !


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Post by Allen »

I think those are quotes from this thread.
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Post by Allen »

Allen @ Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:03 pm wrote:
Tina-Kate @ Sat Jul 02, 2005 1:41 am wrote:Here are some examples from the Trial. I apologize in advance if this all runs together in one paragraph--that's how my computer posts these & I'm unable to edit.

Page 284 - Bridget: Q- It was hot weather and you didn't need much fire after breakfast? A- No, sir.

Page 482 - Fleet (re barn loft): "Very hot and close." Page 449 - Fleet: Q-What sort of a day generally was it in Fall River that day with respect to heat? A- It was a very hot, one of the hottest days, I think, we had.

Page 570 - Harrington: Q- In addition to heat I will ask you the direct question,--was it what was called close? A- Yes, sir, suffocating, you might say.


It looks as though she may have been quoting augusta's post?
Page 692 - Mullaly: "Well, I know it was hot, that is all, very hot. You know it was a hot day."

Page 1112 - Hilliard: Q- What sort of a day was it with reference to heat on the 4th of August last? A- Very hot.

Page 1422 - Hymon Lubinsky: "It was a hot day."

Knowlton also refers repeatedly to the day being hot in his closing argument.



It could be considered, since so many policemen testified to it being hot, that it was stressed to disprove Lizzie being able to stand it in the barn. However, Lubinsky, one of the most prominent witnesses for the *Defense* also claimed Aug 4 was hot. So, why would latter day Bordenites *want* to discredit people who were actually *there*???
It looks at though she may have been quoting augusta's post? Which, when I quote it, doesn't seem to run together as augusta stated is a problem for her.
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Post by theebmonique »

Yes, Melissa yoy are right. It is partially from a post by Tina-Kate back on page 1 of this thread. It took me a minute to scan through and find it.

I don't know how it works for everybody else to clearly indicate who, what, or where you are quoting from, but for me:
---I click on/highlight the part I want to quote...right click on copy...
---then open the new post for me to'write' in..and click paste.
---Then, highlight it again and click on "quote" (at the top pf the post
that is being created.
---Then, below the white-highlighted things I am quoting,I type out
whatever comment it is I want to make.

Is that how it works for everybody ? What other ways are there ? Maybe I could learn some better ones ?


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Post by Kat »

Well, at the top of each person's post there is a white box which says "Quote" next to a white box which says "Report."
I click on "Quote."
If it's a really long one- I will edit it after it's quoted- but I make sure to signify I have taken out part. It'd probably not a good idea to do that but it saves people from reading the whole thing all over again- as long as I say I have extracted this certain part. Because by doing it that way it will automatically include the person's name and date and time.

There's another way I use, which is a copy-paste (I think as you described) but then I add the [q] before it.
And then the [/q] after it. Then I put two dashes-- and say who is being quoted.
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Post by theebmonique »

Kat @ Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:57 pm wrote:Well, at the top of each person's post there is a white box which says "Quote" next to a white box which says "Report."
I click on "Quote."
If it's a really long one- I will edit it after it's quoted- but I make sure to signify I have taken out part. It'd probably not a good idea to do that but it saves people from reading the whole thing all over again- as long as I say I have extracted this certain part. Because by doing it that way it will automatically include the person's name and date and time.

There's another way I use, which is a copy-paste (I think as you described) but then I add the [q] before it.
And then the [/q] after it. Then I put two dashes-- and say who is being quoted.
IT WORKED ! I did what you said Kat..and it was much easier than what I have been doing ! THANKS FOR HELPING !!!


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Post by tasheka22 »

I copied it directly from tina-kate's post on the first page of this thread...she states its from the trial. :smile:
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Post by tasheka22 »

Tina-Kate @ Sat Jul 02, 2005 2:41 am wrote:Here are some examples from the Trial.

Page 482 - Fleet (re barn loft): "Very hot and close." Page 449 - Fleet: Q-What sort of a day generally was it in Fall River that day with respect to heat? A- It was a very hot, one of the hottest days, I think, we had.

Page 570 - Harrington: Q- In addition to heat I will ask you the direct question,--was it what was called close? A- Yes, sir, suffocating, you might say.
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Post by theebmonique »

Yes, Tasheka, as I posted, I did find where you were quoting from. Then Kat and I talked about 'how' to quote. Citing sources can be tricky sometimes...especially when you are new. I really liked that Kat showed a quicker way to quote. THANKS Kat !


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Post by tasheka22 »

Yeah..i saw that...so really they did comment on the humidity..even made the clear distinction between heat and "closeness"...which was stated as "suffocating" :wink:
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Post by Audrey »

Mon Dieu...

It is so hot today I can barely tolerate it.

Humid and hot and no end in sight. It is so humid that when you pull the car into the garage and the A/C (sorry Kat) drains on the garage floor it takes hours to dry.....

I do not know how the kids can stand it--They are outside swimming-- But they get out of the water to run about and jump back in.

I don't remember it being so hot when I was a kid. It usually isn't so hot in Paris-- But we always left the city right after Bastille day and didn't come back until the first week of September. My point though is that kids don't seem to mind the heat like adults.
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Post by Kat »

Tashika, you have quoted Tina-Kate quoting Fleet at the trial:
Here are some examples from the Trial.

Page 482 - Fleet (re barn loft): "Very hot and close." Page 449 - Fleet: Q-What sort of a day generally was it in Fall River that day with respect to heat? A- It was a very hot, one of the hottest days, I think, we had.

Page 570 - Harrington: Q- In addition to heat I will ask you the direct question,--was it what was called close? A- Yes, sir, suffocating, you might say.


Then I noticed you claim:
"The older generation called humidity closeness....in my opinion that is what these people meant..even my grandmother called it close..when the humdity was high."
Whatever the older generation called it this is no proof, because the reference to closeness is to the air in the barn loft specifically. If your grandmother called it suffocating too when it was humid, in a barn loft...maybe...
Here is the testimony about suffocating and closeness in context:


Trial
Fleet

Q. How long did you stay up in the loft at that time?

Page 482

A. Perhaps two minutes.

Q. What was the temperature in that loft?

MR. ROBINSON. Are you going to give it exactly?

MR. MOODY. No, but whether hot or cold.

A. Very hot and close.



Trial
570
Harrington
Q. You say the windows were covered with cob-webs and clothes? [in the barn loft]
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, can you give any other description of the atmosphere, except that it was very hot?
A. Not until the pitching of the hay around. I noticed then it contained considerable dust,

Page 571

very disagreeable breathing there.

Q. After you began to pitch the hay around?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. In addition to heat I will ask you the direct question,---Was it what was called close?
A. Yes, sir, suffocating, you might say.

Q. Was it before or after you began to pitch the hay that it was suffocating?
A. Yes, I noticed that it was so before we touched anything.

Q. How long do you think you stayed in the loft of the barn?
A. I think I stayed there about twenty minutes or a half hour.

Q. Were you doing these things which you described, or did you do anything else there?
A. That was all, sir.

--I think this needed to be straightened out. It was a bit misleading. I don't think the "closeness" of the barn loft is germaine other than that the point is trying to be made that Lizzie could not normally have spent 20 minutes or 1/2 an hour up there fooling around, because of this.
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Post by Kat »

I'm trying to think why how-hot-was-it matters?
If it was too hot for Lizzie to be in the barn loft, then she couldn't have spent 20-30 minutes in there, according to people who believe she was. If it was so hot why wasn't she sweating when Andrew's body was found?
Does it have to be hot in order for Bridget to get mad enough to kill Abby because she was feeling ill and Abby made her wash windows anyway? This is another reason some people wish to believe it was so hot.
Does it need to be so-hot so that Lizzie loses her temper? Or someone else loses theirs because they are affected by the heat (and humidity)? :smile:
What does the heat have to do with it, really?
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Post by FairhavenGuy »

I think, Kat, there is supposedly a link between heat and increased violent crime, which is why people try to promote the idea it was very hot on August 4.
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Post by Harry »

This is an interesting article on heat and crime. Although mainly concerned with crime and full moons it does have some data on heat.

http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dl ... 070&Ref=AR

Some of the more interesting points:

"Conversely, crime rises with the temperature, peaking when the mercury hits between 80 and 90 degrees.

But - bucking conventional wisdom - crime doesn't appear to increase with humidity."

I've read elsewhere that when the temperature reaches 95° and higher the crime rate begins to drop.

Ironically, Thursdays was the least filled crime day. Not in Fall River in 1892.
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Post by Allen »

Kat @ Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:43 am wrote:I'm trying to think why how-hot-was-it matters?
If it was too hot for Lizzie to be in the barn loft, then she couldn't have spent 20-30 minutes in there, according to people who believe she was. If it was so hot why wasn't she sweating when Andrew's body was found?
Does it have to be hot in order for Bridget to get mad enough to kill Abby because she was feeling ill and Abby made her wash windows anyway? This is another reason some people wish to believe it was so hot.
Does it need to be so-hot so that Lizzie loses her temper? Or someone else loses theirs because they are affected by the heat (and humidity)? :smile:
What does the heat have to do with it, really?

Personally, I don't think she was ever in the loft at all to begin with. We have a witness who saw her coming from the direction of the barn. That doesn't place her in the loft, it doesn't even really place her in the barn. In my opinion, all the testimony proves is that she was in the yard. We don't know where she was coming from. The heat matters because it puts some things into perspective for that day. If it was really hot, that is part of the true story of the murders, whether it contributed to the killings or not. As Kat pointed out, many good people researched this, so it must matter to others as well. For me, it matters just because I want as complete and accurate a depiction of that day as possible. Even down to the heat. I will believe the testimony of the day before I believe research performed over 100 years later. I think the closeness is also germaine. It was hot and close, which means in a place like the barn loft, it would've been unbearable to stay there for any period of time. If it was hot, would Bridget have tried to hurry with the windows to get back into the house as soon as she could? If it was hot and close, wouldn't the attic of the house also be hotter than anywhere else in the house? Heat rises. Wouldn't Bridget's room have been very hot and close as well?
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Post by Audrey »

I think the time of year/weather made it easier for the killer to do the deed...

1)- Emma would more than likely not be away in the winter.

2)- Bridgett would not be cleaning windows in the rain or cold.

3)- If there had been snow on the ground, footprints would have been left in it.

It really goes on and on...

Although I think the heat/season helped the killer, I also think those old folks died because of what they were planning to do-- and not because of a heatwave and someone getting over-hot and especially pissed.

I have been noticing lately how subjective heat/cold are. It is HOT in Iowa. 90+ almost every day. I think it is terrible but others seem to tolerate it better.

You will always see some people fanning themselves, sweating and complaining while others think it is not so bad..

Look at Kat-- she has a car with no AC and I run mine full blast on 75 degree days....
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Post by Kat »

I appreciate everyone's sincere and considered opinions on this matter of why the heat might be important! Thanks!
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Post by Allen »

When I saw this article, this thread popped right into my mind. I don't know how I even remembered it because it's been a few months. It could be because the name of the article and the name of this discussion are similar. This is an article I recently found in The New York Times.

I did go back and reread the thread to make sure this article would perhaps belong here.

As for the link of elevated violent crime rate and heat, there are studies that show a definite increase in violent crimes when the temperature is hot. Hot temperatures are said to increase aggression levels. One such study showed that for every 1 degree increase in average temperature, four more violent crimes per 100,000 are likely to be committed. Most violent crimes occur in the hottest months of the year, most especially the summer months.

Image


http://www-personal.umich.edu/~tnienber ... tions.html

http://www.psychology.iastate.edu/facul ... me%20rates'
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Post by Kat »

It's going to be 81 tomorrow, here. :smile: I sit outside when it's hot.

BTW: the stats for violent crime rising with each degree- is that in America or does it include the Southern Hemisphere, or the Equator areas? Do they have lots of violent crime, or is the rising heat only affecting peoples who are not used to it?
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Post by Allen »

Kat @ Wed Feb 01, 2006 11:26 pm wrote:It's going to be 81 tomorrow, here. :smile: I sit outside when it's hot.

BTW: the stats for violent crime rising with each degree- is that in America or does it include the Southern Hemisphere, or the Equator areas? Do they have lots of violent crime, or is the rising heat only affecting peoples who are not used to it?
It was a study done in the United States, and it does include the entire United States. This study was done because the researchers also wanted to estimate what effect global warming may have on crime rates.
Interestingly enough the Southern states, which on average stay warmer all the year round, already have a higher crime rate than the rest of the country. In fact, it has been estimated at different points in the past that some of our Southern states had some of the highest crime rates in the world.


http://www.journaltimes.com/articles/20 ... 607449.txt

http://www.apa.org/monitor/feb98/global.html

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/region.htm
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Post by 1bigsteve »

Right on Allen. That remind's me of a scene in one of my sci-fi flicks "It Came From Outer Space" where the Sheriff is saying most murders are commited at a certain temprature. Any cooler and people are easy going, any hotter and it's too hot to move.

I doubt the Bordens killings were related to the heat though. Their deaths appear too well thought out to be a spur of the moment thing. I heard the temp. that day was about 80 degrees? Hardly a heat wave (it was hotter earlier in the week I guess) I read about in some books but if I had to wear a multi-layer dress in that heat I might be looking for a hatchet myself!

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Post by Kat »

But it is a Northern Hemisphere situation?
And maybe an Industrialized nation?

So it's not necessarily implying that normally hot countries are more crime-ridden, like lower-economical Equatorial places?
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Post by Allen »

Kat @ Thu Feb 02, 2006 5:46 pm wrote:But it is a Northern Hemisphere situation?
And maybe an Industrialized nation?

So it's not necessarily implying that normally hot countries are more crime-ridden, like lower-economical Equatorial places?
The study only concerns the United States so I wouldn't think it would imply anything about any other countries. However, you can do a quick check of the crime rates for other countries that you may have had in mind. Although looking at the crime rates alone wouldn't prove anything without some sort of study and formal research being done.

While I haven't read any studies that have been done on the temperature in say, South Africa, affecting the crime rate they have experienced a high rate of crime. I don't know of any studies that have been conducted on temperature and crime in South Africa, there may have been but I'm not aware of them, so I cannot cite any information about crime and the temperatures there.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3676112.stm

http://www.rense.com/general39/reose.htm

http://www.christianaction.org.za/firea ... istics.htm
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Post by Allen »

It's too bad we didn't have one of these groups back then.:lol:


http://forensics.accuweather.com/products.htm

http://www.forensic-weather.com/
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