Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Having had several "Maggies," in the Irish side of my family, I can assure you that it is not slang or a disrespectful nickname.

"Maggie" is a common nickname for Margerat, Margurite and Marjorie.
"Peggy," is also a nickname for these proper names.

I don't think anyone has come up with a satisfactory reason for calling
Bridget "Maggie."

A while back this question was broached and I contacted several ethnic societies at home and abroad. They seemed surprised that the name Maggie was anything more than just a nickname.

Thanks William. I didn't mean to infer it was disrespectful. Perhaps the term "slang" was not right.

I do see the use of the word "maggies" to describe "young Irish girls" in Finnegans Wake by James Joyce, but that book makes up so many linguistical rules of its own, it's hard to see what is Irish tradition and what was made up by Joyce. Perhaps that book was my source of my idea of what "Maggie" meant.

That book was written in the 1920s and 30s.

Here's from Bridget's Cross Examination. It's implied that the name COULD cause offense. Perhaps that's simply because it's not her name.

Q. [By Mr. Robinson] You were called Maggie?
A. Yes sir.
Q. By Miss Emma and Miss Lizzie?
A. Yes sir.
Q. But that was not unpleasant to you?
A. No sir, it was not.
Q. Not at all offensive?
A. No sir.
Q. Did not cause any ill-feeling or trouble?
A. No sir.
Q. Did Mr. and Mrs. Borden call you by some other name?
A. Yes sir, called me by my own right name.

I am not Irish, nor did I mean to imply anything insulting by repeating what was told to me by a cast member of the musical. This person also said "Bridgets" was used as a generic term for Irish girls, especially those of unskilled background. The song "The Maggie Work" was Mr. McGovern's reference to the type of work done by domestic Irish maids, thus the name becomes as an adjective and carries a not terribly flattering estimation in that particular song . It is only relevant and of interest in any way to me as it may indicate a certain prejudice, on the part of Lizzie and Emma that they may have been insensitive to Bridget's station in life. I understand Lizzie had a preference for Scottish maids at Maplecroft.

Reading some older detective / mystery novels, they use the name "Jane" to refer to a generic female. Or "John" for a generic male.
Yes, a slang name can be demeaning or insulting.
Guys and dolls?

bobarth @ Wed Nov 15, 2006 7:22 pm wrote:Kat

That is in the trial documents Volume 1 page 379 of the trial papers and page 348 on Adobe Acrobat Reader.

Is there any way to cut, copy and paste this information, if so I would post it?

Adobe Acrobat's PDF format was designed for universal access.
I've never tried to highlight and copy, but you can try to print to text and then copy words. You will lose formatting.

[quote="RayS @
Adobe Acrobat's PDF format was designed for universal access.
I've never tried to highlight and copy, but you can try to print to text and then copy words. You will lose formatting.[/quote]

Hey Thanks Ray, will give that a try!!!!

bobarth @ Thu Nov 16, 2006 2:25 pm wrote:

RayS @ wrote wrote: Adobe Acrobat's PDF format was designed for universal access.
I've never tried to highlight and copy, but you can try to print to text and then copy words. You will lose formatting.

Hey Thanks Ray, will give that a try!!!!

I know you can highlight and copy from other web sites.

I didn't take umbrage at anyone's remarks about the name, "Magge."

After all, this is a format for a free and open discussion and we're all here for the same purpose - to exchange information and learn more about Lizzie.

In all fairness I was not entirely correct when I said that "Maggie," was not a slang expression. Cassell's Dictionary of Slang does provide several (uncomplimentary) definitions for "Maggie."

william @ Thu Nov 16, 2006 3:14 pm wrote:I didn't take umbrage at anyone's remarks about the name, "Magge."

After all, this is a format for a free and open discussion and we're all here for the same purpose - to exchange information and learn more about Lizzie.

In all fairness I was not entirely correct when I said that "Maggie," was not a slang expression. Cassell's Dictionary of Slang does provide several (uncomplimentary) definitions for "Maggie."

Stephen Crane's scandalous novel was titled "Maggie, a Girl of the Streets" by this newspaper reporter and journalist. His life itself was a scandal in its day.

Hmmm... I was wondering if the lyrics were based on this misunderstanding of the name "Maggie" as being a name called Bridget based on an earlier maid's name. (Is this McGovern's work that is referred to- and is about the Borden case?)
That is how these *legends* are passed along and enter the realm of *fact.*
Because they don't really ask the questions- like we do here.
I'm with William- we have to ask.

Chris McGovern is the man who wrote the latest Lizzie Borden musical, music and lyric that I refer to. I had stayed to meet the cast after the performance and posed the "Maggie" question. That was the answer I got.
http://members.aol.com/bearluvva/index2.html

Given the clear distinctions between men's and women's work in those days, I'm amazed by the perceived need for a maid in the Borden household. There were three adult women present and no small children. Andrew's legendary frugality seems to indicate that he might have been happier without the additional expense of a maid. The lack of a maid leaves Abby in charge of the household with the (willing?) assistance of Emma and Lizzie. If Bridget's presence was the result of a concession by Andrew to Abby so that she might have a willing assistant for household chores, it makes sense. That would also indicate a degree of resignation on Andrew's part to a rift between the female members of the Borden household, one for which he was willing to pay to placate.

Which only goes to prove that he wasn't as tight as they said he was, nor was he as generous as he could have been.

Does anyone know---did the Borden household always have a maid, or was it only after the girls got older? I always wondered about that, because it did seem like a relatively small household, and Bridget didn't seem to have a large amount of chores to do. Maybe it WAS a concession to the girls.

There may have been more justification for the expense of a maid while the girls were children.

Andrew would have to recognize the "right" of his daughters to not bother themselves with housework if the concession was to them. It makes more sense to me that he would have supported Abby as being in charge of the household in his absence, and if hiring a maid was the only way she could effectively do that, then he went along with it. This would seem to indicate that he had either given up on his daughters' co-operation, or he still viewed them as children.

I don't have my books in front of me, so I'm relying on memory, but it seems as if the Borden Girls took care of their own rooms. Bridget didn't go near them. And on the day of the murders, Abby was taking care of the guest bedroom and also, according to Lizzie, took care of the sewing. And Abby, most mornings, according to Lizzie, went out to the market to get food for dinner. Bridget was cleaning the windows and I suppose, cooked breakfast. She also testified that she put out the pails for the iceman and the water for his horse. It seemed as if the cleaning tasks were spread out amongst the four women in the house.

Lizzie had set it to herself to iron handkerchiefs that morning, but they were HER handkerchiefs. "10 of my best handkerchiefs" she proudly said at the inquest. I don't know if she was also ironing Andrew's and Abby's and Emma's handkerchiefs.

Lizzie also refers to getting laundry from down cellar and taking it upstairs before she basted a piece of tape onto a dress. So Lizzie was doing laundry as well, or at least part of the process.

Andrew, I'm sure, sat and read his newspapers.

Perhaps anyone who knows the domestic internals of the Borden family better than me can correct me or add to what I've said.

Having a maid was not the great luxury that it is today. There were numerous poor immigrants desperate for work and who worked cheap. The 1880 census shows Mary Greene working for the Bordens. Reading the testimonies and witness statements, it is pretty clear Bridget did the heavy stuff,- washing the clothing, ironing, cooking meals and cleaning up, sweeping the front hall, scrubbing windows (and probably floors). Abby seems to be doing the light dusting downstairs, keeping her own room, and food shopping. The "girls" kept their own rooms upstairs and probably helped with the guestroom as they used it like a lounge, although Abby made the bed and dusted it after Uncle John. Mr. Borden had Mr. Anderson and Mr. Eddy to help on the farm and odd jobs around the house when needed like chopping wood. I think he had also asked Uncle John to look into another man for him for the farm, which was brought out in John's statement.

I have to wonder, if Emma and Lizzie had been sons, would Andrew have found it necessary to hire help with the farm or odd jobs?

I would imagine he would want sons to join him in the business world. Gentlemen did not do handyman jobs as a rule -although maybe they might want to do some outdoors manly things as a pastime or for exercise. But then again- Andrew might have figured he could save some cash if he could get the boys to pitch in now and again!

Did Andrew hold himself above "menial" tasks?

I suspect when Andrew was managing his furniture business, or dealing with his banks, or his tenants, he probably micro-managed and took care of everything himself. His last walk about town before his murder involved stopping by a location he owned that was being worked on by carpenters and he went as far as to salvage a broken lock that was being thrown out. So I think he rolled up his sleeve and did all the menial tasks in regard to his business and his property, but in terms of domestic household and farming tasks, I suspect he let the women and the farmhands take care of things. For his day and age, that wasn’t unusual or politically incorrect.

I expect that Andrew would want a son or sons to appreciate the difficulty involved in earning a dollar. To do otherwise might foster the habit of squandering money, which I'm sure he was opposed to.

On the other hand, by the time they were 30 or 40 years of age, there would be little reason for sons to be living in Andrew's household. Daughters didn't have the same opportunities as sons and were not expected to be self-supporting. Oppression and impatience may have played a large part in the murders.

If a maid was necessary due to Abby's advancing years and lack of physical capabilities, why wouldn't Emma and Lizzie be expected to take up the slack? Not just for themselves, but for the entire household, unless they were considered as something other than household members by all concerned. Perhaps Abby didn't want to relinquish control of the house.

Yooper @ Fri Nov 17, 2006 2:52 pm wrote:Did Andrew hold himself above "menial" tasks?

I don't know that he did. Andrew took the laundry upstairs on Thursday morning and apparentlyalways took the clothes-line in himself. (Bridget: Preliminary Hearing)

So there are some indications that he helped around the house.

He also took his own slops out.

I recall from census that the Bordens usually had a maid. I'm not sure where my sources would be located right now. Also at Ferry Street there was a maid, and posibly a *couple.*
Lizzie didn't go down and get her laundry that we've heard- it was brought up and folded on the kitchen table for her and Emma to take upstairs, by Bridget.
Lizzie only did her own handkerchiefs. She sprinkled them with water in order to create steam with the flat iron.

I also had not heard that Bridget put water out for the ice man's horse. I think we discussed such a thing a long time ago but we never knew the answer. I wonder where else that might have come from?

The girls did their own rooms, and I believe Emma helped clean the parlour- but anything other than her own room or handkerchiefs it's my understanding that Lizzie did not do.

Inquest
Emma
108
Q. Did you have, yourself, any particular duty in connection with the house?
A. Some things I always did.
Q. What were they?
A. I always took charge of the parlor, my sister and I, we always took charge of the guest chamber and our own rooms.
Q. That is, you and your sister did that?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Not your separate duty, but yours and hers?
A. I did most of it, sometimes she assisted.
Q. Did your mother never have charge of the guest chamber?
109
A. I did not know that she ever did. When I was home I dont think she ever did.
Q. You dont know how it happened that she was having the work of the guest chamber on this morning that she died?
A. No Sir.
Q. Any other duties that you and Lizzie did about the house, regular duties I mean?
A. No. I dont think there was anything that we did steadily; just a as we felt, if we wanted to, we did.

Those are really interesting comments you guys.

Yes Bobbie here it is. It's Alice Russell. Why is she allowed to quote hearsay when the person who spoke it is in the courtroom? Is this proper?

Trial
Q. Anything about doing anything to any member of the household; not herself, but anyone else; anything to her father. She was afraid that someone would do something.
A. Oh, she said, "I am afraid somebody will do something; I don't know but what somebody will do something." I think that was the beginning.

Q. Please state that.
A. "I think sometimes---I am afraid sometimes that somebody will do something to him; he is so discourteous to people." And then she said, "Dr. Bowen came over. Mrs. Borden went over, and father didn't like it because she was going; and she told him where she was going, and he says, 'Well, my money shan't pay for it.' She went over to Dr. Bowen's, and Dr. Bowen told her---she told him she was afraid they were poisoned ---and Dr. Bowen laughed, and said, No, there wasn't any poison. And she came back, and Dr. Bowen came over." And she said, "I am so ashamed, the way father treated Dr. Bowen. I was so mortified." And she said after he had gone Mrs. Borden said she thought it was too bad for him to treat Dr. Bowen so, and he said he didn't want him coming over there that way.

Q. Now have you stated substantially all you remember about that

Page 380 / i402

talk the night before?
A. Yes, All that I can remember.

Maybe Abby was cleaning up after Uncle John upstairs because Lizzie was too lazy, not particularly close to her Uncle as Emma was, and Emma was away. Abby was supposed to be getting company I think, as well.

Yooper @ Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:56 pm wrote:I expect that Andrew would want a son or sons to appreciate the difficulty involved in earning a dollar. To do otherwise might foster the habit of squandering money, which I'm sure he was opposed to.

On the other hand, by the time they were 30 or 40 years of age, there would be little reason for sons to be living in Andrew's household. Daughters didn't have the same opportunities as sons and were not expected to be self-supporting. Oppression and impatience may have played a large part in the murders.

If a maid was necessary due to Abby's advancing years and lack of physical capabilities, why wouldn't Emma and Lizzie be expected to take up the slack? Not just for themselves, but for the entire household, unless they were considered as something other than household members by all concerned. Perhaps Abby didn't want to relinquish control of the house.

Arnold Brown offers a rational answer to this question. Wouldn't they have needed Andy's permission.
Didn't somebody once post a reason for so many unmarried girls in those days?

Kat @ Sat Nov 18, 2006 6:47 am wrote:Yes Bobbie here it is. It's Alice Russell. Why is she allowed to quote hearsay when the person who spoke it is in the courtroom? Is this proper?
...

Good question.
Hearsay is what others say, not what you yourself observed or witnessed.
Are you looking for something that isn't there?