Another Dead Cat

Nancie · Post by **Nancie** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 3:10 pm

In other words Constantine, it is OK to go off-topic
if KAT does. otherwise you will get your head chopped off! (and no birthday greetings)

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 3:36 pm

nancie, I am sure no slight was meant in missing your birthday. Both Stefani and Kat have been quite busy with trying to get the Hatchet out. I don't tend to read the birthdays at the bottom of the main page.

So I wish you a belated HAPPY BIRTHDAY. Hope you had a good day.

Nancie · Post by **Nancie** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 4:07 pm

Thank You Harry!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Oct 11, 2004 12:13 am

Harry @ Sun Sep 19, 2004 4:18 pm wrote:On the subject if cats, there is a short unsigned letter to Knowlton (HK225, p-241, The Knowlton Papers) dated June 14, 1893:

"H. M. Knowlton

Sir-
Why do you not ascertain who the milkman was, who supplied the Bordens with milk for years. He said he knew for a fact that Miss Lizzie decapitated a kitten which belonged to her step-mother. If she would do that for spite, she might do worse."

I don't know how long the Borden's received their milk from their farm nor when the alleged killing occured.

The lack of a signature makes it dubious but it does give some idea of the cat rumors of the time.

I found this in my archives from a post of mine:

"See OUIJA, also, from Knowlton Papers, transcribed (KK) here in Privy:
Section relevant provided...

'Q. Did Lizzie have a cat?
A.. Yes - yellow cat - departed - violent

Q. Who killed it?
A. She - axe

Q. Whose lap did it jump into?
A. Jim Wilder - July 7 - 90. *

Q. Where did he live?
A. No. 2 Second street, Fall River

Q. Whom did he tell it to?
A. Susy Wilder - she told it to Tish Thomas - manicure - at Rosalie Butler's - Tremont street.

Q. What hotel?
A. Fall River House'

--Note 'Titia' & 'Tish', 'Manicur'...pretty odd...like a conspiracy to get this story across?
Also note OUIJA gives the date as July 7, 1890--But Lizzie was in EUROPE at that time! "

--The letter is an 1893 undated document.

--The cat story is not in Pearson's "Legends of Lizzie" essay but I'll keep checking other Pearson.
--Ah, it's page 262 in Masterpieces of Murder, the same book, different chapter heading: "The Final Word- The End of the Borden Case."

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Mon Oct 11, 2004 2:57 am

Wasn't the one about Lizzie killing the kitten disproved because of timing? I think it was supposed to have happened while Lizzie was in or still traveling to or from Europe?

Thanks for finding that again, Kat! That is what I was refering to.

Happy Belated Birthday, Nancie! When was it exactly? Hope you had a great time!

Gary · Post by **Gary** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 2:17 pm

Happy Belated Birthday Nancie

One of the problems I can see with Sullivan's story through little Abby, is that Lizzie is said to have told her step-mother a few days after the alleged decapitation, that if she wanted to find her cat she could locate it in the basement. If the cat was laying around the basement for several days, surely someone would have noticed it as they went about their regular routines. In addition Little Abby was not exactly an unbiased source and she was speaking some eighty years after the event. Nevertheless, I wouldn't completely discount the stories about Lizzie behaving cruelly toward animals. There is no reason that I can think of as to why she could be cruel to animals that annoyed her or 'set her off' so to speak and those that she kept as pets. As I believe I've said before, I wouldn't want to be around when Lizzie turned angry.

Does anyone recal the 'spells' that were mentioned both as to Lizzie and her mother Sarah? Wasn't the term 'spells' a Victorian euphamism for strange behavior and mood swings that women underwent? Of course we know today that Victorian men thought of all women as emotionally driven and perhaps mentally fragile creatures prone to unusual behavior especially during the menstral cycle. I wonder if Lizzie and her mothers spells may have taken the form of violent acting out and outbursts of temper which were excused as women problems.

Gary

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 5:05 pm

One of the main sources for Sarah and Lizzie's *tempers* or *personality faults* comes from Det. Batchelder's "Sanity Survey" of Borden friends, townsmen and relatives.
Sarah, tho in her own time, was friends with a suffragette- which may have had some menfolk not so enamoured of her personality.
This survey was commissioned just after the grand jury was seated.

Knowlton Papers
" #HK102
Report, handwritten in ink.

November 24, 1892

H. A. Knowlton
District Atty.
New Bedford, Mass.

Sir,
      I have interviewed the following named persons in reference to the rel-
atives of Lizzie Borden who said as follows:

Capt. James C. Stafford North St. New Bedford.
       I use to know quite well the mother of Lizzie Borden, her name was
Sarah Morse. She had a sister and brothers. john now in Fall River,
another brother who is a Blacksmith and is now out West. Mrs. Morse the
mother of Lizzie Bordon was a very peculiar woman. She had a Very bad
temper. She was very strong in her likes and dislikes. I never knew or
heard of any of the Morses or Bordons was ever Insane or anything like it.
I use to live in Fall River and always knew the Bordens and the Morses.
Mrs Gray who lives on this St. may tell you something aboute them, also a
Mrs Almy who lives on Franklin St, Fall River.

Mrs. - Holland Daughter of Mrs. Gray Resides on North St. New Bedford.
Same house with Mrs. Gray. I never heard my mother say that Lizzie
Bordon her mother or any of the Morses is or ever was Insane or anything
like it. I always have heard that they were somewhat peculiar and odd. I
have heard my mother talk considerable about Bordens and the Morses
but never heard her say that any of them were Insane.

Abraham G. Hart Cashier Savings bank Fall River. I have live here most
all my life. I never knew much aboute Lizzie Borden or her mother. I
never knew much about the brothers of Lizzie Bordens mother. Always
known of them. I never heard that any of the Morses or Bordens was ever
Insane.

S. H. Miller 93 Second St. Fall River opp. the Bordon House. I have lived
in Fall River 64 years. Bordon use to work for me. I know the Bordons
and all of the Morses. the father of Lizzies mother was Anthony Morse. I
use to know his two brothers. Know the brothers of Mrs. Morse, Lizzies
mother. One is now supposed to be out West. I never knew or never
heard that any of the Morses is or was Insane. Know they were somewhat
peculiar. Anthony Morse had two brothers George and Gardiner Morse.
I was not a witness at the trial. I did not intend to be. I saw Mr. Borden a
little while before the murder. Bridget, the Servant girl came running
into my house and said both was dead just then a man was passing I
called him and told Bridget to tell him what she told me. She did and
that man was a witness. I did not want anything to do with it and I did not
go near the house.

Rescom Case 199 Second St. Fall River. I have lived in Fall River 57 years
and I know all the Bordens and the Morses well. A sister of Mrs. Morse
(Lizzies mother, married his cousin, a man named Morse, they now live
here in Fall River. I use to know Anthony, father of Lizzies mother. He
has a brother now living in Warren Mass. the woman that was murdered
use to visit my house often, but she use to keep her affairs to herself pretty
well, but I assure you I have my opinion of Lizzie Borden and I hope they
will get more evidence. My wife dont know any more than I do aboute
the Bordons or Morses. We never heard that anyone of them is or ever
was Insane but I think some of them worse than Insane.

Nov. 26.
John S. Brayton Fall River. I have lived here great meny years. I know the
Morses Mother of Lizzie Borden was Sarah, her father was Anthony
Morse. I think her sister is dead. Anthony Morse was a farmer, after he
owned a milk route. I never heard of anyone of them as being Insane or
having any streak of Insanity.

D. S. Brigam Ex. City Marshal of Fall River I use to know the Morses
never heard of any of them as being Insane, but this girl Lizzie Borden is
known by a number of people here to be a woman of a bad disposition if
they tell what they know.

Geo. A. Patty, Fall River I did not know much aboute the history of the
Morses but never heard that any of them is or was ever Insane but Lizzie is
known to be ugly.

Mrs. Geo. W. Whitehead 45 4th St. Fall River Sister of Mrs. Borden who
was murdered never heard that any of the Morses was Insane but ugly.
Since the murder people have said if she is guilty she must be Insane.

Mrs. William Almy Franklin St. Fall River Always known the Bordens
and the Morses, but for several years I have not known much aboute any
of them. Some 30 years ago my husband who is now dead was in compa-
ny with Mr Bordon. I use to know the brother of Mrs. Morse (Lizzies
Mother) also her sister. I think their was 4 brothers. I have never heard
that their was ever any Insanity or anything like it among any of the
Morses.

Chester W. Green 80 years old lives in Fall River and have for 40 years. I
know the Bordens and the Morses but I dont know much aboute. Never
heard as any of them was ever Insane or anything like it.

William Carr lived in Fall River for 40 years I know the Bordons better
then I know the Morses. The Bordons are peculiar people but I never
heard that any of the Bordons or the Morses is or was ever Insane.
Respectfully,

     Moulton Batchelder .
Dist. Police"

Gary · Post by **Gary** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 5:28 pm

Hi

Thats interesting. Thanks for pulling that up so quickly. It seems that the Bordens were regarded as peculiar and Lizzie may have been 'ugly' but there was no overt insanity. That reminds me of a book I read about murderers called The Mask Of Sanity. If she was insane we could argue that she masked it, and if she wasn't, her personal peculiarities concealed the ability to kill. Lizzie can't win.

I seem to sense that the people being interviewed were looking for institutionalization before they were ready to say there was insanity in the families.

Gary

Constantine · Post by **Constantine** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 8:56 pm

I believe that's The Mask of Sanity, by Hervey Cleckley (of the team of Thigpen & Cleckley of "Three Faces of Eve" fame).

This is not specifically about murderers, but psychopaths, who have no sense of guilt. They are not necessarily--or even usually--murderers, though they might casually murder someone who gets in their way.

Gary · Post by **Gary** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:13 pm

Hi Constantine

It has been a long time since I read that book, but I now recall that you are correct-it did not deal with murderers per-se. it dealt with the ability of psychopaths to hide their lack of a conscience and their lack of feeling for anyone but themselves.

Gary

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:32 pm

Do you guys think there is such a thing as multiple personalities, because I don't, and I find that some do.

Constantine · Post by **Constantine** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:57 pm

I don't know. Current thinking tends to be skeptical. Nicholas Spanos terms it a "social construct," if I'm not mistaken. This seems to mean that it is, perhaps unintentionally, produced by the expectations of those involved. Refusing to accept the "alters" is said to be usually effective as treatment. Personally, I am inclined to accept Christine Sizemore ("Eve"), but not Shirley Ardell Mason ("Sybil"). Certainly, the attention given to the accounts of their cases and others has produced a lot of fakes, but perhaps there are genuine, though rare, cases.

Sometimes I wonder if reaction to belief in unusual phenomena sometimes produces plausible myths. For example, I remember that in the movie Arachnophobia, Harley Jane Kozak's character says "Nobody remembers back to when he was two." Yes indeed they do. I do.

Gary · Post by **Gary** » Wed Oct 13, 2004 9:42 am

I would tend to believe that, except in very rare cases, multiple personalities are a result of an individuals subconscious desire to act out in ways that he/she knows are unacceptable in normal society.

About 16 or 18 years ago I recall a class I took for my undergraduate degree in criminal justice. It was tentatively accepted among the academicans in those days that multiple personalities were probably legitimate. Although a number disagreed vociferously. I went along with the program, but I recall having my doubts.

I have distinct memories from the period in which my mother was pregnant with my sister. Since she is two and a half years younger than I am, I am confident that I had clear memories well before the age of
3 and some that go back earlier than when I was two.

Gary

Wordweaver · Post by **Wordweaver** » Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:40 pm

It's generally accepted that the earliest explicit memories go back to about 18 months. Implicit memories can be formed from birth onward. Otherwise you'd never remember how to talk, walk, etc.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:07 pm

Hi Wordweaver!

I've been thinking more about what I think might really be behind *multiples*- maybe Maunchausen?

I do think there is a Maunchausen Syndrome and maybe the *Multiple* experiences the attention they are getting and it's a positive re-inforcement in the clinical sense that they may create these alternate personalities for attention-seeking reasons, mainly...and to fulfill that need of the clinician to discover something new- as was remarked upon earlier.
........

I have some suspect memories due to our father's interest in taking home movies in the early 1950's.
But there is one memory in my baby carriage which is not like any old photograph- and that is seeing the Nitnay Lion on the Penn State campus- I would've been about 18 months or less.

Constantine · Post by **Constantine** » Wed Oct 13, 2004 11:29 pm

Perhaps we should continue this in "Stay to Tea"?

(I must say, though, that I think we've pretty well killed our curiosity about the cat, though perhaps I shouldn't presume to speak for everyone. What do you think?)

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 12:35 am

Actually, after having some significant questions answered in the realm of psychoanaylsis, I am fully ready to quote Pearson on *The Cat*. I like to see where things lead, first, naturally. The book has been next to me, ready.

"No collection of Bordeniana is complete without mentioning the legend of the expressman and the fable of the kitten. The latter shall come first, as the briefest and the more disagreeable and apocryphal. According to this, the defendant in the celebrated murder trial, some years before that event, was one day annoyed by a kitten which was running about the house. Taking the kitten under one arm and seizing a hatchet in the other hand, she disappeared into the cellar, where the chopping block was kept. After a brief absence, she returned upstairs, remarking grimly:
'There, I guess we won't be troubled by that animal any more!'
This is repeated, with shuddering horror, whenever her name is mentioned; I have heard it, at second hand, from an alleged eye-witness. Yet I cannot think it anything but a slander. Her love for animals, which was so well illustrated in her will, seems to me conclusive on this point."

--Masterpieces of Murder, An Edmund Pearson True Crime Reader Edited together with an original essay on the Borden Case by Gerald Gross with an introduction by Miriam Allen deFord, "The End Of The Borden Case: The Final Word", 262, Bonanza Books, New York, 1963. Essays by Pearson 1924-1930, copyright through 1958 by Mary S. Pearson.

--The story about the *expressman* must be delayed for another topic, another time(?)
--Tantalizing, yes?

--Is this a story Lil' Abby told Pearson?

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 2:28 am

You've got my attention, Kat. What is the legend of the "expressman"?

Nancie · Post by **Nancie** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 2:21 pm

reminds me of Kerry throwing out the word:
"Orwellian" hello. "expressionman"? please talk
English

Wordweaver · Post by **Wordweaver** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 5:10 pm

Kat @ Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:07 pm wrote: I've been thinking more about what I think might really be behind *multiples*- maybe Maunchausen?

I do think there is a Maunchausen Syndrome and maybe the *Multiple* experiences the attention they are getting and it's a positive re-inforcement in the clinical sense that they may create these alternate personalities for attention-seeking reasons, mainly...and to fulfill that need of the clinician to discover something new- as was remarked upon earlier.

Hmm, that's an interesting idea. I think the whole issue is exceedingly complicated, and that there may be half a dozen different things creating the appearance of MPD. (Actually, these days it's called DID -- Dissociative Identity Disorder.) My best guess is that some are faking consciously, some trying unconsciously for attention, and some are so deeply shattered by horrific experiences that they have created alters to shield themselves emotionally. And I'd bet there are plenty of people who are somewhere in between.

I read recently that almost all multiples are extroverts -- maybe they're creating little families for themselves, consciously or not. It all moves in the uneasy ground between dream, hope, and reality, and very little of it can be scientifically tested.

As for Lizzie -- could she have been multiple? I don't know. Certainly by the time she was 32, that house was a little closet of hell. How much is known about her childhood?

I have some suspect memories due to our father's interest in taking home movies in the early 1950's.
But there is one memory in my baby carriage which is not like any old photograph- and that is seeing the Nitnay Lion on the Penn State campus- I would've been about 18 months or less

You're from Pennsylvania? I live in Silicon Valley now, but I spent almost all of my first 42 years there.

Lynn

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 11:10 pm

Yes Kat...bring on the 'expressman' story !

Tracy...

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 12:15 am

"The other legend is more pleasing. There came one day to the house (whether the humble old home on Second Street or the more spacious Maplecroft, I do not know) an express messenger, bringing in his wagon a wooden box for Miss Borden. She met him inside and asked him to open the box for her. He started to tear off the top with his hands, when Miss Lizzie remarked:
'Wait a minute. I'll go down cellar and get the hatchet.'
She was gone but an instant, but when she reappeared the man was not there. Wondering, she ran to the window and looked down the street. Far away and already vanishing in a mighty cloud of dust went the express wagon at top speed; the driver was standing up and lashing at his horse, in terror for his life."
-Pearson-see earlier citation. Page 262-3.

--I guess this is like "The Wells Fargo Wagon Man" as in the song in the movie The Music Man.

There is another story here, after 2 paragraphs on the "Tilden-Thurber" incident:

"In the story of the spiritualistic seance at the home of Mr. Morse's nephew, we return once more to rumor and gossip. According to this tale, that quaint old gentleman, John Vinnicum Morse, was himself present on the evening when ghostly aid was invoked. The control told them to hunt for certain bloodstained handkerchiefs, hidden by the murderer of Mr. and Mrs. Borden as he fled from town on the fatal morning. The search was to be made under some stones beside a road leading out of Fall River. The hunt was made; the handkerchiefs were found; and Lizzie's innocence established. Q.E.D.

How do such yarns begin? A newspaperman was sent to inquire about this one, and he talked with the tall and venerable John Vinnicum Morse, in person. That gentleman informed him that no handkerchiefs had been found, no search had been made, and no seance had never been held. He added, so says my informant, the reporter: 'Young man, if you want to know my opinion, I do not believe that that young woman is guilty.'

For a few years, neither rumor nor fact concerning the Borden household agitated Fall River. Then, about 1904, another addition was made, not to gossip, but to veritable history. A local newspaper office received a curious postcard message. The communication was to this effect:

'Miss Emma Borden of French Street has left for California. She is threatened with lung trouble, and her friends are much worried.'

The message was unsigned, and the writing unfamiliar to the editors of the paper. The card had been addressed to them and then enclosed and mailed in an enevelope. The newspaper was one that had been friendly to Miss Lizzie, but the editors were, nevertheless, a little disquieted. They recalled the predictions made the night before the slaughter of Andrew Borden and his wife, and they wondered if the ax were now being whetted for Miss Emma. They telephoned to the house and managed to speak to the younger daughter. She confirmed the report that her sister was leaving town, but denied all the rest of the message. She was reticent as to Miss Emma's address and the cause of her departure."
....
"The attorneys for the Commonwealth did not share the opinion already quoted that Miss Emma was without any knowledge of the murder. They held that she was in no doubt whatever about the identity of the assassin. They hoped that the horror of the killings would affect her - as the weaker-willed of the two sisters - and cause her to make admissions which would tend to clear up the mystery. This never happened."
....
"Many persons in Fall River believe that Bridget had guilty knowledge, and that she retired to Ireland 'with a fortune.' The luck that gave Miss Lizzie fifteen or twenty minutes clear, with neither Bridget nor Mr. Morse about, is used as an argument in Miss Lizzie's favor. But it is an even more incredible instance of luck for an 'outsider' murderer, since he had to count not only on the absence of Miss Emma, and upon avoiding Miss Lizzie herself, at the time of the first murder, when she was in the house, and upon the truly miraculous chance of her going to the barn loft on that preposterous errand of the sinkers, for precisely the time he needed to slaughter Mr. Borden."
...
"A friend of mine has an ingenious theory that the murders were committed by a Chinaman, one of Miss Lizzie's Sunday-school pupils. This obliging Christian convert, overcome with grief at hearing of his teacher's sad life at home, decided to remove her parents, brighten her life, and enrich her with two hundred and fifty thousand dollars all at one or two strokes. It was to be his good deed for that day. How he got in, or out, is not explained....I think that he was born of my friend's fancy - invoked probably by his recollections of the fact that hatchets were favorable weapons in those carefree days when the Hip Sing and On Leong tongs were carrying on their warfare."

--There was a reference to these Tong Wars in San Fransisco, I believe, in the LBQ - probably as a letter to the Editor.

--Pearson. See earlier cite. Pages 262-269. I believe this essay in this book was published in 1928, after Lizzie's death.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 12:34 am

You're from Pennsylvania? I live in Silicon Valley now, but I spent almost all of my first 42 years there.--Lynn

Yes I was born there as was other family members. We traveled back to visit almost every other year for ages.
Stefani is a Penn State Grad with her Ph.D. from there.
I think some of the nicest people are from PA!!

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 2:54 am

Thanks, Kat, interesting reading. The story of the "expressman" reminds me of the tale (from Lincoln I think?) of the old shed on a property of a friend of Lizzie's that was ruining the view of the water. The owner said that next time Mike was over, she'd have him take down the shed. Lizzie apparently grabbed an axe and said, "Why wait?" Something to that effect.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 9:09 pm

What's odd about Pearson is that he collected these stories and repeated them, even tho he admitted that most he didn't believe. I suppose it was his own way of giving the audience what they wanted- scandal and rumor and gossip, tho with his remarks that they probably were not true.

I think that's odd, tho I like him as an author.