Andrew at the Side Door

[Harry]

See Rebello, page 71, for the total: $23,225, as his estate.

We would multiply that figure by ? [what] for 1912.
(If multiply by 18, = $418,050)

Using the inflation calculator the figure of $23,225 in 1912 would be worth about $510,000 in 2007.

http://www.westegg.com/inflation/

[Yooper]

Maybe a couple of points need to be made. First, Abby was seen by Mrs. Churchill when she was halfway up the stairs because she and Bridget were looking for Abby in the guest room at the time. Lizzie specifically asked them to look upstairs for Abby and there was only one place upstairs that made any sense to look at the time, and that was the guest room. If we take the premise that Abby's body might be seen when halfway up the stairs, then it doesn't follow that her body must be seen when halfway up the stairs. All that follows is that she might or might not be seen, and unless someone was in the habit of peeking along the floor into and through the guest room from the stairway, then Lizzie or anyone else might have ascended the stairs without being aware of Abby's body. Secondly, if there was a crowd assembling outside the house when John Morse arrived, they must have come from somewhere, and they were very likely discussing the events. There may have been people walking or even running to join the crowd as John Morse made his way up Second street. I seriously doubt that if there was a crowd present, Morse was completely unaware of why they were there. If his first thoughts were of how the events affected him, then he probably needed to think a bit before entering the house and becoming subjected to a barrage of questions. His behavior does seem a bit strange if taken at face value, but his alibi was good and he had no apparent motive.

It is entirely possible that Andrew loaned John money at some time over the years, it is also possible that John loaned Andrew money. I doubt that John would be a welcome guest in the Borden house if he owed Andrew money from years ago.

[DJ]

First of all, a loan-- particularly a large loan-- is generally paid off over a length of time. In farming, that would depend on good crops, the growth and well-being of livestock, etc. It takes a while for a farm to become sustainable, much less profitable. If someone owed me money, they would be welcome in my home-- particularly if they lived more than a thousand miles away, and there might be a good chance they would try to default on it, in the long run.
Second, the bedroom was also blood-splattered, which ought to have been noticeable. On a warm day, with the windows shut, I would venture to say there would be a noticeable smell from the blood and any other bodily effluvia.
And-- Lizzie walked right by it.
At least once.
Third, I'm not going to argue Mr. Morse's state of mind re an assemblage forming around the Borden house. However, a few points:
He's trying to assemble his thoughts?
About what?
Is he that unconcerned about what he supposes or hears has happened?
Or, what he knows has happened?
If he thinks or knows someone has been murdered, he eats pears?
He was supposeed to be coming back for the noonday meal. If he still thinks there is going to be a noonday meal, why is he eating fruit in the backyard?
OK:
It's entirely possible that John Morse was a wise and wonderful businessman. Personally, if I owned a good bit of land and were concerned about being a success as a farmer, I would not leave it a thousand miles behind me, having an extended stay with friends. I would be concerned about keeping tabs on my investment, but that's just me.
Yes, he had it leased. However, that's like having a tenant halfway across the country. What if they're having no success, can't pay, and decide to bail on you? What if they're running down your home and/or outbuildings? Equipment?
OK:
Could it also be that John Morse was financially overextended? Does it seem within the realm of possibility that he might come to the assistance of his two nieces, one of whom we know for sure was close to him, who stood to gain a fortune?
If Mr. Borden did not loan him money, is it not conceivable that Morse might have a bank note on his property coming due, and not enough to pay for it?

[Allen]

It would seem from reading his profile in Rebello that John Morse was always in the habit of living or staying with someone else. Even up until his death. It could just be that he liked being in the company of friends and family instead of living on his own. He stated he was comfortable enough financially to not have to work. So he spent his time traveling and visiting instead would be my guess. There are many successful business men, even today, who travel and leave their properties in the hands of others. I don't find that odd. He evidently possessed enough business sense that even Andrew asked him for opinions in his own business matters. Not only asked, but followed Morse's advice. That doesn't sound to me like a man who can't make morgage payments, or is financially overextended, or who owed Andrew money. If anything I picture Morse as a bit of a penny pincher like Andrew. Which is why I think the two men were so fond of each other.

I have always found this item which appeared in The Fall River Weekly News on June 21,1893 really interesting.

"A horse attached to a buggy belonging to John Oliver, of New Bedford, broke from its owner, Monday and dashed through Russell's Mills and Apponegansett. Several unsuccessful attempts were made to stop its career, but not until it reached the 'Head' did anyone succeed in catching it, which was done by no less a personage than the noted John Vinnicum Morse."

[Yooper]

Based upon what do we suppose anyone owed anyone else money? Is there any evidence for the supposition?

[DJ]

Well, it's nice that Morse could catch the horse, but I'm not speaking of his behavior that day, but on the day of the murders, as outlined above. Lizzie ***may have been*** a murderess, but she left a sizable sum to the Fall River Animal Rescue, and she evidently loved her pets.
Second, what proof do we have that Mr. Morse was solvent at the time of the murders, that he owed nothing?
We're making assumptions on both sides, and I exert my theory as nothing more than that, as aforestated twice.
Mr. Morse may well have been gregarious and successful.
He may also have been gregarious and in debt.
It's not as if he's going to show up at a friend's house and say, "Hey, can I freeload off you?"
Of course, one can be prosperous and freeload, too, and in that day and time, people often "dropped in" and stayed a week or two or three, partly because distances were not so easily traversable, but largely because most people were much more hospitable. Also, in a day when reading was the chief entertainment medium, guests could be a welcome source of entertainment.
Again:
I ask only that the *possibility* of Morse being in financial straits be *considered.*
Likewise:
I do not rule out that he may have been successful. He certainly didn't throw good money after bad on hotels.

[Yooper]

So, we need an amount of money loaned to John by Andrew which was small enough for Andrew to forgive delinquency, but large enough for John to kill for?

[DJ]

It's immaterial whether John owed money to Andrew, a bank, or some other person or entity.
Dire straits are dire straits
Plus, I've never stated that Morse wielded the hatchet.
I believe he was a conduit of information regarding Mr. Borden's financial affairs, that he passed on information to his nieces, one of whom took matters into her own hands.
I believe he left Second Street that morning knowing full well that he had supplied Lizzie with enough information to commit murder.
That's *my* theory.
I respect yours, and anyone else's, including the one in "The Legend, The Truth, The Final Chapter."
Otherwise nice and respectable people have been known to kill for money.
Emotion (love) and money are two of the prime motivations for murder. Lizzie (and Emma) were certainly emotionally wrought up over their stepmother. Mr. Borden's fortune speaks for itself.
If there's some proof that Morse was indeed well off at the time of the murders, I would be inclined to think of him as more of a passive player in this scenario, but still:
Don't you think it's *possible* that Emma (and Lizzie) nevertheless pumped him for information on their Father's finances?
After all, Mr. Borden's will was still up in the air, and Morse was in touch with the progress thereof.
One a legal will was drawn up and witnessed, Lizzie and Emma would have had to live with it. If Abby predeceased her husband, her portion of his estate could then have been designated to another party, not necessarily to Lizzie and Emma. For all we know-- and Mr. Borden was buzzing about making many charitable bequests-- he could have left half or more of his fortune to charity.

[Shelley]

Yes, DJ, I can see Morse as a possibly unwitting information leak about some of Andrew's plans of a financial nature. I can envision Emma saying something like "We are so worried about our future with father getting elderly and not knowing if Abby will receive the bulk of his estate". Morse does say Andrew mentioned a will once and certain charities he wanted to support. He may not have realized the girls were pumping him for information for any ulterior motive. I rather doubt Morse knew very much about the wiles of women when they want to find something out.

Thinking about the crowds on Second Street around noon- it was lunchtime after all, and the Boston Express was just across the street and a busy place with many comings and goings. It is just possible that Morse initially was not alarmed by seeing people on the sidewalks, but the notion of something terribly wrong evolved over a few moments as he was eating those pears in the back yard. I believe if he had immediately suspected something sinister, he would NOT have picked up those pears and eaten them.

[Kat]

For DJ, who asked:

Fall River Globe, on Morse, as transcribed by Harry-

Monday, August 15, 1892, 1+


ECCENTRIC, BUT HONEST.

John V. Morse as Known By His
Far Western Neighbors.

HASTINGS, Ia., Aug 14 -- This place was for about 25 years, and in a sense is yet, the home of John V. Morse.
Miss Lizzie Borden has sent Detective Hanscom out here to investigate relative to Morse's past life.
Morse came here in 1869 from Illinois, where he had been a farmer with the exception of two or three years, during which, while a young man, he learned the butcher's trade. Morse has been a farmer ever since.
In Illinois he was a renter. During this period he saved up something less than $1000, and then came here and bought land; he owns two farms, 220 acres in all, as well improved as any farm in the county.
Morse has never married. He was always regarded by his neighbors as a very eccentric and peculiar man. He never, apparently, formed any close friendships, always maintaining a close reserve and in all his dealings was close almost to the point of penuriousness.
But he was always strictly honest.
The years he spent here were years of the strictest frugality, of self-denial that amounted almost to miserliness.
He would drive to town in an old rattle-trap lumber wagon using a pine board for a seat when he could have just as well afforded a buggy.
He would wear the same suit of clothes everywhere. It is pretty certain that the suit he is now wearing at Fall River is the same he wore when, he left here two years ago.
Only once during his long residence here did he show any inclination to take any comfort in life as he went along. One winter he electrified everybody who knew him by purchasing a nice, new buggy and a new suit of clothes. He suddenly showed a disposition to go into society and all that winter he attended parties and some other social gatherings as country life affords.
It was rumored that he was looking for a wife.
When the winter was over, he sold his buggy, laid aside his store clothes and was still a bachelor.
Those who know him best, however, agree that he was never anything more than eccentric. He was close, hardfisted, almost avaricious, but scrupulously honest. On one occasion in making a settlement with a brother of Hon. L. G. Gerung, who lives here, Morse recalled and paid for items and services which Gerung had entirely forgotten.
It is somewhat singular that in the discussion as to the possibility of Morse's connection with the Borden murder, Morse's brother-in-law, whose farm adjoins that of Morse, and who has known Morse since 1857, manifests almost no feeling. Some years ago Morse lived with the Davidsons, and the result of this was a coolness amounting almost to an estrangement which has continued up to the present.
Mrs. Davidson, who is Morse's half sister, seems to hold an opinion of Morse which is hardly as favorable as that of her husband. She says Morse was a man who when crossed would never forgive, and in fact, she describes this as a characteristic of the family and one in which she herself shares. In speaking of the arrest of Lizzie Borden she became very indignant and exclaimed that it is most preposterous to suppose that Lizzie could have murdered her parents.
Morse was never a horse trader, but he raised a good many horses on the farm, and when he had a surplus he sold them. Two years ago when he went East, he took with him a carload of horses. None of the animals were blooded, and there are people here who wondered at his taking so many ordinary stock.
But, however eccentric he may have been, he prospered and today he is considered quite well off for a farmer. Besides a farm he owns stock in the Botas Valley State Bank of Hastings. He has not been in need of money lately, for a short time ago he willingly gave one of his tenants who pays cash rent, an extension of time. And so, summing it all up, it appears that for about 25 years, John V. Morse has been a very hard working farmer. He has prospered and now seems to be taking things easy.
It is altogether likely that his moroseness, cynicism and other eccentricities were largely the result of his lonely condition in life.

[Kat]

Also, I was the one who posted that I had read Morse *say* he owed no money to Andrew. I'm looking for the source.

[Kat]

Missy, Harry has collected another story of Morse stopping a horse, of course!

[Allen]

sorry double post due to computer lag.

[Allen]

Missy, Harry has collected another story of Morse stopping a horse, of course!

I would love to read it sometime!

[Harry]

I can't locate it right now. However, I seem to remember it occurred back in Hastings, Iowa.

[Haulover]

somehow this has brought out a lot of interesting issues.

i would like to restate my point, though, which is a small one that is nevertheless curious: why didn't bridget hear him at the side door and just let him in as someone would almost certainly normally do?

now, i know i suggested that this could implicate bridget. on the other hand, even if she did hear him at the side door, it could be innocuous. maybe she just did not want to go let him in, maybe at that moment she assumed abby would let him in (wherever she was), and when finally he is trying to get in at the front she realizes she will have to go let him in the house. and maybe she preferred not to try to explain that.

this quote below from kat illustrates my point. this is what i suddenly thought, i don't know why. i've only been in the house once, but it seems to me there would be no trouble hearing a visitor at the screen door or even hearing someone walk up the few steps or even hearing them walk under the dining room windows approaching it.

***When Harry and I were at the House awaiting our Kash to come over (others had left already to go to Stef's lecture) we distinctly heard Kash tapping at the side door while we were in the parlour. I knew it was she and called out come-in and she heard that too. I've also heard the clunking of footsteps coming up the outside side stairs nearly every time someone came up no matter where I was on the first floor. ***

if it is possible to determine that bridget (if she is in sitting room) would have heard andrew at the screen, then the interesting question is WHY she did not go let him in. which may or may not mean much.

but then there is another possibility that crossed my mind in relation to this. if bridget never heard andrew at the side door because andrew never made a sound there -- would there be an obvious reason for that? i can think of one thing: if andrew actually found the inner door shut as well as the screen latched -- that would have driven him immediately to the front door. if this is the case, then that does implicate bridget because i don't see how she could avoid knowing how the side door was. i don't believe bridget ever said that anything but the screen was ever shut or latched.

this is speculation of course -- about things not said.

[Allen]

Maybe Andrew didn't actually go to the side door first. Maybe he went into the backyard to do any number of things. Maybe even inspecting the job Bridget did on the windows. Or relocking the barn door after Bridget had finished her work there. The Borden's were sticklers for the doors being kept locked. There had allegedly been a break in of the barn which I'd assume would have Andrew concerned with keeping it locked. Mrs. Kelley doesn't say she saw him coming specifically from the side door, but from around the side of the house. She was walking in front of the house near the front gate, and passed him as he walked to the front door. Then she states he stooped down as though trying to fit a key into the lock on the front door. We can suppose he tried the side door first, but we can't know for sure.

[Harry]

That's a good point, Missy. Since he was coming from Spring Street he would have to pass the front door to get around to the side door. Why wouldn't he have tried the front door then? Maybe he did want to check something in the yard or barn.

Then, perhaps he did try the front door first. His key not being able to open it he went around to the side door. Getting no answer there he returns to the front to try again. This time Bridget hears him.

[Shelley]

But didn't they keep the barn unlocked during the day because Abby used the Privy out there? I thought the reason Andrew killed the pigeons was because kids got up the hayloft and messed about with the birds during the day. Yes, I would think that if he had gone to the side or back yard, he would have at least tried the side door to get in. I would have
I always question things which I, or the average person I should say, would do- allowing in some cases for the odd duck or the eccentric character. If it is a behavior way off from the norm you have to question if the story is a lie or the teller trying to cover something, although sometimes coincidences must be allowed. I love the line from Sherlock Homes: "When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. "

[DJ]

Kat,
Many thanks for digging up the info on Morse!!! To have taken his investment of $1,000 in land and turned it into $20,000-plus, is quite a feat. Well, he would have had to have been frugal, or else come into some more money--
I find two more things about the article interesting:
First, the "estrangement," which isn't expounded upon.
Second, the use of the word "eccentric," with emphasis on his enigmatic, "closed-off" personality.
I still find his actions on the morning of the murder odd, even suspicious, as if he knew something could have well been going down in his absence that morning.
Also, I still believe he was a conduit of information re Mr. Borden's financial dealings, at least to Emma, if not to Lizzie as well. At the very least, I believe Emma pumped him for information about the progress of her Father's drawing up a will. I also think Lizzie and Morse communicated during that fateful visit, but denied it, because the prosecution could have jumped all over the matter.
It's interesting to know Morse was solvent at the time of the murders, but it's quite a feat to take a thousand-dollar investment in a farm (which would have made him "land poor") and turn it into more than 20,000-plus dollars.
Morse may not have owed money, but he still could have taken a couple of grand in loving gratitude from a grateful niece, or nieces.
A final thought: Someone who lives as frugally as he apparently did, according to the article, has *a great awareness of, and interest in, money.*
Finally and at last, all money matters aside, the article paints him as somewhat of a *cipher.*

[DJ]

Sorry to double-post, too, but I forgot to thank Harry for his research, as well.
It's great to be informed!
And, again,
I'm intrigued by the *new* questions the article raises, regarding
"the estrangement" and Morse's personality. Also, that it paints him as exeedingly frugal.
Also, in thinking:
How do you really know for sure how much money someone has, unless they show you their bank balance?
Morse did not live in high style. He certainly bore none of the trappings of success.
Everyone just believes he is-- when it comes right down to it, what's the real proof here? Yes, he goes out of his way to repay a debt, and everyone seems to be well aware of that particular incident, as if he wants it well known.
I'll accept that he's solvent. That he didn't owe money.
However, just how *successful* he was? That's still a cloudy issue, until we come to his will.

[andrea]

Hello everyone... I've been away from the forum for some time, but recently started visiting again.

Of course, this is all conjecture, but...It occurred to me that Andrew may have headed right back to the barn when he returned to add the broken lock he picked up that morning to the box (or basket upstairs) of iron, lead, etc. This would explain his passing the front door the first time and Mrs. Kelly seeing him come around the from the side of the house. Perhaps being a bit early coming home, he didn't expect the ladies to be around the kitchen area and simply returned to the front door after his barn errand thinking he could use his key to get in.

[Tina-Kate]

Cool. That's very interesting Andrea. A VERY good & plausible explanation for what happened to that thing! Also in regard to his coming around the house from that direction & going to the front door. All fits in very nicely!

[twinsrwe]

I agree with Tina-Kate - you have a great explanation, Andrea. It all makes sense.

[Kat]

Also, I was the one who posted that I had read Morse *say* he owed no money to Andrew. I'm looking for the source.

I'm catching up here. Finally found the reference. It was not filed properly by me, after prior research.

It is Fall River Evening News, Friday, August 5, 1892:

Mr. Morse is a gentleman 59 years of age and of comfortable fortune. He is the uncle of the Misses Borden, his deceased sister being their mother. "I have never borrowed a dollar of Andrew Borden in my life," he said this morning, "and no financial differences ever existed between us. Abraham Borden's will left me no property, and my father's will left none to Andrew Borden, the murdered man." A letter from a cashier in an Iowa bank of recent date, shows a handsome balance to Mr. Morse's credit. Mr. Morse wears a suit of light grey clothes, all he has with him since he has been in the city. There is not a spot apparent on them. "Look at me," he said, "as a man of common sense, and say if I could have committed such horrible butchery and present the appearance I do." This last remark shows keenly the the unhappy man feels the injustice that hasty suspicion has done him."
---The headline on the page is called "Still A Mystery."

[DJ]

Kat,
That's the kind of proof I was hoping for! It eliminates debt as a motive for his involvement.
Still, his actions that morning remain suspicious to me-- how he reacts upon his return. I still believe he was a conduit of information to Emma and Lizzie, probably at their pressing.
Also, the question(s) raised by that article remain as well, regarding his interpersonal relationships. He didn't get along with everybody. The article pretty well paints him as a strange man.
* * *
To me, he seems to be an "overcompensator"-- rescuing the horse, wanting to make sure everyone knew he paid back the debt in Iowa-- very public displays to define "good character."
Take, too, the statement he makes in your latest post, about his appearance. How can he possibly be connected, he says.
***The quote is remarkable to me. He's saying, how can he possibly be the murderer when he looks a certain way. That's odd.***
Another thing that bothers me about the fateful morning is that he's off to visit a relative he hasn't seen in years. I'm writing this w/o reviewing the testimony, but I think it's seven years. Also, when he arrives, he never even sees this person, as I recall.
It seems like a way-out excuse to be out of the house that morning.
Here's my take: He passed on information about the progress of the will, either directly to Lizzie, or to Lizzie via Emma. Lizzie says something on the order of: "I will not let that happen. I will kill them both first."
Uncle John looks the other way. To me, there is no surprise about him that morning, until he enters the house and begins to *overcompensate* with a statement along the lines of: "My God, how could God have let this happen to this wonderful man?" It's in the testimony-- I believe from a constable.
***He was expected for dinner. If he thinks there's nothing amiss in the household upon his return, why is he eating those pears?***
I also think he underplays the size of the crowd at the front, upon his return, according to the constables' statements, at least one of whom is already in the house when Morse enters.

PS: A sidebar about farming-- a couple of "bad weather" years could cause a serious reversal in fortune: drought, late-freeze, hail, etc.
If there're livestock-- they must be tended, they're subject to disease, predators, etc.
Also, it's labor intensive. Even moreso back then. It would require a healthy bank balance.
Also, the land is taxed.
I've known several farmers who have lost it all, including one who cleared three million in one year, but, several "bad" years later, lost all his family property to the bank. He was more than 70 years old at the time.
A farmer can always use more money. He may have been rewarded for any information he passed along. After all, he was Emma's "favorite uncle."

[Yooper]

The quotes support an awareness by John Morse of suspicions possibly being focused on him. His first awareness of this may have come as soon as his arrival for lunch the day of the murders. Again, he was a single man. His first concern may have been for himself. If he figured he had to account for his movements that morning, maybe he needed a few minutes to collect his thoughts.

[Kat]

That's a good point Harry about Andrew coming from Spring Street, south, only to pass the front door- go around the north side of the house, only to come back to the front door coming from the north. And then we try to figure out why.

Earlier I had remarked that the only witness who claims this is one person, Mrs. Dr. Kelly. My speculation was what if she was wrong in her assessment of what she saw- or thought she saw?
Then things are more simple. It's only complicated because of Mrs. Dr. Kelly.
Maybe Andrew only stepped toward the parlour first after entering his property by the front gate. Maybe he heard voices there and was listening. Then just proceeded to the the south a few feet to the front door, never having gone around the side of the house at all?

(BTW: I am using the spelling of Mrs. Dr. Kelly from The Knowlton Papers Glossary )

[Kat]

Morse leased his farm out while he was gone. He traveled a lot. I think it's rather prudent of him to do that- a renter takes care of the farm and the costs, and when Morse returns from his ramblings he lives with them (in his own home)! Ta Da! Pretty savvy.

His 1/2 sister Arabella says she is like Morse- she does not forget a slight. She did not like Morse much but I think she thought she and he were similar in a way. He used to live with his 1/2 brother Alvarado and John Davidson, in Iowa, before Arabella married Davidson (1870-71). It seems Alvarado then moved and the remaining 3 lived together 9 years! Morse only left her $10 in his will. Anything could have happened between the 1/2 siblings during that time.
(Some of this comes from what I call "The Morse Issue" of The Hatchet, research by our Joe [aka Glen Carlson.], June/July 2004).

[Allen]

Take, too, the statement he makes in your latest post, about his appearance. How can he possibly be connected, he says.
***The quote is remarkable to me. He's saying, how can he possibly be the murderer when he looks a certain way. That's odd.***

I thought his meaning was was clear, and rather well made. He arrived with nothing but the clothes on his back, and was still wearing them after the murders until who knows when. He wasn't blood splattered. So how could he have committed the two axe murders and not have any sign of it in his appearance? I think that is the issue he was trying to address.

"Mr. Morse wears a suit of light grey clothes, all he has with him since he has been in the city. There is not a spot apparent on them. "Look at me," he said, "as a man of common sense, and say if I could have committed such horrible butchery and present the appearance I do." This last remark shows keenly the the unhappy man feels the injustice that hasty suspicion has done him."

[Allen]

Uncle John looks the other way. To me, there is no surprise about him that morning, until he enters the house and begins to *overcompensate* with a statement along the lines of: "My God, how could God have let this happen to this wonderful man?" It's in the testimony-- I believe from a constable.

Where can this quote be found? I haven't been able to locate it.

[Allen]

Earlier I had remarked that the only witness who claims this is one person, Mrs. Dr. Kelly. My speculation was what if she was wrong in her assessment of what she saw- or thought she saw?
Then things are more simple. It's only complicated because of Mrs. Dr. Kelly.
Maybe Andrew only stepped toward the parlour first after entering his property by the front gate. Maybe he heard voices there and was listening. Then just proceeded to the the south a few feet to the front door, never having gone around the side of the house at all?

(BTW: I am using the spelling of Mrs. Dr. Kelly from The Knowlton Papers Glossary )

Maybe we should look at Mrs. Kelly's testimony about what she saw.



The Witness Statements page 10, notes of Doherty and Harrington:

Mrs. Dr. Kelly. “Left the house to go to the dentist’s; looked at the clock just before going out, 10.35. Saw Mr. Borden coming around the north west corner of the house, going towards the front door, saw him put a key in the door. He had a small package in his hand. From the way was coming, I think he was at the side door first.” The time when Mrs. Kelly left the house is also fixed by the work girl at 10.35.


Trial testimoney Of Mrs. Caroline Kelly page 213:

Q. Did you know Mr. Borden?
A. Yes.

Q. Knew him to speak to as well as by sight? Did you see him that morning?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Won't you describe where he was when you first saw him?
A. He was on the inside of his yard coming round the side of the house.

Q. From what direction?
A. From the back of the house, east, I think.

Q. Where did he go then?
A. To the front door.

Q. In going from the yard to the front door did he go out on the sidewalk, or did he go inside the fence?
A. Inside the fence.

Q. What did you see him do at the front door?
A. He stooped down as thought putting a key in the door, that is all.

Q. Did you see whether he had anything in his hand?
A. A little white parcel, I think.

Q. Did you speak to him?
A. No.

Q. Or he to you?
A. No.

Page 214:

Q. About where were you when you saw Mr. Borden passing around from from the side of the house to the front door?
A. I was near his gate.

Q. Which gate do you refer to?
A. The front gate leading to the front door.

Q. But then you could almost put your hand on him, could you?
A. Well, he was inside the fence.

Q. You were on one side of the fence and he on the other?
A. Yes.

Page 218:

Q. (By Mr. Moody.) Perhaps this photograph may assist you in showing just where you were and just where Mr. Borden was when you first saw him?
A. That is his front gate, you know, and I was above that.

Q. And where was he?
A. I saw him coming around the corner. I must have been --that is my house, you know-- I must have been -- he would be at the side of this gate when I saw him come around this corner.

Q. Where were you when he was at the door?
A. I was about opposite his gate as near as I remember.

(Locations on the photograph pointed out to the jury.)

RE-CROSS

Q. ( By Mr. Robinson.) Which gate do you say now? Was it their front gate or the side gate?
A. Their front door.

Q. Opposite the front door?
A. When I saw him at the door, I was opposite his gate, as near as I can remember.

Q. (By Mr. Moody.) Of course, at the time his back was turned towards you?
A. Yes. He was stooping.

Page 219

Q. ( By Mr. Robinson.) Let us see a moment. As he came around the corner of the house his back wasn't towards you?
A. Oh, no, but as I passed his front gate he was facing me.

Q. You met right there just as he was turning up to go to the front door?
A. Yes.

[DJ]

"Andrew at the Side Door" is such a good topic, someone please start a new topic on John V. Morse, if so desired. I take the blame for the diversion.
First, while searching for the source of that quote, Allen, I went back to the trial testimony, the inquest testimony, and the police statements.
I'll find it, but first--
1) Morse testifies at the trial that, returning, he went past the side door to the pear tree. He testifies that he sees *no one* outside the house, which leads one to wonder:
A) What is he gathering his thoughts about? He has no inkling of the murders, by his own testimony.
B) What about the noonday meal? He testifies he passes by the door that leads into the kitchen-- why doesn't he enter?
C) He also testifies there are "two or three" policemen in the house by the time he arrives.

2) His destination that morning is the Emerys', to see a niece and nephew he has never seen. He is there from about 9:30 to about 11:30, as well as Mrs. Emery can place it.
A) He never sees the niece or nephew.
B) Mrs. Emery says she hasn't seen Morse "for several years."
C) Curiously, he leaves the impression with Mrs. Emery that he is headed directly from there to New Bedford. No mention is made of dinner at the Bordens'. Mrs. Emery even invites him to dinner.

3) The following is a quote from F.L. Edson, constable, taken Friday, August 26, 1892:
"J.V. Morse testified that one ax and three hatchets were taken from the house, put in a light colored bag of coarse material, and carried away. This is false."

[Curryong]

I thought there were some good points brought up by Harry, Kat and Allen in this early thread we could take a look at, and a photo!

[twinsrwe]

I agree, Curryong. This thread is very informative. BTW: The inflation calculator link that Harry provided us with, has been a very useful tool for me; I have a short cut of it on my desktop.

[Curryong]

Yes, inflation indeed, twins, though, in general it is a bit difficult to compare say household spending in Victorian days with our own. For one thing, except for basic items of food we don't purchase the same things. People in the 1890's wouldn't be buying toilet rolls or electric light globes for example, just as we don't buy huge amounts of candles or paraffin oil. Even drinks are different, except for coffee and tea. I think people living in the 19th century would be very surprised at the amount of sodas consumed today.

Incidentally, we were flying back to Australia once from the US via QANTAS, the Australian airline, and an American lady seated behind us said to the steward "I'd like a soda" and he replied "No, you wouldn't!" He was right. In Australia if you ask for soda you get a soda water! Lemonade here is not flat but fizzy unless you specifically ask for an old fashioned type lemon squash. Icecream on a stick is an 'icy pole' and candies of all sorts are called lollies here.

[debbiediablo]

I tend to say soda but generally it's a term used east of the Mississippi River; west of the river people tend to say 'pop'...and I'd be very, very upset if my lemonade was served fizzy!!

What Andrew brought home in a white envelope/package has always intrigued me, and where did the lock go? Andrea's idea is interesting. But if he took the lock to the barn then what's in the white package, and how did he come by the package in the first place? Shelley quoted Sherlock Holmes above; sometimes I think none of this is important, and other times I think of Holmes saying, "It has long been an axiom of mine that the little things are infinitely the most important."

[Curryong]

I've got a sort of memory that they found the broken lock in Andrew's pocket, unless I'm dreaming it. IMO the white package could be several things. He was going to attend a bank meeting but decided to go home as he was not feeling well. Maybe, when he called at the bank, they handed him some papers referring to some matters that were going to be discussed so he would be up with what was going on. Bridget testified that when he was in the sitting room he was looking at papers near the window. I think that shows how dim the rooms were, by the way. He then supposedly deposited these in the safe upstairs. (Incidentally, the police couldn't get the safe open and had to call in someone from out of town to fix it!)

I believe Mrs Dr Kelley testified that it was a small package she saw, which eliminates the possibility that Andrew had found a print on his travels and brought it home. Bridget said it looked like papers or a book. The prosaic explanation is that it was some sort of journal or newspaper (which were smaller and wider publications than they are today) which Andrew had collected from the post office.

Of course there's always the possibility that this package contained the draft of a will (though Jennings denied that Andrew had done so) or documents about a transfer of family property. If it did no trace of any 'smoking gun' of that sort was ever found either inside the safe or outside.

[debbiediablo]

If this were the case, and it quite remotely could be, then I suspect the smoking gun ended up inside the smoking stove....

[twinsrwe]

Correct me if am wrong, but weren't there ashes found in the stove, which were in the shape of a cylinder? Could those ashes have been papers, such as a will or documents regarding a transfer of family property, rolled up and thrown in the stove?

[debbiediablo]

That's how I remember it...and wasn't Bowen there stuffing it in?

[Curryong]

Our dress expert, Officer Harrington, testified that he was in the kitchen after he had arrived at No 92 and saw the good doctor consigning scraps of paper to the rather low heat of the stove. He saw one scrap that had the name 'Emma' on it in pencil. (This was after Bowen sent the telegram to Emma.)

Bowen said the scraps weren't important, they were to do with his daughter, who'd been away. (Remember, in support of this, Mrs Bowen had been looking out of her window for her daughter virtually all morning.) Harrington must have stared at Dr Bowen suspiciously. Harrington also testified that he looked in the stove and in the glowing pink coals (it had died down) he saw a cylindrical shape, about a foot long, had been burned. There was nothing but the shape left.

Lizzie testified at the inquest that during the time she was waiting for her flats to heat up she had put a piece of wood to burn in the stove and so the shape must have been that. Officer Harrington said, in description of what he saw, 'as if of papers' as in rolled up papers. To be fair though, he didn't like Lizzie from the first because of her demeanour and manner and lack of emotion, and seems to have been suspicious of a lot of what he found in that house.

[twinsrwe]

Thank you, Curryong! This answers both mine and Debbie's questions.

[debbiediablo]

This incident plus evasive testimony plus somewhat odd behavior on the afternoon of the murders makes Bowen look more suspicious to me than Morse. A cylinder nearly a foot long is no small piece of paper which gives rise to visions of wills or deeds or other forms of legal document. Where did this come from? What is the urgency to burn it in the middle of a double murder discovery? Harrington is the most observant officer at the scene; we will see this later in his testimony.... His attention to detail (the change in clothing and the burning paper in the stove) are the instincts of a good investigator. The flipside is the Borden stove is heating up the kitchen on a hot summer afternoon (yes, I know...in the 80s) and maybe the Bowen stove is not, so the good doctor takes advantage of the opportunity.

[Curryong]

Bowen's telegram to Emma was stamped 11:32am and he was back at the Borden house by 11:40am. Harrington arrived at the Bordens at about 12:15-12:20 pm. A lot of people on the forum over the years have felt that there was something suspicious in the scraps of paper burned. I don't, and anyway Bowen waited for nearly an hour to get rid of them in the stove. There's no indication that Bowen burned the cylinder though. Lizzie may have quickly done it after Andrew was killed, and due to the slowness of the stove at the time it took an hour or more to burn. She could have been telling the truth and it could have been wood and Harrington was over-suspicious!

[debbiediablo]

Our house is all electric with a decorative wood stove in the basement and a fireplace upstairs for supplemental heat. I've burned wood all my adult life. It's difficult to mistake wood for paper, especially for someone as observant at Harrington. I'm inclined to trust his observations and instincts; Officer Harrington was paying attention that day. I wonder if this was the item Andrew brought home in the white envelope. If it were an 8x14 scroll, I can see it being mistaken for both 6 inches wide and when burned for 12 inches sticking up among the ashes. Perhaps Andrew was reading his Will, not a magazine, that morning.

[Curryong]

Well, I'll trust your judgement then, as I've never had a wood stove. Plus, Bridget did say Andrew was reading 'papers' near the window, which doesn't sound like a newspaper or a magazine. It was either something like minutes of that meeting he was supposed to go to, or...? I wonder whether Abby let the cat out of the bag that Thursday morning, or something John Morse said on the Wednesday afternoon set Lizzie off? If Uncle John had a voice like Foghorn Leghorn Lizzie, lying in bed, couldn't have helped hearing any discussion.

Incidentally, while I was looking something else up the other day, I read a very interesting little snippet I'd forgotten. Before the trial Knowlton apparently tried to persuade Jennings to consider the possibility that Lizzie was not sane when she committed the murders and have her examined by medicos. Jennings, however, wouldn't agree to have Lizzie examined by any doctors, but he did say that they, presumably Lizzie's team, plus Emma, were examining all possibilities themselves.

[debbiediablo]

I doubt that it was minutes...1892 didn't have the technology to provide minutes that quickly but it could've been almost any other kind of paper...although a scrolled document is unique. Like I said before: deeds and Wills come in scrolls.

[Curryong]

Stupid, stupid me. Wrong word! Some sort of an agenda, a schedule of what was to be discussed at that meeting, was what I meant.

You are correct. Deeds and wills come in scrolls. If it was a will though, or a draft of one, it's odd that Jennings categorically denied that Andrew had spoken to him about making a will at all. If it was a deed then surely Jennings would have felt he had to speak up, even at Lizzie's expense, when enquiries were made after the murder. Anyway, Andrew didn't go to Jennings' office that day.

It might have been a deed prepared by an out of town lawyer and left for Andrew at the Post Office. We know he went to the Post Office that day.

[irina]

I think of legal papers coming in packets. Scroll shapes I think pre-date Lizzie's day. I have considered that Lizzie may have ripped some pages from a magazine or journal that she was reading, rolled it like a cylinder and put it on top of the coals. I have seen people do elaborate things with paper to start fires. I just crunch up some newspaper and light it. Remember the firebox in a kitchen range wasn't large like a wood stove or fireplace. There may have been an advantage in using a cylindrical shape. I have had the idea the journal and magazine she was browsing through that morning were near the stove with intent to use them to start the fire.

I also doubt that if Andrew had a will or other important papers like that, that he would read them and keep them with him while he laid down for a nap. Seems to me he would have taken them upstairs.

I do wish we had some idea what it meant that Abby said "they" had taken back her key. I see little indications there was fear in the family from an outside source. I wonder if Abby had an enemy outside the household, but the evidence is so slim. My point is if there was fear of someone misusing Abby's key, might the family have triple locked the front door to prevent the key giving entrance to someone who shouldn't have it?