Lifetime Movie

[twinsrwe]

Wordweaver and Richard, welcome back! It is good to hear from you guys again!!!

[twinsrwe]

First of all, I want to wish you a Happy Birthday, NancyDrew! I hope you had a good one.

… The director of this movie was born in Massachusetts. He is my age; why did he let so much of his own state's history be made into a cheap farce? …

At first I thought you were kidding about Nick Gomez being born in Massachusetts, but sure enough he was born in Somerville, Massachusetts, USA. As for why he let so much of his state’s history be made into a cheap farce, well, I guess we will never know! Personally, I’d be ashamed to have my name connected to this movie in any way shape or form.

… Does anyone know if anyone from the production team contacted LeeAnn or ANYONE from our neck of the woods or website to verify facts? …

Apparently not!

However, I did find the following interesting comment made by Meredith Putvin at this web site: http://www.kansascity.com/2014/01/24/47 ... ls-it.html

This is a farce that did no actual research. The creators did no research at the Lizzie Borden Museum in Fall River. In fact they only contacted the museum to borrow a couch. (Request denied). The Lizzie Borden Museum is the *actual* house where the murders took place. There is a lot of history here in Fall River and these hacks ignored it.

[Curryong]

Well, in far off Aus I'm now watching it, and it is all everyone said it was and more!!

[PossumPie]

There is something more important than the truth, to Hollywood - the almighty dollar...

[Curryong]

Of course, I suppose in today's economic climate, production companies target an audience and if teenage slasher movies is what brings in the revenue in that group, that's the way to go. Very sad when we know that there is an interesting and intriguing true story that will probably never be told.

[Darrowfan]

Very sound analysis, Richard. Folks like me, in their mid-50s, often forget that most mass media is geared toward the young. (I recall my own parents lamenting that very fact more than 30 years ago, when my friends and I were attending midnight showings of The Rocky Horror Picture Show.)

Thanks for the reminder that we older people have to move over and make room for the young, as annoying as that can be to us. :)

[PossumPie]

Very sound analysis, Richard. Folks like me, in their mid-50s, often forget that most mass media is geared toward the young. (I recall my own parents lamenting that very fact more than 30 years ago, when my friends and I were attending midnight showings of The Rocky Horror Picture Show.)

Thanks for the reminder that we older people have to move over and make room for the young, as annoying as that can be to us. :)

Best observation I've seen today!

[Darrowfan]

Very sound analysis, Richard. Folks like me, in their mid-50s, often forget that most mass media is geared toward the young. (I recall my own parents lamenting that very fact more than 30 years ago, when my friends and I were attending midnight showings of The Rocky Horror Picture Show.)

Thanks for the reminder that we older people have to move over and make room for the young, as annoying as that can be to us. :)

Best observation I've seen today!

Thanks, Possum. I remember something my late father told me shortly after I returned home from the Army at age 20. One night, after I had been out drinking and partying, and was hung over the next morning, my dad chuckled and said, "Well, enjoy your youth, son. You'll find it wears out in one hell of a hurry." Truer words were never spoken.

[twinsrwe]

Very sound analysis, Richard. Folks like me, in their mid-50s, often forget that most mass media is geared toward the young. (I recall my own parents lamenting that very fact more than 30 years ago, when my friends and I were attending midnight showings of The Rocky Horror Picture Show.)

Thanks for the reminder that we older people have to move over and make room for the young, as annoying as that can be to us. :)

Well, I agree that we need to make room for the young. However, it’s very unfortunate that the young people of today are being given a lot more fictional information than non-fictional information, when it comes to true crimes such as the Borden Murder Case. I just find this very sad.

BTW, Richard, thank you for the information you posted. It is very helpful.

[twinsrwe]

I stated in a previous post, that I couldn’t bring myself to finish watching this movie, but the next day I decided to give it another try. Well, it really is a bad movie to sit through, however, I made it a bit more ‘fun’ by picking out the parts that I found wrong. In addition to the things that have already been mentioned in this thread, here are some more things that I learned:

Emma and Lizzie joined Abby and Andrew for a family dinner after church. (This must have been one of those ‘rare’ occasions that Lizzie spoke about).

Lizzie feeding the chickens. (I didn’t know the Bordens had chickens! I thought they had a horse at one point in time, but chickens???).

Lizzie cleaning out the chicken coop. (Somehow, I just can’t see Lizzie doing this ‘kind’ of work. Wouldn’t this kind of work, have been beneath her?).

Lizzie shedding tears while being questioned shortly after Andrews body is discovered. (Lizzie was so overcome by emotion, that tears were running down her face? And here I thought she was the “Sphinx Of Coldness"!!!).

Lizzie went to the barn to look for fishing tackle. (Jeez, and here I thought she had gone to the barn to look for iron to fix a screen. Opps, no wait, she was looking for tin. No, no, no, she was looking for lead to make sinkers.)

The dress Lizzie wore the day of the murders was stained with stew. (Really? And here I thought she had a very, very small blood stain at the bottom of her shirt from her menstrual period.)

Lizzie stayed inside the house after sending Bridget to find Dr. Bowen, because she didn’t want to look like a killer and run. (Well, I didn’t know this before. Does this mean Bridget was the killer, because she RAN across the street to Dr. Bowen’s house and also to Alice Russell’s house?)

Bridget is still outside washing windows when Andrew is killed. (Jeez, and here I thought she had gone upstairs to take a nap!)

Emma and Lizzie never left 92 second street. (Hmmm, guess I was wrong again! I thought they had bought a house on the hill, which was named Maplecroft.)

Lizzie tells Emma how she killed Abby and Andrew, then Emma leaves Lizzie and 92 second street. (Well, now we know why Emma left!)

[NancyDrew]

They referenced Maplecroft, but got it backwards. Lizzie says to Emma, right after the funeral "I guess we should move. Maplecroft is for sale."

That really burned me. Lizzie's audacity in naming her own house, even engraving it in the steps, is a crucial part to understanding her psychology. And they just ignored it.

[Darrowfan]

They referenced Maplecroft, but got it backwards. Lizzie says to Emma, right after the funeral "I guess we should move. Maplecroft is for sale."

That really burned me. Lizzie's audacity in naming her own house, even engraving it in the steps, is a crucial part to understanding her psychology. And they just ignored it.

twins and Nancy, you both point out major problems with the accuracy of the film. I think the movie was made to "entertain" youthful audiences, not to inform them. That's truly a shame. On the other hand, maybe some young people saw the film, became interested in the case, and decided to do some research on their own. You never know.

[Aamartin]

I have used the opportunity of the film to post links to this forum on places like IMDB, etc -- hopefully we can gain some new members and they can get some good information!

[FactFinder]

Very sound analysis, Richard. Folks like me, in their mid-50s, often forget that most mass media is geared toward the young. (I recall my own parents lamenting that very fact more than 30 years ago, when my friends and I were attending midnight showings of The Rocky Horror Picture Show.)

Thanks for the reminder that we older people have to move over and make room for the young, as annoying as that can be to us. :)

Well, I agree that we need to make room for the young. However, it’s very unfortunate that the young people of today are being given a lot more fictional information than non-fictional information, when it comes to true crimes such as the Borden Murder Case. I just find this very sad.

BTW, Richard, thank you for the information you posted. It is very helpful.

I agree Twinsrwe. In making room for the young does that mean the truth gets pushed to the side? When and where will they ever make an effort to learn the truth? If you ask me there are enough plot twists in the real murder that it would have made a great picture for the old and the young.

[FactFinder]

I have used the opportunity of the film to post links to this forum on places like IMDB, etc -- hopefully we can gain some new members and they can get some good information!

Good thinking Aamartin.

[Darrowfan]

On the subject of inaccuracies in the film, I found this one particularly bizarre. When Andrew arrives home, and Maggie lets him in, she says something like, "Couldn't you get in?" and Andrew sarcastically replies, "Yes, but I just enjoy knocking on my own door for no reason." As I recall Maggie's actual testimony, she was asked whether or not she and Andrew exchanged any words when she let him in, and she replied that they had not. I guess the film makers just wanted to make Andrew seem like an obnoxious, sarcastic jerk.

Also, I think the film depicts Andrew loudly banging on the door to get Maggie's attention, when in fact, she simply heard him rattling the knob on the door. Am I right about this?

[Mara]

Right on all counts, Darrowfan. This movie took artistic license with so many things that, had they been more accurate, would have made it a cooler film. But then, I'm not 19.

And by the way, I'm having a very hard time accepting that older people have to roll over and play dead when it comes to whatever young people want. What a flat, see-through, lifeless world it is that has no historical or cultural depth to it. If nothing else, it leaves young people open to manipulation and even fraud. I think it is every generation's duty to keep alive for the next one what they believe to be the finest gifts of their past, and not just by passing along the raw omissions and biases of our own lives; sometimes we need to broaden our own scope, too. The last thing we should do is shut down the intergenerational discussion and say, "Okay, 2014, good luck."

[Darrowfan]

Right on all counts, Darrowfan. This movie took artistic license with so many things that, had they been more accurate, would have made it a cooler film. But then, I'm not 19.

And by the way, I'm having a very hard time accepting that older people have to roll over and play dead when it comes to whatever young people want. What a flat, see-through, lifeless world it is that has no historical or cultural depth to it. If nothing else, it leaves young people open to manipulation and even fraud. I think it is every generation's duty to keep alive for the next one what they believe to be the finest gifts of their past, and not just by passing along the raw omissions and biases of our own lives; sometimes we need to broaden our own scope, too. The last thing we should do is shut down the intergenerational discussion and say, "Okay, 2014, good luck."

Well said, Mara. Young people tend to indulge themselves in superficiality (I know I did), but eventually we start to look for something deeper. To use the Borden case as an example, young folks probably do tend to see it as just another "hack and stab" incident, whereas those of us who are older start looking for more answers as to how and why.

[Mara]

Lizzie feeding the chickens. (I didn’t know the Bordens had chickens! I thought they had a horse at one point in time, but chickens???).

Lizzie cleaning out the chicken coop. (Somehow, I just can’t see Lizzie doing this ‘kind’ of work. Wouldn’t this kind of work, have been beneath her?).

I thought they were intended to be pigeons -- a reference to an incident Lizzie mentioned at the inquest, in which Andrew removed the heads of some pigeons int he barn. It has been surmised that Lizzie (who we know was later fond of animals, if not of one certain noisy bird) may have kept pigeons as pets and that Andrew callously killed them. Whether this was done with a hatchet or by twisting the heads off, Lizzie didn't say. All she reported was having seen the heads off. Ugh.

What puzzled me about the business about the pidgins in the movie was that it seemed they had Lizzie dreaming that she herself had gone into the cage and hacked them up. Then in a later scene, we see her raking out some bloody straw from the cage, with only a modest amount of disgust. I didn't get that, and I am not going to re-watch the movie to check myself! Ugh again :(

[Mara]

Duplicate post. Sorry.

[LisaAnn]

Well I can't really say much more that hasn't already been said. I was really disappointed in this movie. One thing I did get a giggle out of was the fact my husband even mentioned the fact Lizzie was not wearing a hat to court. My eye for detail must be wearing off.

[Catbooks]

I wonder if the music decision came from the mind of some youngster who thought the rock music in the latest Great Gatsby movie was swell. Or who saw "Moulin Rouge" as a kid and never got over it. (I think I must be the only person on earth who couldn't stand that thing.) Anyway, it was an awful decision.

If I'd been in charge, I would have suggested adapting some early Charles Ives songs; the bitonality of some of his work from that period would have been just creepy enough without losing the period. And what about some snippets of Gould's music from the Fall River Legend ballet? That's modern, but at least it's modern with a raison d'être.

that's exactly what i thought - someone likes baz luhrmann's style and thought, hey, let's do that with the lizzie movie! it was so god-awful. well the whole thing was, but the music, UGH. so inappropriate and most of all intrusive.

btw, i disliked moulin rouge so much, i could only watch the first 20 minutes, so there are at least two of us

the only thing i liked about it was it brought me back to this site and now i'm finally joining in on the discussions.

[NancyDrew]

I didn't like Moulin Rouge either, but my daughter absolutely loved it.

One of my close friends recorded the new Lizzie movie, and then texted me that she "really liked it...cutting edge." (no pun intended.) Then she started telling me all about the case, and how OBVIOUS it was that Lizzie did it, citing the fact that after she was ordered to hand over the dress she wore when she discovered her father's body, she went right home and burned it up. ARRGGGGGH!!!! (Yes, she burned a dress, and yes, she was asked to hand one over for examination, but the timeline in the movie was wrong, wrong, wrong.)

Furthermore, she commented: "I can see why Lizzie wanted money; she was quite the party-girl, huh?" This made me NUTS. If I had to pick the worst scene in this already-awful tv flick, it was the party scene.

1. There was no party the night before the murders.
2. Lizzie would NEVER have worn a low-cut gown with her breasts shoved up to produce such cleavage. Nor would she have attended a social gathering in the evening unchaperoned.
3. She didn't drink alcohol. Not only did SHE not drink, she didn't think anyone ELSE should either, being on the board of the Women's Christian Temperance Union.
4. The party featured heavy metal music, and what sounded like southern rock. Pure nonsense and totally inappropriate for 1892.
5. The party features Lizzie bidding a friendly greeting to someone named "Nance." In truth, Lisbeth formed a friendship with an actress named Nance, AFTER she was acquitted, and the only parties they attended were ones thrown by Lizzie herself, at Maplecroft.
6. The party shows Lizzie sitting down and making clever small talk with other guests (one of them asking her "aren't you a Sunday school teacher?" and Lizzie replying coyly "Only on Sundays." ) In truth, Lizzie wasn't a social butterfly, and while was she was said to be "sarcastic" in high school, she was NEVER described as coy, flirtatious, or for that matter, popular.
7. The whole scene was beyond awful, and looked like it had been dreamed up by 10th graders (I chose that because Lizzie dropped out of high school in the 10th grade...someone please correct me if I'm wrong about that.) Dim lighting (the only thing the director got right) loud music, champagne flowing, men and women standing closely together, all inaccurate.

The actions of the people at the party more closely resembled what might have gone on at a "house of ill-repute" and hardly the upper-class elite stata of Fall River society of which Lizzie yearned to be a part.

I need to come up with a shorthanded way of telling folks just WHY this movie was so awful. Maybe if I were able to pin down the 3 worst inaccuracies...how's this:

1. Christina Ricci's appearance and behavior was the complete opposite of the real Lizzie Borden.
2. Not only was it never proved Lizzie tried to buy poison, Eli Bence didn't testify at trial; this evidence wasn't allowed in by the judge.
3. The movie completely ignored a key person who staying at the Borden house when the murders took place: John Morse, invited by Andrew Borden to visit and expected to have lunch with Andrew an hour before he was brutally killed.

Can anyone else think of any other glaring falsehoods?

(PS I don't think I could stand watching this movie a second time...UNLESS there was no musical soundtrack. )

[Catbooks]

i'm giggling a bit at your close friend's take-away from the movie. pretty much what we all suspected would happen for those viewing it who know little to nothing about this case.

i would add the fact that lizzie was NOT told in court to bring in her dress as evidence the next day, and then trotted right home to burn it in the yard as one of your three points. that's pretty glaring.

[PattiG157]

These are only a FEW of the errors I noticed: Bridgett was laying down upstairs, not outside, when Lizzie screamed that "Father has been killed;" Lizzie did not burn the dress outside in a cauldron, but inside in the kitchen stove; Alice Russell, not Emma, addressed Lizzie when the dress was being burned; Lizzie did not want to "buy the Maplecroft house," since she named it Maplecroft AFTER she bought it; the burning of the dress took place a few days after the murder, not on "September 15th;" and where, oh where, was Uncle John, one of the major suspects? It's like they didn't even TRY to get it right! ... as Charlie Brown would say, "good grief"!!!!!!!!

[RichardX]

I really enjoyed this movie much to my surprise. Anyone who watches a "Lifetime" movie expecting a pedantic historical account is doomed to disappointment (read a book instead), but the movie itself was a lot of fun. Ricci did an outstanding job as Lizzie. They managed to capture the essence of the case and many of its myths in this retelling. I even liked the modern music.

[Franz]

Too bad that I can't see the film.

Will it be available in youtube?

[FactFinder]

Seeing as many other Lifetime movies are allegedly based on true events, you have to wonder how true they are. I think they should have to put a disclaimer on them. "Loosely based on something that might have happened but we're not sure."

[Catbooks]

not sure, or, we don't care.

[RichardX]

One thing that did puzzle me about the movie narrative was why they made such a big deal about Lizzie burning the dress while they depicted her either nude or in her underwear committing the crime. Why would she need to burn the dress if that was the case? It wouldn't have any blood on it. And why did Knowlton tell her the dress had blood on it when he didn't have possession of the dress at that point and had not conducted an examination? I realize that they made a mess of the actual events, but in the context of the movie it did not make much sense.

[Miranda]

I learned a few things from the movie that I had never known before:

1. The air in Fall River in 1892 was inexplicably filled with rock music.

2. The people and horses of Fall River in 1892 often walked in slow motion for no apparent reason.

3. Apparently, a man named John Morse never existed.

4. Lizzie went to a party attended by Nance O'Neill just before the murders.

Fascinating. Just fascinating. Now if you will all excuse me, I have to finish throwing up.

This is just about my feelings exactly. it was AWFUL! The jarring music set it off, I cant for the life of me figure out what that was for. Apparently the whole thing started after church on a Sunday?? Lizzie being sexy was just laughable. Hints that Daddy was messin with her were unbelievable and obviously contrived. (even though the possibility may exist, there is no real evidence anywhere)
Granted I watched it in ICU, but even so I was well enough to know crapola. Someday I hope to get those 2 hours back...lol

[twinsrwe]

… twins and Nancy, you both point out major problems with the accuracy of the film. I think the movie was made to "entertain" youthful audiences, not to inform them. That's truly a shame. On the other hand, maybe some young people saw the film, became interested in the case, and decided to do some research on their own. You never know.

Well, you may be right, Darrowfan. However, if this movie was to "entertain" youthful audiences, then I would think that the youth of today would be insulted. Our young people today are highly intelligent and I think they would just chalk this movie up as being a bad horror flick. There was so many scenes that any intelligent person could see were obviously fake.

However, if any intelligent young person would see this film and decided to do some research to find the truth of what happened in the Borden murders, they would be in for quite a few surprises, wouldn't they?

[twinsrwe]

Lizzie feeding the chickens. (I didn’t know the Bordens had chickens! I thought they had a horse at one point in time, but chickens???).

Lizzie cleaning out the chicken coop. (Somehow, I just can’t see Lizzie doing this ‘kind’ of work. Wouldn’t this kind of work, have been beneath her?).

I thought they were intended to be pigeons -- a reference to an incident Lizzie mentioned at the inquest, in which Andrew removed the heads of some pigeons int he barn. It has been surmised that Lizzie (who we know was later fond of animals, if not of one certain noisy bird) may have kept pigeons as pets and that Andrew callously killed them. Whether this was done with a hatchet or by twisting the heads off, Lizzie didn't say. All she reported was having seen the heads off. Ugh.

What puzzled me about the business about the pidgins in the movie was that it seemed they had Lizzie dreaming that she herself had gone into the cage and hacked them up. Then in a later scene, we see her raking out some bloody straw from the cage, with only a modest amount of disgust. I didn't get that, and I am not going to re-watch the movie to check myself! Ugh again :(

Well, I recorded this horrible movie, and re-watched it to check out that particular scene. (Thank God the scene we are referring to was within the first 10 minutes of the film!) You are absolutely right, they were pigeons. My bad! Thanks for pointing this error out to me, I do appreciate it.

I agree with you about Lizzie cleaning out the pigeon coop, and I’m with you – I am not going to re-watch the movie again to try and make sense out of it!

[debbiediablo]

I saw a brief preview for this movie last night during Bonnie & Clyde. It is going to air Jan. 25. The preview looked interesting.

I saw that preview as well, Richard. I found it somewhat surreal, but I'm looking forward to seeing the film. I hope they don't take too many liberties. (No liberties at all would be even better, of course.)

Bonnie and Clyde was equally factoid and nonsense, also made for the Twilight/Hunger Games generation. However, Christina Ricci, however unsuited she might be physically and age-wise, play Lizzie as a borderline personality disorder which is exactly what I think she was.

[twinsrwe]

Something that I found interesting: While ironing, Lizzie was humming "My Bonnie Lies over the Ocean", which is a traditional Scottish folk song. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Bonnie_ ... _the_Ocean)

The real Lizzie Borden definitely had a fascination with Scotland; her ‘Grand Tour’ of Europe, included London, traversed Scotland, Paris and Rome.

Lizzie named their 306 French Street house on the hill, "Maplecroft", which she had carved into the top stone riser of the front steps. There are maple trees located on the property, and the word "croft" is a Scottish term meaning a small enclosed plot of land, adjoining a house. Hence the name "Maplecroft".
Sources: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/croft and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croft_(land)

In the room overlooking French Street, Lizzie had accumulated a large library. Carved into the library mantel, above the brick fireplace, and decorated with acanthus leaves and thistles, were the following words: AT HAME IN MY AIN COUNTRIE. There are discrepancies as to whether these words are from the poem ‘Hame, Hame, Hame’ by Allan Cunningham, or from the poem ‘My Ain Countrie’ by Mary Augusta Lee Demarest. However, both poems are from Scottish origin.

It is not known if Lizzie had the words ‘AT HAME IN MY AIN COUNTRIE’ inscribed in the mantle, or if they were from the previous owner. However, Lizzie did request, the 1st and 4th verse of ‘My Ain Countrie’ be sung at her funeral. 'My Ain Countrie' is an old Scottish air.

Rebello, 322+
"Note: The hymn, My Ain Countrie, is an old Scottish air.

[debbiediablo]

I'd give it 1 out of 5 stars. What I didn't like:

1) that awful music - so obviously out of place for that time period

2) Lizzie sneaking out to the party at the beginning & the low-cut blouse she wore. Lizzie was a spinster & dressed more conservatively

3) Stepmother was too “made up” & less bulky than the real Abby. Kathy Bates would’ve been perfect for that part

4) Father should’ve had white hair

5) Did not like the dress-burning scene. Why stray from the facts? Have her burn it in the stove - not in a fire pit out back

Kathy Bates??!?!? Kathy Bates would've taken that ax, and Lizzie wouldn't have had any feet...and none of would be here...