Did Lizzie have some one to help her?

[Catbooks]

i think she wanted abby found so the finding could be over with! the suspense of it all had to have been eating away at her.

i was reading her inquest testimony and found this:

Q. When did you last see your mother?
A. I did not see her after when I went down in the morning and she was dusting the dining room.
Q. Where did you or she go then?
A. I don't know where she went. I know where I was.
Q. Did you or she leave the dining room first?
A I think I did. I left her in the dining room.
Q. You never saw her or heard her afterwards?
A. No sir.
Q. Did she say anything about making the bed?
A. She said she had been up and made the bed up fresh and had dusted the room and left it all in order. She was going to put some fresh pillow slips on the small pillows at the foot of the bed and was going to close the room because she was going to have company Monday and she wanted everything in order.
Q. How long would it take to put on the pillow slips?
A. About two minutes.
Q. How long to do the rest of the things?
A. She had done that when I came down.
Q. All that was left was what?
A. To put on the pillow slips.
Q. Can you give me any suggestion as to what occupied her when she was up there, when she was struck dead?
A. I don't know of anything except she had some cotton cloth pillow cases up there and she said she was going to commence to work on them. That is all I know. And the sewing machine was up there.
Q. Whereabouts was the sewing machine?
A. In the corner between the north and west side.
Q. Did you hear the sewing machine going?
A. I did not.
Q. Did you see anything to indicate that the sewing machine had been used that morning?
A. I had not. I did not go in there until after everybody had been in there and the room had been overhauled.
Q. If she had remained downstairs, you would undoubtedly have seen her?
A. If she had remained downstairs, I should have. If she had remained in her room, I should not have.
Q. Where was that?
A. Over the kitchen.
Q. To get to that room she would have to go through the kitchen?
A. To get up the back stairs.
Q. That is the way she was in the habit of going?
A. Yes sir, because the other doors were locked.
Q. If she had remained downstairs or had gone to her own room, you undoubtedly would have seen her?
A. I should have seen her if she had stayed downstairs. If she had gone to her room, I would not have seen her.
Q. She was found a little after 11 in the spare room. If she had gone to her own room, she must have gone through the kitchen and up the back stairs and subsequently have gone down and gone back again?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Have you any reason to suppose you would not have seen her if she had spent any portion of the time in her room or downstairs?
A. There is no reason why I should not have seen her if she had been down there, except when I first came downstairs, for two or three minutes, I went down cellar to the water closet.

i know, it's long! i was having trouble finding a cut-off point. but why does she go into all this testimony and all of this covering what abby did, where she was, and all of that without mentioning abby telling her about the note and abby going out to visit this sick friend, as well as shopping for their noon dinner? surely that would have been the appropriate time to mention it.

a little after that, this:

Q. I ask again, perhaps you have answered all you care to, what explanation can you give, can you suggest, as to what she was doing from the time she said she had got the work all done in the spare room, until 11 o'clock?
A. I suppose she went up and made her own bed.
Q. That would be in the back part?
A. Yes sir.

still no mention of the note, or of thinking she heard abby come back in.

[debbiediablo]

Her attorney likely told her to answer the questions without volunteering information. That's standard legal advice now and probably was then, too. Lizzie was reportedly given morphine on a daily basis at that time, and morphine can addle the brain. But most likely is she couldn't get her story straight because part of it was untrue. Words in a transcript don't provide the full picture of how she looked and acted on the witness stand, nor do we see which way her eyes moved as she answered. As for Abby's body, I agree Lizzie wanted to get it over with...but only because people were starting to wonder about her whereabouts. Her need to find Andrew had to do with their emotional attachment. "Mrs. Borden" didn't matter all that much.

[Curryong]

i think she wanted abby found so the finding could be over with! the suspense of it all had to have been eating away at her.

i was reading her inquest testimony and found this:

Q. When did you last see your mother?
A. I did not see her after when I went down in the morning and she was dusting the dining room.
Q. Where did you or she go then?
A. I don't know where she went. I know where I was.
Q. Did you or she leave the dining room first?
A I think I did. I left her in the dining room.
Q. You never saw her or heard her afterwards?
A. No sir.
Q. Did she say anything about making the bed?
A. She said she had been up and made the bed up fresh and had dusted the room and left it all in order. She was going to put some fresh pillow slips on the small pillows at the foot of the bed and was going to close the room because she was going to have company Monday and she wanted everything in order.
Q. How long would it take to put on the pillow slips?
A. About two minutes.
Q. How long to do the rest of the things?
A. She had done that when I came down.
Q. All that was left was what?
A. To put on the pillow slips.
Q. Can you give me any suggestion as to what occupied her when she was up there, when she was struck dead?
A. I don't know of anything except she had some cotton cloth pillow cases up there and she said she was going to commence to work on them. That is all I know. And the sewing machine was up there.
Q. Whereabouts was the sewing machine?
A. In the corner between the north and west side.
Q. Did you hear the sewing machine going?
A. I did not.
Q. Did you see anything to indicate that the sewing machine had been used that morning?
A. I had not. I did not go in there until after everybody had been in there and the room had been overhauled.
Q. If she had remained downstairs, you would undoubtedly have seen her?
A. If she had remained downstairs, I should have. If she had remained in her room, I should not have.
Q. Where was that?
A. Over the kitchen.
Q. To get to that room she would have to go through the kitchen?
A. To get up the back stairs.
Q. That is the way she was in the habit of going?
A. Yes sir, because the other doors were locked.
Q. If she had remained downstairs or had gone to her own room, you undoubtedly would have seen her?
A. I should have seen her if she had stayed downstairs. If she had gone to her room, I would not have seen her.
Q. She was found a little after 11 in the spare room. If she had gone to her own room, she must have gone through the kitchen and up the back stairs and subsequently have gone down and gone back again?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Have you any reason to suppose you would not have seen her if she had spent any portion of the time in her room or downstairs?
A. There is no reason why I should not have seen her if she had been down there, except when I first came downstairs, for two or three minutes, I went down cellar to the water closet.

i know, it's long! i was having trouble finding a cut-off point. but why does she go into all this testimony and all of this covering what abby did, where she was, and all of that without mentioning abby telling her about the note and abby going out to visit this sick friend, as well as shopping for their noon dinner? surely that would have been the appropriate time to mention it.

a little after that, this:

Q. I ask again, perhaps you have answered all you care to, what explanation can you give, can you suggest, as to what she was doing from the time she said she had got the work all done in the spare room, until 11 o'clock?
A. I suppose she went up and made her own bed.
Q. That would be in the back part?
A. Yes sir.

still no mention of the note, or of thinking she heard abby come back in.

I tried to only put in part of the quote and I couldn't. What is wrong with me? Techno-illiterate! The point is, I suppose, that we really do not know what Abby did or said after Andrew left and Bridget was er, doing other things.
Every single word, every single purported action of Abby's after Bridget saw her last comes to us via Lizzie.

No-one came forward, for instance, to claim that they were going to visit the Bordens the next Monday, we think the note was probably a fiction, and so on. The silk handkerchief found beside Abby PERHAPS points to her doing some dusting.

We don't really know how many minutes Abby was upstairs. In spite of Lizzie's testimony we don't know whether Abby had made the guest room bed prior (and dusted) as her step daughter said, or whether she had just finished making the bed and was starting on the dusting, when she was attacked . We don't know whether an argument broke out upstairs beforehand, or whether Lizzie took advantage of Abby's back being turned and just went for it.

[Catbooks]

i think she wanted abby found so the finding could be over with! the suspense of it all had to have been eating away at her.

i was reading her inquest testimony and found this:

Q. When did you last see your mother?
A. I did not see her after when I went down in the morning and she was dusting the dining room.
Q. Where did you or she go then?
A. I don't know where she went. I know where I was.
Q. Did you or she leave the dining room first?
A I think I did. I left her in the dining room.
Q. You never saw her or heard her afterwards?
A. No sir.
Q. Did she say anything about making the bed?
A. She said she had been up and made the bed up fresh and had dusted the room and left it all in order. She was going to put some fresh pillow slips on the small pillows at the foot of the bed and was going to close the room because she was going to have company Monday and she wanted everything in order.
Q. How long would it take to put on the pillow slips?
A. About two minutes.
Q. How long to do the rest of the things?
A. She had done that when I came down.
Q. All that was left was what?
A. To put on the pillow slips.
Q. Can you give me any suggestion as to what occupied her when she was up there, when she was struck dead?
A. I don't know of anything except she had some cotton cloth pillow cases up there and she said she was going to commence to work on them. That is all I know. And the sewing machine was up there.
Q. Whereabouts was the sewing machine?
A. In the corner between the north and west side.
Q. Did you hear the sewing machine going?
A. I did not.
Q. Did you see anything to indicate that the sewing machine had been used that morning?
A. I had not. I did not go in there until after everybody had been in there and the room had been overhauled.
Q. If she had remained downstairs, you would undoubtedly have seen her?
A. If she had remained downstairs, I should have. If she had remained in her room, I should not have.
Q. Where was that?
A. Over the kitchen.
Q. To get to that room she would have to go through the kitchen?
A. To get up the back stairs.
Q. That is the way she was in the habit of going?
A. Yes sir, because the other doors were locked.
Q. If she had remained downstairs or had gone to her own room, you undoubtedly would have seen her?
A. I should have seen her if she had stayed downstairs. If she had gone to her room, I would not have seen her.
Q. She was found a little after 11 in the spare room. If she had gone to her own room, she must have gone through the kitchen and up the back stairs and subsequently have gone down and gone back again?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Have you any reason to suppose you would not have seen her if she had spent any portion of the time in her room or downstairs?
A. There is no reason why I should not have seen her if she had been down there, except when I first came downstairs, for two or three minutes, I went down cellar to the water closet.

i know, it's long! i was having trouble finding a cut-off point. but why does she go into all this testimony and all of this covering what abby did, where she was, and all of that without mentioning abby telling her about the note and abby going out to visit this sick friend, as well as shopping for their noon dinner? surely that would have been the appropriate time to mention it.

a little after that, this:

Q. I ask again, perhaps you have answered all you care to, what explanation can you give, can you suggest, as to what she was doing from the time she said she had got the work all done in the spare room, until 11 o'clock?
A. I suppose she went up and made her own bed.
Q. That would be in the back part?
A. Yes sir.

still no mention of the note, or of thinking she heard abby come back in.

I tried to only put in part of the quote and I couldn't. What is wrong with me? Techno-illiterate! The point is, I suppose, that we really do not know what Abby did or said after Andrew left and Bridget was er, doing other things.
Every single word, every single purported action of Abby's after Bridget saw her last comes to us via Lizzie.

No-one came forward, for instance, to claim that they were going to visit the Bordens the next Monday, we think the note was probably a fiction, and so on. The silk handkerchief found beside Abby PERHAPS points to her doing some dusting.

We don't really know how many minutes Abby was upstairs. In spite of Lizzie's testimony we don't know whether Abby had made the guest room bed prior (and dusted) as her step daughter said, or whether she had just finished making the bed and was starting on the dusting, when she was attacked . We don't know whether an argument broke out upstairs beforehand, or whether Lizzie took advantage of Abby's back being turned and just went for it.

no, we don't know any of that. except for bridget's testimony about abby that morning, we've only got lizzie's words to go on.

i was just struck by the fact that after being asked directly, repeatedly what lizzie saw abby do or heard her say, she didn't take that opportunity to mention the note, which i think was part of her (weak) alibi.

[Curryong]

Yes, Lizzie's responses both directly after the murder and her testimony at the Inquest became very muddled, (I don't think it was the result of her medication so much as lying about certain points and then forgetting what she'd previously said. I agree her not mentioning the note until she had to was significant.

[Catbooks]

i don't think the morphine had much if anything to do with it either. it was a small dose, with instructions to take it no more than twice a day, and the effects of morphine leave pretty quickly anyway.

did you know poor abby's braided hairpiece was found in the middle of the bed on the bedspread? i suppose i once knew that, but forgot. how the heck did that get there? there was blood on the bedspread as well, but i'm not clear on if it were just spatter near the bottom or in the middle of the bed.

i'd imagined lizzie coming into the guest room while abby was occupied putting pillow cases on, hatchet hidden in the folds of her skirt, then surprising abby by coming from behind her and, well, you know the rest. but with the hairpiece on the bed, and the two other wounds that weren't on the back of her head - one on the nape of her neck, the other somewhere on the side of her face - there was more activity going on in there than i'd been seeing in my head.

poor abby.

[Curryong]

I didn't know that? How interesting! Who was the braid found by? You're right, it sounds as if she was bending over the bed (straightening something?) when the first blow was struck. That would certainly have dislodged the false hair. After the first blow did she topple backwards, look up or backwards momentarily as the hatchet struck, (to see who it was), or instinctively totter from the edge of the bed? Back to reading of the transcripts for me.

[twinsrwe]

Curryong, I love your avatar!!!

[Curryong]

Thank you twinsrwe, koalas are very cute!

[Mara]

Yes, the most damning circumstantial evidence we have for Lizzie's guilt is her failure to flee the house. Any innocent person would have wanted to, as Catbooks put it so well, get the HELL out of there. For her to have stood int he doorway all that time is either the act of a very stupid guilty person, or of a person with a serious mental illness, or both.

[Curryong]

If she didn't suffer from a serious mental illness and was of normal average intelligence, (and was the killer, of course) so many of her stupid statements and behaviour litter this case, ie muddled testimony, telling one story to one person, changing it for another, not putting in at least an appearance of being terrified, remaining in the house and not fleeing, etc etc that you do wonder whether she put any thought or planning into these murders beforehand at all. Except for the probable prior purchase of the hatchet it points to a frenzied spontaneous attack, if we didn't know better.

[twinsrwe]

Thank you twinsrwe, koalas are very cute!

You're welcome. I agree, koalas are very cute.

[debbiediablo]

Opportunity – Motive – Evidence

.... To me it demands that either she had an accomplice or was innocent.

Since I don't think that Lizzie could have acted in that way if she had had an accomplice, so my conclusion is: most probably Lizzie was innocent.

This is my conjectures list about the case (the probability from high to low, in my opinion):

1. Lizzie was totally innocent; the real guilty person was Morse, who organized the double murder.

2. Lizzie was guilty and acted alone.

3. Lizzie was guilty but some one helped her to take away the weapon.

4. Lizzie was guilty but some one else killed for her (and took the weapon away after the killing).

Opportunity – Franz, I agree with your list with two changes. My list would look more like this:

1. Lizzie was totally innocent; the real guilty person was someone else.

2. Lizzie was guilty and acted alone.

3. Lizzie was guilty but someone helped her to take away the weapon and other incriminating evidence if there was any.

4. Lizzie was guilty but someone else killed for her and possibly took away the weapon and other incriminating evidence if there was some.

5. Two different people killed Andrew and Abby.

At this point it's nothing more than a process of elimination

Motive –There's a reason for every behavior under the sun and all of them fall under one of three categories:

1. getting something – for instance financial gain, attention, love, revenge, justice, to have power and control, pleasure, to win, blah blah blah

2. to avoid losing something – see list in #1 and extrapolate

3. biological dysfunction – "the barking dog next door is really God telling me what to do"

Evidence – Motive needs to be identified and then eliminate those with opportunity. Or opportunity needs to be established and then eliminate those without motive. At this point all the other evidence comes into play. Even with strong DNA evidence there needs to be corroborating opportunity. For instance a person cannot be guilty of murder if they were sitting in the dental chair when the crime occurred. Then either the DNA is tainted or the dentist's clock battery is dead.

This is why the Borden case is so perplexing. Only two people had known motive – Lizzie and Emma. Only two people had known opportunity – Lizzie and Bridget. The person who has both opportunity and motive is Lizzie...except there's a dearth of corroborating evidence (time, weapon and blood splatter).

[Curryong]

I guess in your last sentence, Debbiediablo , when you say, Quote 'a dearth of corroborating evidence (time, weapon and blood splatter) with regard to timing and Lizzie's guilt you are mainly referring to Andrew's murder? Am I correct? I think Lizzie would have had about ten to fifteen minutes between doing the deed and calling Bridget, and a great deal can be accomplished in 15 minutes!

[Curryong]

Of course, Lizzie's case was quite a weak circumstantial one, it's true. No weapon was found, no blood splatter on any clothing was discovered, and time was of the essence in the case of Andrew Borden's murder. Undoubtedly the first two were very important in her acquittal.
It does make the case perplexing and fascinating. Yet, looking at it dispassionately now, over 120 years later, who is in the main frame? Not John Morse or Bridget, unless they had a reason no-one has been able to fathom out yet. Emma was away. So unless we go for an intruder, with the most incredible luck and an unknown motive, or a hired hit-man, ditto, there is just one person left. Lizzie.

[Catbooks]

great post, debbie!

i agree with curryong that 15 minutes is enough time to do quite a lot, enough to get everything she needed to get done.

[Catbooks]

I didn't know that? How interesting! Who was the braid found by? You're right, it sounds as if she was bending over the bed (straightening something?) when the first blow was struck. That would certainly have dislodged the false hair. After the first blow did she topple backwards, look up or backwards momentarily as the hatchet struck, (to see who it was), or instinctively totter from the edge of the bed? Back to reading of the transcripts for me.

by dr dolan and the police first on the scene.

debbie just posted the autopsy reports on andrew and abby in another thread. (warning, if you have a weak stomach, as i do, it might make you feel a bit queasy. no snacks while reading the reports!)

there were several wounds on the front of abby's face, something i didn't know. on her forehead, on or near the bridge of her nose. the one on her back was on her shoulder not far from her neck, not the nape of her neck.

now i really don't know how the attack on abby started.

edited to add: forgot to mention the koala! he is adorable. he looks like he got startled mid-bite into the leaf

[Curryong]

Yes, you can't see the full expression as the avatar is so small. He looks like he's saying "What the....!"
Without second-guessing, and thank you debbie, weren't some of the facial marks believed to to contusions due to Abbie's head hitting the carpet? I must have a look!

[debbiediablo]

I didn't know that? How interesting! Who was the braid found by? You're right, it sounds as if she was bending over the bed (straightening something?) when the first blow was struck. That would certainly have dislodged the false hair. After the first blow did she topple backwards, look up or backwards momentarily as the hatchet struck, (to see who it was), or instinctively totter from the edge of the bed? Back to reading of the transcripts for me.

by dr dolan and the police first on the scene.

debbie just posted the autopsy reports on andrew and abby in another thread. (warning, if you have a weak stomach, as i do, it might make you feel a bit queasy. no snacks while reading the reports!)

there were several wounds on the front of abby's face, something i didn't know. on her forehead, on or near the bridge of her nose. the one on her back was on her shoulder not far from her neck, not the nape of her neck.

now i really don't know how the attack on abby started.

edited to add: forgot to mention the koala! he is adorable. he looks like he got startled mid-bite into the leaf

Everything about this case has multiple opinions/interpretations on who, what, how, where, why...however here is the account I tend to believe right now:

Abby came face to face with her killer and was struck in the face. I'm inclined to see this as 1) the culmination of an altercation, and Lizzie came back with the hatchet, or 2) she came face to face with Lizzie who came to kill her, hatchet in hand, or 3) she came face to face with someone else with hatchet in hand. I'm fairly certain that Abby knew she was going to die and that her final moments were spent in abject terror.

Abby turned and either fled to the far side of the bed or she was already there. Bruises to her face resulted from falling forward after being struck from behind. This would also account for the blow to the neck; she and the killer were both upright and the killer was striking wildly to bring her down. Abby's body was moved before the photographs were taken. Initially she looked as though she might be trying to get away from the killer by crawling under the bed. The killer climbed her back, but Abby was a stout woman who wouldn't be easy to hold down in a fight for her life. She wasn't a stationary target like Andrew. This enraged the killer who continued to beat Abby in the head until she was past death.

[Curryong]

I know Abby was moved a little for photographic purposes but she almost looks to me, in viewing the crime scene photos, as if she 'crumbled' or slumped to the ground, (possibly in that first slew of blows with her arms covering her face,) rather than fell, like a giant oak in the forest, onto her face, if I can put it like that. The defensive posture wouldn't have lasted for very long. I have no medical training whatsoever, but a couple of deep hatchet blows to the skull, plus a flap wound to the facial area would induce deep unconsciousness in most people, you would imagine. The killer then went astride and vented her anger on a dead woman.

[Catbooks]

debbie, i hope your currently favored abby scenario is wrong. horrible to think about abby dying that way. i'd rather think it was curryong's version, with her being knocked unconscious early on.

right, abby's body was moved, but not substantially. her feet were a bit farther past the end of the bed, her arms were raised over her head and her hands were described as being 'clasped,' but probably the policeman just meant hands close together, not actually clasped. and she was slightly under the bed, or closer to the bed.

there's no way she could have fit under it, but i suppose if she were in terror, trapped, you never know, she might have done that, futile as it would have been.

the hairpiece was in the middle of the bed, and it was described as having been cut with something very sharp. that and the gilt found in her skull (but not in andrew's) also lead me to think it was a new hatchet, most likely the one found on top of the small building in crowe's yard.

you can see a hairpin in the photo of the braided hairpiece. i'm assuming abby wore it wrapped around a portion of her head, given her age. this leads me to think there was a scuffle of some sort, causing the hairpiece to come down on her back or shoulder, and then cut by a swing of the hatchet, probably the one on her back.

1) the culmination of an altercation, and Lizzie came back with the hatchet

this one i can't see, because the hatchet would have to already be upstairs. if it were the culmination of an altercation, it would be unplanned, and there's really no reason for there to be a hatchet upstairs. i can't see her getting into an argument with abby, running down the stairs and through the house, down to the cellar to get the hatchet, then back again.

2 and 3 are certainly possible.

[Curryong]

Shall we start a new thread on specifically Abby's death wounds, blood splatter in the guest bedroom etc, or keep using several threads to discuss it? The advantage of having it all on the one thread, I guess, is that all our input would be gathered together, rather than on threads that were initially started to discuss something else. I'm easy about either choice, however.

[Catbooks]

a new thread is a good idea. it's hard to remember which thread has which info when there are several of them going. we've got three lizzie dresses threads going and i get mixed up on which thread who said what :)

[debbiediablo]

I do think it's possible for a murderer to leave the scene and return with a weapon and go to work. It happens a lot in spontaneous homicide, and I am not convinced that Abby's death was planned like Andrew's. More often people return with guns but there's no evidence that a gun was in the house. But I am not convinced on this point; for me, there are other equal viable scenarios.

[Catbooks]

oh, that's interesting. i think abby's death was uppermost in lizzie's mind. what makes you think andrew's death may have been more planned-out than abby's?

[debbiediablo]

Despite the numerous similarities they are two different murders. We cannot consider them to be entirely the same other than it appears to be the same weapon and most likely the same killer within the same house. We don't know whether Abby's death was planned in tandem with Andrew's or whether an argument between Lizzie and Abby turned violent, and once Abby was dead then killing Andrew was the only viable option. Or maybe she only intended to kill Abby, until Abby's last words were, "You're father will know it was you. He knows what you are." Which switches Lizzie over to Plan B. I'm not saying any of this happened...just trying to look with 'unknowing' at every possible scenario I can imagine.

[Curryong]

Yes debbiediablo, one of the most frustrating things about this case is that almost everything that has come down to us about what the victims did or said has come down to us through the Lizzie-prism.
You are right, we don't know whether a huge quarrel broke out between Abby and Lizzie, whether Abby did manage to scream, perhaps just once, and wasn't overheard, or whether Lizzie stole up on her unexpectedly and got the first blow in before she could react much at all.
Lizzie's reported solicitous comments to her father just before his demise received short shrift from her uncle Hiram Harrington. Supposed queries about draughts and 'naps' might have been, in fact, just those few words about the mail overheard by Bridget, followed by silence and Lizzie retreating to the dining room.

[Catbooks]

there is a lot we don't know, and can't know, unless by some miracle important new evidence surfaces. i'm not holding my breath on that!

meanwhile all we can do is speculate on what we think is the most probable scenario, given what information we have.

while i'm at 95% it was lizzie who dunnit, sometimes i waver on that too.

[Catbooks]

ha! i just found this. never heard it before. for a bit of lizzie-related comic relief :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wlO-J0v9ZY

[Curryong]

Thanks for posting that, Catbooks, it's a bit of fun on a dark subject.

[Catbooks]

i thought you'd appreciate that one, curryong! i admit i laughed out loud a couple of times at the lyrics *grins*

[snokkums]

Many people believe Lizzie did it.

I noticed that, among the members of the forum, some people think Lizzie was guilty, but meanwhile, some facts trouble them so much that they don't think Lizzie did it with her hands. So it seems that they are obliged to find a "middle" solution: there must have been some one to help her to kill.

This is certainly a respectable theory: it could explain many things. But a very important point troubles me a lot: Lizzie's alibi.

If Lizzie did have some one to help her, the murder would have been undoubtedly premeditated. In this case, I hardly believe that Lizzie could have prepared her alibi in such a suicide manner. In my opinion, she could, certainly, have let enter the killer, remained in the house to guide him, to help to hide him after he had killed Abby, and she could told her father that Abby had gone to the store. When Bridget went to her room to have a rest and Andrew was lying on the sofa to have a nap, Lizzie could have met her conspirator, and said: "Listen, Bridget is now in her room, he is sleeping on the sofa in the sitting room. Now I am going to the store and pretend to look for Abby, You kill him in five minutes after I leave the house, In five minutes I will be in the store." And then, Lizzie could have made a tour of stores to pretend to search Abby, before returning home at about, for example, 11:30. At that moment, or Bridget had found Andrew's body, or, if not, Lizzie could have had very solid testimonies about her alibi when her father was killed. Since it would not be difficult to conclude that most probably Abby was killed by the same killer, so Lizzie would not be suspected for Abby's death as well (Indeed she didn't kill none of them with her own hands).

What I imagine here isn't it a very easy and safe solution for Lizzie's alibi? But what really happened that morning makes me think that most probably Lizzie didn't prepare nothing about her alibi. Who didn't have to prepare an alibi? The author of a premeditated murder, or an innocent?

What do you think?

I think she was all by herself in doing the murders. It doesn't make sense that she protect the person that helped her kill her parents. I mean, I would be blabbing like crazy if I was accused of killing someone and I had help, I'd be blabbing.

[Curryong]

It would be a good alibi, Snokkums, if Lizzie went down the street shopping or pretending to look for Abby while the murderer killed Andrew. You would have to make sure people remembered you being there though, otherwise there'd be no point.
The trouble with Lizzie having someone to help her is, if he or she did it for love, would they have let Lizzie rot in jail for nearly a year and then go to trial, with the possibility of the death penalty if she was found guilty? And afterwards, why weren't she and Lizzie together?
If Lizzie employed someone to kill Abby and Andrew and then paid them off, it's hard to imagine that they would have kept their mouths shut for the rest of their lives without blackmailing Lizzie for more money. There's no evidence that she was ever paying money out to anyone.
I'm like you and believe that Lizzie killed alone. It would be more interesting in a way if there were a couple of other good suspects we could discuss.

[Catbooks]

if there were a second person (i don't think there was, but for the sake of argument), they would have to have as much to lose as lizzie if they were discovered. lizzie would have to have a lot to lose disclosing who it was in order for her to keep her lips sealed while she was being tried and might have ended up being hung over it.

aside from emma, i can't think of anyone that could be. emma was in fairhaven, so that knocks her off the list of one.

[Curryong]

Yes Catbooks, you have a point and that second person would have had to have incontrovertible evidence, a letter or something, to show that Lizzie was the master-mind. I suppose if a second person had no money or very little, they might be desperate enough to go to Lizzie and say something like "You have much more to lose than me. I'll make sure every newspaper in the country gets a copy of this letter you sent me and if you think people look sideways at you now, wait and see what they do then. If I go to trial you're going to have to explain this letter away in the witness box. I'll make your life a living hell' (Whoa, imagination running away with me!) Lizzie might pay up under those circumstances.
Quite frankly, IF there was any conspiracy to murder, I can only imagine it between people as close as Lizzie and Emma, and Emma would never in a million years (a) countenance murder, and (b) let Lizzie put her own life in danger in order to kill Abby. As for her influence in other ways on Lizzie's hatred of her stepmother, well, we've discussed this in other threads.

[Catbooks]

Emma would never in a million years (a) countenance murder, and (b) let Lizzie put her own life in danger in order to kill Abby. As for her influence in other ways on Lizzie's hatred of her stepmother, well, we've discussed this in other threads.

that's what i think too, curryong, but wouldn't it be a kick in the head if it turned out we have emma all wrong?

i was thinking about this while watching the elizabeth montgomery movie. they portrayed emma as being very normal, with normal reactions. (whatever normal means.) mind, i don't think anyone in the household was, but it had me thinking: what if i were entirely wrong about emma, and she wasn't the low-key, repressed, quiet privacy-loving person i think she is?

what if emma were the mastermind? she couldn't have done the actual killing, and i don't think for a minute she'd have let lizzie swing, if it came down to it.

i'm writing all this off the top of my head, so feel free to poke holes in it :)

emma was the one who first planted the seeds in lizzie against abby, the one who resented abby.

what if she fanned the flames further, realizing if she left the three of them alone, it was very likely lizzie would blow and kill them off. maybe they even discussed and planned the whole thing together, agreeing that if lizzie got charged and convicted, emma would step forward and both of them would die. but if that didn't happen, emma would inherit, she'd split everything with lizzie, and they'd be free to live the lives they wanted to, without abby or andrew holding them back.

what if emma's objection to the live lizzie was leading at maplecroft was too high profile for her, being the more circumspect of the two, and they argued about it, resulting in emma's going off to live her private life, and lizzie living the life she wanted to live.

[Curryong]

You know Catbooks, I've often wondered about Emma, myself. We know so little about her character, motivations etc. but I do play around with the idea that Emma knew Lizzie's personality and that there was some very nasty undercurrents brewing in the Borden home that summer. Yet she decides to take a very rare vacation (supposedly lasting several months) away from Lizzie and away from it all.
You can of course look at how things developed in several ways. I can't visualise an actual plan being discussed. However, among people who have lived together for over thirty years sometimes there's no need for words. Look, I think Emma knew what Lizzie could be capable of, and I do believe she fanned the flames for years. Perhaps she had second thoughts about leaving Lizzie at the last minute. Remember, she and Alice Russell discussed how a visit to Marian would be nice for Lizzie.
For me, there's almost a fatalistic quality in Emma's reaction to her parents' death. I know they weren't an emotional family and were Massachusetts Yankees and all the rest of it, but, Crikey! It was almost as if she said to herself 'Well, she's done what I thought she might/would do. Now we have to stop her being arrested'.
Of course it's all speculation and maybe she was shocked to the core and could never accept, even to herself, that Lizzie was capable of murder. I agree with you about the Maplecroft years too. Emma just seemed to want to be completely forgotten by the general public and that wasn't possible while she lived with Lizzie.