LETS DO THIS....

[PossumPie]

We all need a core of security in a big and scary world. We need something that is bigger and more powerful than us. Religion fills this void. So can superstition. I'm a convert to Catholicism. I have lived with Muslims. Faith enriches life but there cannot be only one right religion. I am a conservative political writer but I have liberal Democrat friends who share my ideas about morals, poverty, etc. We disagree about how to make these things happen.

I believe God can do anything and that science proves how truly great is God. I have fundamentalist friends who limit God to the 6000 year old earth idea. We had a volcano explode in the northwest, Mt. St. Helens in 1980. My fundamentalist friends were thrilled that scientists found wood petrifying (petrified wood) within a few years of the eruption. This proves it doesn't take billions of years to get things done on earth.

As far as pro-life or not, in the US that discussion is becoming politically perverted beyond recognition. My biggest disgust is that it is always "pro-choice" or "pro-life" but no one is pushing the idea that before that point is reached, everything should be done to prevent the need for a horrible "choice". Sexual activity without moral restraint is encouraged all across society. Meanwhile ObamaCare thinks it can "prevent" chronic diseases through various draconian measures like limiting the size of soda people can buy! Nobody dares speak of REALLY trying to prevent unwanted pregnancy! Unfortunately "pro-choice" has become big business.

True, and I don't want the discussion to deteriorate into religion/politics...My points were that we hold beliefs that even given an overwhelming amount of good evidence against, we cling to like a life raft. I spent my whole life in a conservative Baptist home, with Christian parents who strongly believe in Noah's Ark and Adam and Eve. I spent 3 years researching the validity of evolution and an old earth, and had to finally admit, after months of agonizing, that they were factual. I did change a core belief, but it was very, very hard. I have seen people in this forum flip-flop from Lizzie did it, to Lizzie didn't (or vice versa) but usually they held no strong opinion to begin with. Those of us posting currently will almost certainly never switch our opinion of guilt/innocence, we all seem to hold very strongly to it. Actually, to change opinion is the mark of mature reasoning and open-mindedness.

[debbiediablo]

Very rarely is anyone ever truly wrong...for the moment they begin to sense the wrongness of their opinion so changes their opinion. Thus they once again become right in their own minds. I love the person who is able to say, "I don't know," or, "I've changed my mind looking at new facts or reconsidering the old ones." Once we get caught up in a rock solid belief based on what seems irrefutable fact then the chance of finding the truth begins a 'geometric regression'. Like John Lennon said, "The more I see, the less I know for sure."

[irina]

"Why" is my favorite question. While this can be annoying in a small child, it is perfectly fine on the internet. One why leads to another, to infinity if necessary. I would be disappointed if it could be proved Lizzie did it, but my very next response would be "why"? Women do commit horrible crimes. Many in our own time do so for selfish, uncaring reasons. Lizzie was involved with her church and church activities. She lived in a different time when morals were commonly held and part of daily life. Undoubtedly her church believed in hell and God's wrath. I would certainly want to know why she killed, why she couldn't find another way, why didn't she move out of her parents' home if it was so bad? Then there would be the "how" questions. How did she live with herself? How did she justify it? How did she fairly successfully cover up her part in the crime?

I do believe she didn't kill with her hands, but unfortunately her subsequent testimony does infer she covered up for the person who did. That could be a very interesting new story indeed!

[PossumPie]

"Why" is my favorite question. While this can be annoying in a small child, it is perfectly fine on the internet. One why leads to another, to infinity if necessary. I would be disappointed if it could be proved Lizzie did it, but my very next response would be "why"? Women do commit horrible crimes. Many in our own time do so for selfish, uncaring reasons. Lizzie was involved with her church and church activities. She lived in a different time when morals were commonly held and part of daily life. Undoubtedly her church believed in hell and God's wrath. I would certainly want to know why she killed, why she couldn't find another way, why didn't she move out of her parents' home if it was so bad? Then there would be the "how" questions. How did she live with herself? How did she justify it? How did she fairly successfully cover up her part in the crime?

I do believe she didn't kill with her hands, but unfortunately her subsequent testimony does infer she covered up for the person who did. That could be a very interesting new story indeed!

My theory of "why" is because she inherited the modern equivalent of about TEN MILLION DOLLARS. That is motivation!!!!! If you lived your life with a miser, in a crappy neighborhood, and knew your old man was worth ten Million, AND that there was a chance you may inherit NONE of it if your step mother got it all, wow, powerful motivation.

[Curryong]

It seems to me that Andrew's faith at least was little more than skin deep. He refused to attend Church any more after a quarrel erupted between him and a Church elder over the paying of some taxes he was supposed to cough up.

After her trial and incarceration on remand Lizzie attended Church for a short while and then stopped, probably because of the ostracism she experienced. On the other hand, Emma apparently hadn't been an enthusiastic participant in Church activities before the trial, but after it attended Church and became a close friend of the Reverend Buck and his family.

In an age in which many Church and Chapel activities merged with middle-class people's social lives, Lizzie's enthusiastic membership of several organisations within the umbrella of the Church wasn't unusual. There would have been few other opportunities for a single woman to participate in doing something 'worthy' and respectable.

Lizzie couldn't have left her home, however bad it got. Her father would have disapproved, her Church minister and friends would have been shocked and attempted to dissuade her. Living away from parents just wasn't something respectable single women did in those days, especially in towns where the family was known.

She (and her sister) were totally dependent on Andrew financially. Her allowance could very well have been stopped, but even if it wasn't, $4.00 a week wouldn't go very far with rent to pay. She was not qualified in any profession like teaching, and I can't see Lizzie getting an ordinary job.

Sorry, irina, but looking through Lizzie's muddled and, in some instances, self-serving witness statements and Inquest testimony I can't see any indication she was covering up for anyone else. In several places she contradicts her own earlier statements and in others (regarding her movements and conversation at various times on that morning) she is contradicted by Bridget.

[irina]

It might be a better discussion under a different heading but I have all sorts of curiosity about what Lizzie and Emma's other options may have been. A part of me thinks Andrew the self-made man may have been very pleased if his daughters were in some form of business. I wonder if when Andrew bought back the Ferry St. house, if he castigated his daughters for not making a profit an the venture and if he made any unfortunate statements like, "You two have failed at something so simple...don't expect another penny from me, now or ever!" Didn't that buy-back happen a month or so before the murders? Like I say, if Lizzie did it I don't see simple, coldhearted greed. I have known women who were greedy that way and they were totally wrapped up in themselves~everything was about them. Like I say, if it was ever proved that Lizzie did it I would want to know exactly WHY.

On another part of this forum under "Newspaper Archive Articles", posted on 6/24/2011 is a newspaper interview with Alice Russell in 1929. Interesting reading. Says a lot and says nothing at the same time.

[irina]

Maybe I think Lizzie wasn't so restricted because I am a product of the west. Women had more independence. They worked as hard as men in the pioneer wagon trains. Women worked as hard as men on homesteads and anywhere else they ended up. It's hard for me to visualize Lizzie with no options beyond murder. She should have been a mail-order bride to some fellow out west. That would have been a solution!

[Curryong]

Yes, Lizzie and Emma made a fuss over the Whitehead home going to Abby's family so Andrew deeded them the duplex at Ferry St. For some reason, and it's always been speculated about, he bought it back from 'the girls' a few weeks before the murders. The reason given by most writers is that neither Emma or Lizzie proved enthusiastic landlords. Indeed, when they inherited Andrew's property and portfolio, they left the heavy lifting to lawyer Jennings and manager Cook.

I think Andrew would have been overjoyed if either of his girls had shown business nous or an interest in property owning or anything of that nature. The fact that neither girl went to college has been discussed over the years, but in fact in Emma's youth and even in Lizzie's, it was fairly unusual unless the family needed them to make a living.

The big push for middleclass female college education occurred in the 1890's, a bit late for Lizzie and Emma. In fact, although they were great readers, neither of them seem to have been overly academic. The options for middleclass females of their day to make a living were severely limited.

I'll take a look at the Alice Russell interview. Thanks for pointing it out.

PS Just seen your last post. Yes, pioneer women did work, extremely hard didn't they, both in the West and here in Australia. In pioneering societies class didn't matter quite so much, though other Victorian values remained. I just think unfortunately respectability and middleclass values seem to have ruled Emma and Lizzie's lives.

[Curryong]

By the way, twinsrwe, I am so sorry for not posting thanks for your looking up Mr and Mrs Charles Holmes several posts back and providing all those reports on her homecoming. Very interesting. And the band playing 'All Lang Syne' with over 2,000 people waiting! Wonder whether they were pro-Lizzie, anti, or just curious? Probably the last! I do think that public opinion can turn so swiftly, and who knows what drives it!

Anyhow, Yes, that is exactly who it was. Stupid of me to forget it! (Incidentally, who was Mrs Jubb, another of the party?) Mrs Holmes was one of the hand maidens to the bereaved orphan that Thursday afternoon and hung around Emma 'like a bad smell', as we say in Australia, afterwards. I don't know whether the couple were part of Lizzie's social circle in the years after the trial though.

PS I've found Mrs Jubb! She was the wife of the minister of the First Congregationalist Church, Fall River. Her husband was one of the two clergymen (the other was the Rev Buck) who were great supporters of Lizzie.

[debbiediablo]

My theory of "why" is because she inherited the modern equivalent of about TEN MILLION DOLLARS. That is motivation!!!!! If you lived your life with a miser, in a crappy neighborhood, and knew your old man was worth ten Million, AND that there was a chance you may inherit NONE of it if your step mother got it all, wow, powerful motivation.

I agree, except I think there's also a powerful desire to make sure that "Mrs. Borden" and moreover Mrs. Borden's family didn't cash in on Andrew's estate. His net worth converts to about $12,000,000 in today's money. In this state if a person dies intestate, the spouse gets 1/3 and the remaining 2/3 is divided between the children. That would be $4,000,000 each for Abby, Emma and Lizzie. If it were split evenly between wife and children, Abby would get $6,000,000 and the sisters $3,000,000 each. That's plenty enough to live well for the remainder of all their lives. I seriously doubt that Andrew intended to leave his daughters to live as paupers. This may have been about wanting some or even all of the estate, but I also see it as being about not wanting to share with Abby or her family.

[Curryong]

I agree, debbie. The term 'I wouldn't spit on you if you were dying of thirst in the desert' come to mind when contemplating Lizzie's (and Emma's) attitude towards Abby and her family!

[PossumPie]

My theory of "why" is because she inherited the modern equivalent of about TEN MILLION DOLLARS. That is motivation!!!!! If you lived your life with a miser, in a crappy neighborhood, and knew your old man was worth ten Million, AND that there was a chance you may inherit NONE of it if your step mother got it all, wow, powerful motivation.

I agree, except I think there's also a powerful desire to make sure that "Mrs. Borden" and moreover Mrs. Borden's family didn't cash in on Andrew's estate. His net worth converts to about $12,000,000 in today's money. In this state if a person dies intestate, the spouse gets 1/3 and the remaining 2/3 is divided between the children. That would be $4,000,000 each for Abby, Emma and Lizzie. If it were split evenly between wife and children, Abby would get $6,000,000 and the sisters $3,000,000 each. That's plenty enough to live well for the remainder of all their lives. I seriously doubt that Andrew intended to leave his daughters to live as paupers. This may have been about wanting some or even all of the estate, but I also see it as being about not wanting to share with Abby or her family.

We discussed this back in January...MODERN Massachusetts law is a split with the spouse, the rest divided among the kids. Someone called me out on this, and try as I might, I couldn't find what the law was back in the 1800's. Even if it was the same, any estate over about 100 thousand dollars almost immediately went to probate, was fought over for years before being actually divided up. Lizzie may have worried she be too old to enjoy it by then. Plus, no matter if you believe her innocent or guilty, everyone agrees she disliked Abby. It would have made her angry that Abby got more than she did.

[Aamartin]

Remember-- they also inherited income producing assets.

[irina]

I have been trying to think out what would have been the inheritance pattern if Andrew had died intestate. I rather thought it might work out the same as the modern law. What would be the common law practice in the US? I don't think we ever had archaic primageniture (I didn't spell that right but I don't want to open "Black's Law Dictionary) laws though in some states at some times women could not own property on their own. Apparently not an issue in Massachusetts.

If I was Lizzie I would have become the most successful slum lord in Fall River and let Daddy deal with it.

[debbiediablo]

Totally agree with Possum, and as much as Lizzie disliked her step-mother, I'm guessing she disliked her step-mother's 'freeloading relatives' even more.

[twinsrwe]

By the way, twinsrwe, I am so sorry for not posting thanks for your looking up Mr and Mrs Charles Holmes several posts back and providing all those reports on her homecoming. Very interesting. And the band playing 'All Lang Syne' with over 2,000 people waiting! Wonder whether they were pro-Lizzie, anti, or just curious? Probably the last! I do think that public opinion can turn so swiftly, and who knows what drives it!

Anyhow, Yes, that is exactly who it was. Stupid of me to forget it! (Incidentally, who was Mrs Jubb, another of the party?) Mrs Holmes was one of the hand maidens to the bereaved orphan that Thursday afternoon and hung around Emma 'like a bad smell', as we say in Australia, afterwards. I don't know whether the couple were part of Lizzie's social circle in the years after the trial though.

PS I've found Mrs Jubb! She was the wife of the minister of the First Congregationalist Church, Fall River. Her husband was one of the two clergymen (the other was the Rev Buck) who were great supporters of Lizzie.

It’s OK. You’re welcome for the information I posted. It was fun for me to do the research on Lizzie’s homecoming party, since I didn’t recall it.

Regarding the song: "Auld Lang Syne" is an extremely old Scottish song that was first written down in the 1700s. This song is from a poem, written by Robert Burns in a dialect called, Lowland Scots, spoken in Scotland in the 18th century. Robert Burns is the person whose transcription got the most attention, so the song is associated with him.

Auld Lang Syne (with lyrics)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acxnmaVTlZA

Lizzie must have been very please that this song was sung at her homecoming party, since she was such a big fan of Scottish literature, poems, etc.

I found the following links quite interesting:

http://www.themorgan.org/exhibitions/on ... dLangSyne/

The literal meaning of "Auld Lang Syne" is "Old Long Since," or "Long, Long Ago." The lyrics talk about raising a toast to days gone by and all the joyous adventures embarked upon between friends.

http://folkmusic.about.com/od/folksongs ... ngSyne.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auld_Lang_Syne

http://www.scotland.org/features/the-hi ... lang-syne/

I agree, public opinion can turn so quickly!!! I think a lot of public opinion is formed via gossip and rumors.

[Curryong]

'Auld Lang Syne' used to be played a lot more years ago than it is now, especially in Australia. It was played on the quayside as the ship left Capetown, South Africa on my way to Australia and you'd often hear it at wedding receptions as the bride and groom made their departure.

(Thanks for the info and links!)

Apparently Burns Night used to be very well celebrated here among those of Scottish descent (such as Lizzie) with haggis and a drop of the whisky. Lizzie must have felt a huge bond with Scotland all her life and of course later Emma visited it too. Isn't it funny how you can feel instantly at home in some countries while others, however beautiful, leave you cold?
I think Lizzie was wise to stay the night at Marianna Holmes's house on her home-coming all the same! I don't think thousands of people outside in the street would be conducive to sleep later on!

[MysteryReader]

There is a TV ad for Vegemite called 'Happy little Vegemites' on You Tube, from the 1950's, long before I came to Australia. There's a saying in Australia "Well, you're a happy little vegemiter, aren't you!" whenever a person appears particularly happy and cheerful.

When I came here and confessed to not liking Vegemite very much it was taken for granted that 'Well, people not born here wouldn't, would they!' It is all linked with being an Aussie, like loving sport and the beach! My three children were born here and of course they like it!

It's ironic that it's now owned by an international company. When the company put cheese in a particular variety of Vegemite and called it I think, Cheesimite, it made the news and everyone was disapproving. That name soon vanished!

It is nice on toast with melted cheese.

Off Topic: My mother-in-law is Australian and loves that.. me, ick!

[irina]

"National Geographic" had a small article recently about military meals used in the field. (MREs~Meals Ready to Eat) They are supposed to be a taste of home for the soldier who is away and they have special things that relate to the country. U.S. MREs for example also contain Skittles (candy) and a tiny bottle of Tobasco (hot pepper) sauce.

You can probably see where I'm going with this. Aussies get a tube of Vegemite. (Italians get a little pouch of cordial. Their MRE is the only one to contain alcohol. )

[snokkums]

Yes, I think that she did it.

[MysteryReader]

"National Geographic" had a small article recently about military meals used in the field. (MREs~Meals Ready to Eat) They are supposed to be a taste of home for the soldier who is away and they have special things that relate to the country. U.S. MREs for example also contain Skittles (candy) and a tiny bottle of Tobasco (hot pepper) sauce.

You can probably see where I'm going with this. Aussies get a tube of Vegemite. (Italians get a little pouch of cordial. Their MRE is the only one to contain alcohol. )

I never knew that they had things that relate to their country!