Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Wasn't poor old Bill's excuse, (according to his supporters,) that, because of his conservative Southern Baptist background, what he and Monica got up to didn't actually constitute sex as he knew it!

Now, if only Lizzie could have come up with something on the same lines for her actions on that Thursday...

I can handle folks thinking Lizzie is guilty of double axe murder...but do you really have to go so far as to compare her with a POLITICIAN? One who lied and had as much difficulty with what the definition of is is, as Lizzie did with the word "cordial"?

Sorry, Irina. A quirky sense of humour, I suppose!

twinsrwe wrote: As far as I know, there is nothing in testimony in regards to Andrew being surprised that his wife received a note, therefore Abby receiving a note was a common occurrence.
You're apology is accepted.

The only person (or persons of you think Lizzie is innocent) who knew what Andrew thought about the note are Lizzie and the the killer...Lizzie or someone else. Someone help me here: I'm thinking there's a point where Bridget hedges a little in regard to how many notes of this type Abby received.

debbiediablo wrote:...
Yes. Yes! Yes!!! This way of thinking is part of Lizzie's pathology...not much different than Bill Clinton staring with absolute sincerity into the tv cameras...saying, "I did not have sex with that woman," knowing full that he had, and probably knowing full well that the DNA proof was on Monica Lewinsky's dress.

Did Mr. Bill Clinton really say "that woman", instead of "Ms. Monica Lewinsky"? Scandalous language from the mouth of a president, IMO.

(P.S.: ...Lizzie's pathology... it's a speculative pathology, isn't it? And one difference between Bill and Lizzie, a great difference: Bill eventually admitted that he did have sex with "that woman" (his own language); but Lizzie, she never admmited to have killed anyone, never.)

Franz wrote:

debbiediablo wrote:...
Yes. Yes! Yes!!! This way of thinking is part of Lizzie's pathology...not much different than Bill Clinton staring with absolute sincerity into the tv cameras...saying, "I did not have sex with that woman," knowing full that he had, and probably knowing full well that the DNA proof was on Monica Lewinsky's dress.

Did Mr. Bill Clinton really say "that woman", instead of "Ms. Monica Lewinsky"? Scandalous language from the mouth of a president, IMO.

(P.S.: ...Lizzie's pathology... it's a speculative pathology, isn't it? And one difference between Bill and Lizzie, a great difference: Bill eventually admitted that he did have sex with "that woman" (his own language); but Lizzie, she never admmited to have killed anyone, never.)

I slightly misquoted; Bill Clinton really said, "I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinsky."
Hear him lie here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiIP_KDQmXs

The reason Clinton ended up admitting to anything (thus the big brouhaha about exactly what constitutes sexual relations) is Lewinsky told her friend Linda Tripp all about it. Tripp told a literary agent who was her friend. The agent advised Linda to secretly tape record the conversations which she did, after which Tripp turned over the tapes to independent counsel who was investigating the incident. Lewinsky would've lied for Clinton, but there was no way to refute the tapes.

The difference in Lizzie's case is the victims were dead, not out telling friends all about how they were bludgeoned to death...while being tape recorded by someone they trusted.

But Bridget could have been offered a book deal and been secretly taped for posterity.

Hatchet Job: The View from the Attic Room by Bridget Sullivan

Or 'Hatchet Job: Truth, Lies and Videotape!!', (if there really was something going on with Andrew and the maids.) Poor Bridget. She need never have worked again, not for the Josiah Hunts or anyone else. If only she had been born a hundred years later!

Interesting thought: now if Bridget were the killer and three steps ahead of everyone, she could say something about going to Mrs. Whitehead's to find Abby...fully expecting Lizzie to blurt out that maybe they should look in the house first. Perhaps because Lizzie heard 'something' upstairs that was Abby being murdered, not Abby arriving home.

Just saying.

hi curryong! long time no see . i hope you come back soon.

Curryong wrote: As I was looking in the Lizzie Borden Quarterly as I sometimes do, I noticed this yesterday in LBQ 'Anonymous Letter' Jan 2000.

Apparently '16 months before the murders Abby's mother's remains were exhumed for reburial, at some expense, in the Oak Grove Cemetery'.

Two things, Abby no doubt did this for convenience so she and Mrs Whitehead could visit their mother's grave easily. Oak Grove was the largest and I would guess most prestigious of the Fall River cemeteries. If mrs Gray also was given a tombstone, then as now, the total bill would have come to a large sum. It wouldn't be Abby paying, or her half-sister, I think. So, another black mark for Abby recorded by the Borden sisters!

ooh, very interesting! yes, that would have been another large black mark for abby, in the sisters' book.

it does seem strange to me that abby did this, after so many years. why then? it definitely would have been andrew footing the (substantial) bill. mrs whitehead wouldn't have had the money to do it, and neither would abby.

between this and andrew buying the half-house -- behind the sisters' backs -- and lizzie's comment to someone about not knowing if they'd end up with any of andrew's estate, i can see why they were getting antsy.

from your other post, farther down:

The daylight robbery, in which Abby's jewellery was stolen, occurred not many months after that.

curiouser and curiouser! hm.

Curryong wrote:Emma wasn't asked the question in general conversation but in the course of a trial in which her beloved sister was being tried for murder. If you look through the whole of Emma's testimony you can see she is trying her hardest to get Lizzie off and her answers are framed with that object in view. I don't really see anything sinister in it, just a sincere effort by one sister to get the other seen in the best light possible. Including Lizzie in the answer was purely unconscious and part of that process.

i see what bobo is saying, and i too think it odd. emma was being asked about her (dodgy) relationship with abby, and for some reason she included lizzie in her answer, which wasn't exactly helpful to lizzie.

I'm afraid I don't believe in the incest theory. There was never any hint, as far as we know, of it in town gossip. Lizzie's friends indicated that in later years Lizzie would sometimes speak fondly of her father (though no mention of Abby!)

i don't either. while i think something was decidedly off in lizzie and andrew's relationship, i don't think it was actual incest. although, who knows, maybe it was. anything's possible in this nutty case. i don't know that there would have been town gossip about it. in fact, i think it unlikely. these things weren't talked about, to begin with, and how would it have gotten out, unless lizzie or emma confided in someone?

i've never before heard that lizzie used to speak fondly of her father in her later years. very interesting!

irina wrote:As with everything in the case it doesn't hold together all the way. The other part of the note story is that Abby is also marketing for "meat" for lunch. That says Abby planned to do the marketing AND visit the sick friend AND return in time for lunch. (This might make a lot of sense in that Andrew may have/likely have told his wife Uncle John was coming back for lunch and it makes sense that Abby would buy some fresh "meat" for lunch.) Plus Lizzie called Bridget so fast after Andrew was killed that if she had a major plan, she didn't carry through. Even if she was too overcome by emotion from killing her father to go down town for an alibi, she would have done better for herself if all she could do was stagger into the street and pass out.

hello irina!

that is an interesting point about abby going to the market for meat for lunch. the two stories seem conflicting in a way, or at cross purposes, i should say. if she were supposed to be rushing off to help a sick friend, it seems to me she wouldn't have known how long she'd have to be there, and therefore if she'd be delayed for lunch, with the meat. i'd think anyone who was sick enough to send for someone would have been pretty sick, especially in those days. she'd have had to do the marketing after visiting the sick friend, on the way home, as it was a warm day and she was buying meat.

if lizzie was lying about the note, why would she have included the bit about abby going to the market for food for lunch? abby being off to attend to a sick friend would prevent andrew from looking for her, or bridget. but if she was supposed to be back in time for lunch, it wouldn't have bought her much more time. unless lizzie knew she was going to off andrew before then, in which case it wouldn't matter.

i do think andrew most likely told both abby and bridget uncle john was returning for lunch. bridget did the preparing and cooking, so she'd need to know how much to prepare, and abby would want to know too.