Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Curryong wrote:There was a thick carpet on the floor wasn't there, and maybe she just sort of slumped to the floor rather than fell over like a log, though she did injure her face when she fell? I'm sure I've read old threads here that discussed the noise Abby might or might not have made as she hit the floor.

Another possibility for Abby's bruises is having her face repeatedly pounded into the floor from the force of the hatchet. Or both the fall and the pounding. There's no proof, and it may make no difference whatsoever except as to how much noise she made if she went over like an Oak. Her arms were above her head, but does that mean she fell straight forward? Maybe she had her arms up to protect her head. Or perhaps she was trying to pull herself away from the assailant.

In extensive testimony I think by Bowen, he claimed Abby's arms were underneath her body or chest.

Except for the pattern of bruising I wonder if a male assailant didn't punch Abby in the face. If Abby ducked the first time or resisted an intruder he may simply have decked her with his fist. Lizzie would not likely have done that. Some of the bruising, and this was also briefly mentioned in testimony, could have resulted from livor mortis as blood settled into the lowest portions of her face. Thus "bruising" would appear more extensive than it was.

I can't answer for Possum and I hope he posts on this, but I think we went over the bruising on Abby's face (was it in the All About Abby thread) and the question of a punch was brought up? I believe he said that the bruising was undoubtedly due to her having fallen without throwing her arms out to protect herself and therefore her face had hit the floor.

Curryong wrote:I can't answer for Possum and I hope he posts on this, but I think we went over the bruising on Abby's face (was it in the All About Abby thread and the question of a punch was brought up? I believe he said that the bruising was undoubtedly due to her having fallen without throwing her arms out to protect herself and therefore her face had hit the floor.

Yes, that's what he said. I'm going by the photos that show her arms more upward (although not straight upward like "reach for the sky"..." but upward and underneath her upper body. )Think about the position a person would need to be in to land like that when falling. I see her either getting her hands up to 'almost' catch herself or she has her hands behind her head for protection as she flees which causes her to fall face down...and then the killer grabs her by the hair which elevates the head and causes her arms to end up exactly where they are in the picture. Then again we don't know how much moving was done post mortem.

The possible physical acts of the assailant can also be considered for strength~Lizzie capable or not. Hair grabbing might be a woman thing. If the head was elevated off the floor via hair, well the human head weight a general certain amount. If that is the way it was, would that be a Lizzie thing or a man thing? Women can have a great deal of strength so anything is possible but maybe there is a predominance of acts that require physical strength?

many people have done a test at the house and had someone topple to the floor in the guest room while others were downstairs, outside, etc. Mixed results. Some heard it, some didn't. But to be fair-- they knew a sound might come and may have been paying attention to it.

My house, built in 1883 is very solid and substantial. High ceilings and hardwood floors. I would hear something of any bulk at all falling upstairs. No matter where I was. I can't hear the TV from the living room while in the kitchen-- or really anyone calling out to me from the living room if I am in the kitchen-- but a thump from upstairs? I could hear in any room, including the basement-- which is more like a cellar like the Borden house.

Would you be able to hear something falling upstairs, Anthony, if you were, say, outside cleaning a downstairs window on the opposite side of the house? If Bridget had decided to have a bit of a leisurely gossip to the Kelly maid, leaning against the fence and perhaps the two of them were laughing, Abby could be slumping to the floor in the guest room in the guest room and Bridget wouldn't know a thing.

Far out Anthony...Peeeeeeeeaaaaace out, brother....that is like soooooo groovy.

Curryong wrote:Would you be able to hear something falling upstairs, Anthony, if you were, say, outside cleaning a downstairs window on the opposite side of the house? If Bridget had decided to have a bit of a leisurely gossip to the Kelly maid, leaning against the fence and perhaps the two of them were laughing, Abby could be slumping to the floor in the guest room in the guest room and Bridget wouldn't know a thing.

No-- but if Lizzie was inside my house at the time-- she would hear it

Dr Bowen's testimony at the trial when shown the two photographs taken in the guest room at about 3:35 pm that Thursday afternoon. Trial Lizzie Borden page 309.

Q Will you examine them and say in what respect, if any, the position of Mrs Borden differed from that shown in the photograph?

A. This one differs by being nearer the bed. Mrs Borden is lying nearer the bed in this picture than the dressing case, which is not a fact....

Q Will you look at the photograph where the bed is drawn away and tell us in what respect the position of Mrs Borden differs in that photograph, if it differs at all?

A. I think her arms were a little lower down than are represented here--slightly lower, below the breast.

Q About how much lower?

A. Six inches, I should say.

Q They were lower at the time or lower in the photograph?

A. Lower at the time.

Q In other respects is her position on the floor the same as it was when you first found her?

A. As far as I can see, yes sir.

Challenge by Robinson, who later cross examines Bowen....

A by Bowen as to feet projecting below the end of the bed. Bowen estimates this being about a foot and a half to two feet.

Q How did she then lie?

A. She lay directly on her face with her hands under her.

There's then some testimony about horizontal lines on a sheet.
Bowen then remarks 'There was no particular angle of the arm up this way. The elbow was nearly at right angles.'

debbiediablo wrote:Far out Anthony...Peeeeeeeeaaaaace out, brother....that is like soooooo groovy.

I collect peace signs! I even recently got 'inked' for the first (and last) time in 49 years!

You'll have to send us a photo! Love the gif. I have GOT to change mine!

Perhaps Lizzie suffered from selective deafness where Abby was concerned?. On hearing a resounding thump in the guest room--"Mrs B. must have fainted due to the heat. Oh, well.." Gets on with her sewing in her bedroom.

Curryong's quote of the testimony says a lot. Her arms were lower, near her breasts. She did not have time to scream out, raise her arms up to her face to protect it, or do much else. The first blow had to render her unconscious or she would have screamed, ruining the chances of the killer to go undetected. Sometimes "coup/counter-coup" injuries to the skull and brain cause post mortem bruising due the the trauma to the blood vessels of the face after a severe blow. "raccoon eyes" two black eyes often is present after head trauma.

Bridget used a cloth and stick to wash the windows, then threw a dipper full of water up on them. Back in the day of single paned windows, this would have caused some noise inside.

People have repeatedly experimented in the Borden home to see if the sound of a collapsing person can be heard downstairs. It really depends HOW you fall. If you collapse in a heap, then fall forward, there is little sound even at the bottom of the steps. But if you fall full weight like a tree cut down, it rattles the china and can be heard. This doesn't explain anything about Lizzie hearing/not hearing anything, we don't know how forcefully Abby fell.

There is no evidence that it took much strength to kill either Borden. A hatchet or ax is going to kill-even in the hands of a child. The murders DO show endurance...to hack that many times in a row with any force shows much hatred/emotion and would be exhausting to whoever did it. This is yet another reason I don't believe it was a stranger. A stranger would have killed and been done. There is no reason to be so brutal an in fact would increase your chances of getting caught. The Mafia would execute people with a tiny, wimpy, .22 pistol shot to the back of the head. It was quiet and efficient, and Dead is dead. An angry husband might kill with a powerful, loud shotgun blast to the head. Passion/hatred. Not only dead, but disfigured, savaged, "punished" Even if Lizzie did NOT kill them, this case has "domestic dispute" written all over it. Yes, the actual killer who dealt the blows knew the Bordens intimately, and had a lot of pent up hatred.

PossumPie wrote:An angry husband might kill with a powerful, loud shotgun blast to the head. Passion/hatred. Not only dead, but disfigured, savaged, "punished" Even if Lizzie did NOT kill them, this case has "domestic dispute" written all over it. Yes, the actual killer who dealt the blows knew the Bordens intimately, and had a lot of pent up hatred.

I've been saying this...but haven't said it better. Everything about this screams domestic dispute.

debbiediablo wrote:

PossumPie wrote:An angry husband might kill with a powerful, loud shotgun blast to the head. Passion/hatred. Not only dead, but disfigured, savaged, "punished" Even if Lizzie did NOT kill them, this case has "domestic dispute" written all over it. Yes, the actual killer who dealt the blows knew the Bordens intimately, and had a lot of pent up hatred.

I've been saying this...but haven't said it better. Everything about this screams domestic dispute.

I agree. The number of blows Abby and Andrew received indicates that the killer was in a rage/hatred. I just can't see an intruder holding onto that kind of rage/hatred for the period of time involved between the two killings. I also believe that the killer's primary target was Abby.

I agree too. Thanks Possum for confirming that the facial injuries were due to Abby's face hitting the carpet. That first blow must have been a savage one, and sent her semi-conscious to the floor, with her arms under her substantial chest.. What does Dr Bowen's statement about her elbow at right angles mean? Does it mean it was sticking out away from the body? Some of Bowen's testimony is frustrating, as he apparently demonstrated in court where the arms actually ended up under the body but we of course can't see it! Oh, for a TV camera!