dead before the axe?

[Allen]

Well, all I can say is...chloroform is known to have been used, whether you believe it viable or not, in the commission of many crimes where it did not cause the direct death of the victim. A means to aid the killer in committing the murder, but not the murder weapon. It was used to subdue them in the same way handcuffs or using a rope would be. Why not just gas them with it and get it over with? Because poison is a woman's weapon. Poison would point to Lizzie. Lizzie was known to have bought that particular substance by a witness that knew her. I do not think its any more complicated a theory than adding an accomplice, or two, or three. Or Emma racing back from Fairhaven to commit the murders and racing back. Uncle John making a special trip to stay at the house to make sure he could go to Swansea to pick up some eggs.Those are all viable theories, using a substance known to subdue isn't? But agree to disagree.

[Allen]

As far as the question of whether or not Physicians who used it attempting to murder their patients.... My husband has an office full of "laughing gas" which he uses appropriately--- In the wrong hands it most certainly coud be a weapon!

I think you missed my meaning. I meant simply that if a doctor could use it to knock the patient out, without murdering them, why could it not have been used in the same way by a killer?

[theebmonique]

I just think it would be weird for someone to try to knock the victim out with chloroform...then hack the hell out of them with an axe. If they were going to be so violent about it anyway...why mess with the chloroform ? Besides...wouldn't using chloroform put the assailant at risk from inhaling the fumes as well ?


Tracy...

[Kat]

"Well, all I can say is...chloroform is known to have been used, whether you believe it viable or not, in the commission of many crimes where it did not cause the direct death of the victim. A means to aid the killer in committing the murder, but not the murder weapon. It was used to subdue them in the same way handcuffs or using a rope would be."--Allen

You've got my attention here. Are there cases of this of which you know? The HHHolmes murder was the only one I could think of. He chloroformed his partner and I think then burned him to death. Maybe strangled first. The chemicals were meant to show why there was a fire.

Yes, FHG, you are probably correct in your assessment of what that 1892 writer meant when he said the clothes were not much bloodied.

[Harry]

This article substaniates the possibility of chloroform being used to render victims unconcious before another method of killing is used.

http://www.general-anaesthesia.com/chlo ... urder.html

Not that I necessarily believe that it happened in the Borden case but it has happened before. I think you could rule it out only if you believe Lizzie was the one who performed the actual killings. Lizzie would not be experienced with its use and could have killed either victim with the incorrect amount and time it was applied.

The crimes to me just appear to be too violent for such a pre-attack. Also, the risk of the victim resisting the attacker is huge unless they were almost instantly overwhelmed and restrained (at least with Abby) with necessary force. Could a 130(?) lb. Lizzie restrain a 200 lb. Abby?

Also ran across this fiction article involving none other than Sherlock Holmes:

“Watson,” he called out. “Keep Mrs Bateman away from the scene. There are some sights a lady should not be asked to look upon. Lestrade, you must put out an alert for the apprehension and arrest of Mr Bateman. His greed has been his undoing. He has obviously rendered his father in law insensible with the use of the chloroform. He then ensured that the poor man came to a sticky end by bludgeoning him to death with a stick of Kendal rock."

http://www.shadowpoetry.com/members/stories/murder.html

.

[doug65oh]

great story there Harry - particularly the line about breaking that aristocratic nose with a well-aimed fist.

Reading that made me think of another old proverb Teddy Roosevelt was fond of: "Speak softly, and carry a big stick."

The question you raise is (as Holmes would surely have said) "most singular" as it regards Abby. It's very difficult to envision Lizzie obtaining the proper position (using any one of the supposed positions Abby was in at the time of her murder) and sufficient force - as would almost have to be necessary to assure that the "soft speech" of the chloroform took immediate effect.

Then too, there's the obvious pattern of overkill in both cases - where soft speech was replaced by the proverbial "big stick."

[Harry]

As long as we're speculating let's toss this in:

Could Lizzie have obtained chloroform from Dr. Bowen? The reason I ask is that Dr. Bowen made a statement (see the witness statements, page 19) which has never, at least to my mind, been satisfactorily resolved:

"Dr. Bowen stopped me [Officer Harrington] on the street, and was very anxious to know what Mr. Knowlton meant when be referred to having found another agent of death. He was very nervous when talking of this I told him I did not recollect of any such statement in his plea."

What was Bowen thinking when he asked that? And why was he nervous?

The only thing I can think of is that Dr. Bowen was said to have thought Abby had died of fright. He denied that he said that. This also would not account for Andrew.

[Audrey]

"Dr. Bowen stopped me [Officer Harrington] on the street, and was very anxious to know what Mr. Knowlton meant when be referred to having found another agent of death. He was very nervous when talking of this I told him I did not recollect of any such statement in his plea."

What was Bowen thinking when he asked that? And why was he nervous?

.

Interesting..

It does sound as though he may have been eager to find out what was known by the police... Was he worried about getting himself into hot water or did he want to run back and report to the Borden Camp what he might have learned?

[doug65oh]

Either of those is entirely possible. It's quite frustrating to realize how little we know of ol' Seabury and what actually made him tick, so to speak.

[Allen]

As long as we're speculating let's toss this in:

Could Lizzie have obtained chloroform from Dr. Bowen? The reason I ask is that Dr. Bowen made a statement (see the witness statements, page 19) which has never, at least to my mind, been satisfactorily resolved:

"Dr. Bowen stopped me [Officer Harrington] on the street, and was very anxious to know what Mr. Knowlton meant when be referred to having found another agent of death. He was very nervous when talking of this I told him I did not recollect of any such statement in his plea."

What was Bowen thinking when he asked that? And why was he nervous?

The only thing I can think of is that Dr. Bowen was said to have thought Abby had died of fright. He denied that he said that. This also would not account for Andrew.

Yes, it does seem like an odd statement. Raises my eyebrows. Even if you do not believe in the chloroform theory, that would still leave you to wonder what the motive behind that statement is. Did Bowen give Lizzie the chloroform if she used it? Thats an interesting idea. During my research on chloroform I found that there were also cases where it had been abused. It was used as a recreational drug for the purpose of the high. One case of this is Horace Wells. I also found a case that lead me to believe if the chloroformed soaked rag were held over the face it might not produce any visible outward signs (burning of the skin etc.) If it had wouldn't they have immediately raised some questions as to their origin?

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=335012002

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=416812002

http://news.scotsman.com/scotland.cfm?id=948032004

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/scotland/1938437.stm
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://news.scotsman.com/scotland.cfm?id=1160922003

[FairhavenGuy]

I always tookk Bowen's comment about another "agent of death" to mean another hatchet, in the verbose language of the day.

[Kat]

Thanks for all the links.
They are all on the same crime: a killing by chloroform.
Do you have the many murders to support the contention that there have been crimes where the chloroform was used to incapacitate the victim before another weapon was used, as claimed previously?

[Audrey]

I have seen a lot of movies where chloroform was used to subdue someone to kidnap them or allow some madman to use them for his own sick purposes...

I was thinking about Kat's contention that it is 2 different forms of murder and decided she is 100% right...

Allen-- think of it this way. If Lizzie did use a substance to subdue them why not do something like just hold a pillow over their face after?

[Haulover]

***"Dr. Bowen stopped me [Officer Harrington] on the street, and was very anxious to know what Mr. Knowlton meant when be referred to having found another agent of death. He was very nervous when talking of this I told him I did not recollect of any such statement in his plea."***

i wonder if this merely refers to the finding of a book on poison in the house?

[Harry]

Here's a web site for a 1912, Paola, (Miami County) KS, double murder where the victims were bludgeoned to death in their bed. It is thought that they were chloroformed first. Be prepared to hear music, so if your sound is turned up high ... you have been forewarned.

http://www.millersparanormalresearch.co ... endish.htm

Again, I don't believe that it was used in the Borden case, but it is not out of the realm of possibility.

BTW, the main page of that site has some interesting links to the Villisca murders. Nice photo of the house.

http://www.millersparanormalresearch.com/

[Harry]

i wonder if this merely refers to the finding of a book on poison in the house?

Interesting thought Eugene. Could he have loaned Lizzie a book on poisons?

Part of the legend has a book opened to the page on prussic acid. Offhand, I can't remember the source. Such an incident was never offered at the trials.

[diana]

From A Private Disgrace:

"When Hosea Knowlton, the District Attorney, first entered that house, his eye fell on a book lying on one of the small draped tables in the sitting room. A reader, as the Bordens were not, he picked it up idly. It was a book of household hints; its spine was broken and it fell open at a section on poisons, in fact at an article on prussic acid. Prussic acid works instantaneously and smells like almonds. Lizzie, as we shall see presently, was in no state of mind to cover her tracks just then. Possibly Mrs. Borden, at her daily dusting, had also noticed that her book of household hints had a broken spine." (pp.63,64)

It seems pretty clear that Lincoln took this from Edmund Pearson's Trial of Lizzie Borden which states:

"When Mr Knowlton first entered the Borden house, he chanced to pick up a large book. It dealt with recipes, drugs and medicines. It fell open in his hand---the back was half broken---to an article on prussic acid." (pp.88,89)

Don't know Pearson's source, though.

[Allen]

Allen-- think of it this way. If Lizzie did use a substance to subdue them why not do something like just hold a pillow over their face after?

You think it would be easier to hold a pillow over someone's face than a rag or a cloth? Well if they were unconcious, yes it would be fairly easy to kill them that way. But, I think it was a crime with more feeling behind it than a simple smothering. There was a reason an axe was used, not some other weapon.

[Allen]

I understand, and expect, the fact that not everyone will agree with all of my theories. It is to be expected that not everyone can always agree on everything. What is the saying about pleasing some of the people some of the time? I also respect the fact that you do not agree, and your right to your own opinion. As I would hope you would do the same for me.

[Haulover]

***"When Mr Knowlton first entered the Borden house, he chanced to pick up a large book. It dealt with recipes, drugs and medicines. It fell open in his hand---the back was half broken---to an article on prussic acid." (pp.88,89)***

thanks, diana -- that's the source i was remembering, though i know nothing more about it either.

probably, this must remain apocryphal.

if knowlton had ever had any such evidence about poison -- he would have dropped that from his case anyway because of the ruling about bence?

does anybody who has knowlton papers know of it there?

[Allen]

Thanks for all the links.
They are all on the same crime: a killing by chloroform.
Do you have the many murders to support the contention that there have been crimes where the chloroform was used to incapacitate the victim before another weapon was used, as claimed previously?

http://www.mrsc.org/mc/courts/supreme/1 ... 2d0577.htm

http://www.ardemgaz.com/ShowStoryPrev.a ... ID=Ar00104

http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/Newsd ... ment&PRINT

http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0%2C385 ... %2C00.html

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/text/2 ... er31m.html

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... 664992.cms

http://www.hr-action.org/archive/tdn24498.html

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/ruth.buddell/snyder.htm

http://www.garygordonproductions.com/pe ... apers.html

http://www.wibw.com/home/headlines/1056326.html

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_kill ... acy_1.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/americas/3195157.stm

[Harry]

***"When Mr Knowlton first entered the Borden house, he chanced to pick up a large book. It dealt with recipes, drugs and medicines. It fell open in his hand---the back was half broken---to an article on prussic acid." (pp.88,89)***

thanks, diana -- that's the source i was remembering, though i know nothing more about it either.
..................
if knowlton had ever had any such evidence about poison -- he would have dropped that from his case anyway because of the ruling about bence?

does anybody who has knowlton papers know of it there?

Yes, thanks Diana, that was what I remember. Lincoln - uh, oh. Pearson - maybe?

I checked Knowlton but couldn't find that scenario. The nearest thing to it was HK031, page 39, in a letter, dated August 28, 1892 to Knowlton from a lawyer, T. J. Mackey, where Mackey lists 9 things Knowlton should look at. Number 4 on the list was:

"Ascertain whether any books on medicine referring to poisons, or on
anatomy were in the house and if accused read them or ever borrowed
such works. Notice if marked for reference."

Its probably one of the better letters Knowlton received.

[Allen]

I'm probably mistaken, but I think I remember there being a reference to the book with the broken spine being in another source also. I am going to go check that out as soon as I can. I hope my memory isn't failing me, and it isn't just Lincoln I was remembering. Was there a reference to it in the newspaper? I am glad Harry shared the information in those letters also. In the short time I have been a member of this forum, I have been convinced Harry is a true gentleman . Thanks Harry.

[john]

this is very interesting, wintressanna.
i think though, that if chlorophorn was used on abby, that she would have to have fallen backwords to have received her frontal head wounds with the hatchet. then she would have to have been turned over to receive those to the back of her head. why turn her over if the murderer had no anamosity about striking a face with a hatchet, as was andrew's case. the death photo of her dress shows it aligned straight up and down except for a section under her and to the side that appears to have flown out if she turned to her left while falling. to have turned her over after she was down, would have meant askewing her dress away from the direction of turn on top, and towards the direction of turn on the bottom. to straighten her dress after she had fallen would mean either lifting her up completely, leaving bloody hand prints, or leaving bloody hand prints all over the dress while turning her, and why straighten her dress anyway?
as to andrew, chlorophorm would explain his clenched hands - resistance while a rag was placed over his face. but if he was sleeping or near sleep anyway, an issue i don't entirely agree with, why use chlorophorm on him. in his case if he was being addressed while killed, an axe would probably work better and more quickly than chlorophorm. especially if you weren't afraid of his alerting and alarming someone else in the house.

[Allen]

I'm not quite sure that they would've had to have fallen backwards.I don't quite see how that is an absolute. I would think they would've fallen forward out of the killers hold if they were being held from behind.I think if they were held from behind it would've made it harder for them to struggle away than if they killer tried to apply it directly from a frontal position. I think they were attacked from behind because the killer (Lizzie) was trying to keep from looking into their faces, into their eyes, as she killed them. Especially Andrew. That is often a sign of a killer who knows the victim. They do not want to look into their face as they commit the act.They try to depersonalize them somewhat. No matter how much hate she may have harbored toward them, she had spent the better part of her life with the Abby, and all of her life with Andrew, and he was still her father. So I think an attack from behind makes more sense. I think the overkill would also point to someone who knew them and was close to them. They wanted them dead beyond a shadow of a doubt, so they just kept hacking.This is just my opinion though. I read in a few articles on people who use chloroform to kill that they either test it out on themselves first, or they test it on small animals to experiment with the dosages.

[Audrey]

Allen-- think of it this way. If Lizzie did use a substance to subdue them why not do something like just hold a pillow over their face after?

You think it would be easier to hold a pillow over someone's face than a rag or a cloth? Well if they were unconscious, yes it would be fairly easy to kill them that way. But, I think it was a crime with more feeling behind it than a simple smothering. There was a reason an axe was used, not some other weapon.

But you cant have it both ways from a forensic perspective...

I find it nearly impossible to imagine a person capable of such madness... (Calmly chloroforming someone and then flying into a rage and hacking them about the head multiple times) would be able to control those kind of emotions and impulses for the rest of their life-- in as far as we know-- and Lizzie was a victim of early Papparazzi... They reported every move she made... I don't think she could have hidden this kind of craziness and I don't think it would have waited until she was in her early 30's to manifest itself. (ie- schizophrenia)

I belong to a "blog" of other psychology and criminology professionals and I am going to present this theory to them.... If you like you can private message me anything you like for me to present to them as well.. I am interested in seeing what they think.

I also like agreeing to disagree.... I also realize you and I approach topics such as this very differently-- You as a soon to be law enforecement officer and me from a place where we try and understand crimes and criminals better.... You are the "gotcha" type and I am the "You really think so?" one!

Makes for some interesting conversations doesn't it???

[Allen]

So you think Lizzie was innocent then? How much more crazy would someone have to be to chloroform someone before they killed them, than to just kill them in the first place?

[theebmonique]

Maybe I am over-looking too many details, or maybe the Varathane fumes are getting to me, but I can't see Lizzie spending all the time (and energy ?) to test and experiment on how to get the chloroform dosage 'just right'. Plus, where and how would she have done this practicing...without someone knowing or finding out...or getting suspicious ?


Tracy...

[Allen]

The original article that brought the chloroform to my attention stated that Lizzie bought it four years before the murders, plenty of time to experiment. The article also said she claimed to have been buying it to kill a cat. I found the mention of this article in the archives, and it was originally posted by Kat.

[Audrey]

I waffle on my opinion of Lizzie's degree of guilt.

I can tell you this... If anyone ever proves that chloroform was used in this crime I will eat an entire can of Spam on National TV with Roseanne Barr.... Two things which (singularly) make me throw up a little bit into my mouth to just think about...

[doug65oh]

Gawd, now there's a lovely thought! (Statistics prove by the way, that Spam is the No. 1 cause of suicide among pigs.)

[theebmonique]

Melissa,

I am checking Rebello, pg. 81...are you talking about the chloroform article from the Boston Herald, August 8, 1892 ? It mentions Lizzie going to Brow's Drug Store to buy chloroform for the purpose of killing a cat. This was four years prior to the murders. Mr. Brow had not seen her since that purchase.


Tracy...

[Kat]

Thought I might get a quick synopsis on these crimes, but I guess not.
I've annotated the first 7 here. Thanks. Don't know if you read these?
It looks like a pattern of strangulation after chloroforming. World-wide crimes.



http://www.mrsc.org/mc/courts/supreme/1 ... 2d0577.htm
--This was a use of chloroform to subdue multiple victims almost simultaneously. Interesting choice.
...........

http://www.ardemgaz.com/ShowStoryPrev.a ... ID=Ar00104
--Sounds like a murder/suicide. Chloroform used on girl and then she was raped. They couldn't tell if she ever regained consciousness after the dosing. She was shot in the head.
..............

http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/Newsd ... ment&PRINT
--Lebanon. Man uses chloroform on man and strangles him!

..............

http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0%2C385 ... %2C00.html
Durban-
"The exact cause of death has not been revealed but it is rumoured that it was not strangulation but too much chloroform."
.............

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/text/2 ... er31m.html
"Jasmer was struck with a hammer, stabbed, then suffocated, according to court papers. "
--This was 3 weapons and two perpetrators. No chloroform.

...........

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... 664992.cms
"'Later, Satyam was killed,' said Town DSP R K Dubey. According to the post-mortem report, marks of strangulation were found, police said. However, other police sources said that Satyam might have died due to excess inhaling of chloroform."
--India. It's believed the chloroform killed the young man who had been kidnapped.
If not --again strangulation went with the chloroform dose.

..........

http://www.hr-action.org/archive/tdn24498.html
"Suspicions that fueled the debate until now have disappeared with the latest post-mortem report. The report states that chloroform, a chemical substance used as an anaesthetic, was found in Serkan's blood. The report also says that Serkan was murdered by hanging, after
he fainted due to the effects of this substance, which is available everywhere."
--There is still doubt. It's possible he was dead before he was hung. It seems like a case of chloroform and strangling, if not suicide, which it was first thought. Hanging, if he was killed that way, is strangling.

[Audrey]

I read about half a dozen of the links (at random) and the chloroform seems to have been used to render the victims helpless so that they could be killed at a later time-- and not immediately.

[Kat]

Did we pass each other posting, Audrey? I was taking a lot of time and I don't know if you read my post or are responding to something previous?

[Audrey]

I edited...

What I meant was that there is no comparison in those cases to the Bordens. The Bordens (and in Andrew's case we do know this fairly certainly) were not rendered unconscious to be killed later or to buy the killer time so that he/she could search the house for things to steal or move the victim from one location to another.

[Kat]

My point was that strangulation went with chloroform, which was my original question.* These links so far seem to show that. That is the only thing they had in common with each other- I was pretty specific in my review.
I'm not generalizing about these in comparison with the Borden case.

*page 2 on this thread:
"I said if she used chloroform why not strangle? I didn't say "smother" notice--Kat knows her weapons/methods...

[Kat]

The reference to the book whose spine was broken is from Pearson, as Diana posted.

[Kat]

I don't wish to seem like I am ganging up on you Allen.
I did say from the first that I dobut the chloroform scenario.
One of my main objections I have made known. The other is that the old folks were already incapcitated somewhat by their illness. They probably were dehydrated, and weakened, at the least. Once Lizzie has her hands on that hated face trying to chloroform them, how can she stop before strangling? It seems that would be a more natural next step. She doesn't say oh wait, let me get my hatchet.

Anyway, I admire that you stand your ground. There's a lot of opposition.

[Susan]

The other is that the old folks were already incapcitated somewhat by their illness. They probably were dehydrated, and weakened, at the least.

Kat, that just brought to mind an image of Lizzie bringing each of the elder Bordens something like Garfield tea with a little extra something in it or a glass of water with some medicinal powder and a shot of whatever. I think Abby would be suspicious of Lizzie being so sensitive to her needs, but, Andrew? I think he would have willingly taken anything Lizzie gave to him. I'm thinking maybe it would have been easier to chop someone who was unconcious and didn't complain or struggle or scream. But, I guess the problem would be as to what to use that wouldn't show during the autopsy or either?

[Allen]

Well if you were going to review them, you missed a few.Might as well annotate them all.

A court in Belem, northern Brazil, has sentenced two men to a total of
92 years' imprisonment for their part in the murder and sexual
mutilation of young boys in the Amazon town of Altamira between 1989
and 1993......Five were mutilated and died, three escaped with
horrible injuries, six escaped before they were harmed and five have
never been seen again.All the attacks took place between 1989 and 1993.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/americas/3195157.stm
-------------------------------------------------------------------


Yet before he was able to understand where he was and what was
happening, the stranger again covered his face with the chloroform-
soaked rag and he passed out...... That evening
Ringall was viciously raped, tortured and drugged by the sadistic
stranger.

( he did not die but not all of Gacy's victims were so lucky)

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_kill ... acy_1.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Prosecutors say Horton lured or forced the girl into a vacant school
building, where he used chloroform to disable her.

(doesn't state the cause of death)

http://www.wibw.com/home/headlines/1056326.html
----------------------------------------------------------------------

As I said before, I respect your opinion, and your right to have it. I don't expect everyone to always agree with me. All I ask is that I get the same courtesy and I happy.

[Kat]

Thanks for annotating the remaining crimes. I just stopped because I didn't feel like doing any more, not because I knew the outcome.

Here is the Pearson quote on that book with the broken spine:

Masterpieces of Murder, An Edmund Pearson True Crime Reader. " Edited together with an original essay on the Borden Case, by Gerald Gross with an introduction by Miriam Allen deFord, Bonanza Books, New York."
The copyright dates for the Pearson articles come before the publish date of Pearson's Trial.
1924,1925,1926,1927,1928,1929,1930. There then are copyright dates starting in the 1950's, but Pearson was dead by then.

"One of these attorneys, on entering the Borden house for the first time, found a book of recipes and prescriptions. He took it up, and it fell open in his hand -- at a passage devoted to the subject of prussic acid."

[Kat]

To answer you Susan, I have a hard time thinking Lizzie poisoned anyone with anything, you know. It's my same old argument that it is another MO, and doesn't fit with the weapon finally chosen.
If Lizziie didn't wield a hatchet, but the plan was to sicken and weaken the old people from within the house thru the food in order to make them easier targets, then maybe Lizzie did that for someone else, and they did the hatchet killing.
2 weapons usually means 2 killers to me-I am consistent pretty much on this, and that is a lonely stance as well.

[Kat]

The Gacy link:

"To muffle the screams of his victims, he would stuff a sock or underwear into their mouths and kill them by pulling a rope or board against their throats, as he raped them"

"The coroner said that the underwear stuffed down the victim's throat had caused Mazzara to suffocate."

It seems like the boy who got away was the one chloroformed and raped but lived. The one mentioned in the post.
These other's seem to have been Strangled/smothered type of killing.
Are there any more Gacy chloroformed victims in that online booklet?
I have read Gacy, but many moons ago.
......

In this case:
http://www.wibw.com/home/headlines/1056326.html
no cause of death was given.
Edit: ooops I see you show no cause of death...

[john]

chlorophrorm abrashes the face.
not evident on a dead cat i guess.
there is absolutely no way chlorophorm could have been used on abby.

[Harry]

I'm probably mistaken, but I think I remember there being a reference to the book with the broken spine being in another source also. I am going to go check that out as soon as I can. I hope my memory isn't failing me, and it isn't just Lincoln I was remembering. Was there a reference to it in the newspaper? I am glad Harry shared the information in those letters also. In the short time I have been a member of this forum, I have been convinced Harry is a true gentleman . Thanks Harry.

What are you trying to do, ruin my reputation? Gentleman? Pshaw!

I believe the open book story is also in Radin. The authors probably got it from Pearson, who in turn probably got it from some newspaper. It sounds like a typical made up "fill" newspaper story when things get slow.

[FairhavenGuy]

To go back to the original question as it was first posed: Could the chopping with a hatchet have been used to "cover up" another form of death?

Yes.

Forget chloroform for a minute, okay? Abby and Andrew had been sick, possibly of some sort of poisoning. Abby suspects the baker's bread and later the milk is pointed to. Lizzie said she, too, was sick and mentioned poisoning. However, it becomes pretty clear that unless somebody sneaked up and tampered with the milk on the back steps very early in the morning or the baker had it in for all of his customers, poison is pretty much an inside job.

Suppose, after Andrew left, Abby did finally succumb to poison--maybe an additional dose in her after breakfast pick-me-up.

Suddenly, an inside murderer realizes that the poisoning pretty much points to somebody inside the house. But--ah--what if some fiend like Jack the Ripper were to steal in and slash the victims? Hmm, what have we got around the house that might make it look like some wild killer? Hey, a hatchet, great! Chop, chop, chop. . .

It would not mean a change from a calm poisoning demeanor to a raging lunatic. It was meant to LOOK like it was a raging lunatic to cover up the fact that it had really been an inside job.

Yes. I think that it's possible, at least.

[Angel]

I don't know much about the Sherock Holmes stories. Did Doyle write the story about the chloroform and bludgeoning murder before 1892? Lizzie was a reader, so maybe she got her "inspirations" from him, or writers like him.

[doug65oh]

The author of the story on the link Harry posted back there Angel...the name is Thomas Vaughan. Dr. Conan Doyle didn't write it.

The closest thing to that written by Doyle himself (I think, it's been awhile since I thought about it) should have been "The Adventure of Lady Frances Carfax." (That's the only one I recall, I mean.)

As I recall...Holmes took the spill over the Reichenbach Falls in...1891, and was not heard of in print again (and thsi is thru Doyle) until 1894.

[Angel]

Thanks. What I was trying to say was that, if Lizzie did use some kind of poison or ether before the attack, maybe she got the idea from something she read about some previous murder.