Lizzie Borden Society Forum

If Abby's body would have been dragged her dress would be laid differently than when they found her. If you read back, I noted long ago that her dress is twisted as if she had turned to her left while falling.

If Abby's body would have been dragged her dress would be laid differently than when they found her. If you read back, I noted long ago that her dress is twisted as if she had turned to her left while falling.

john,

Would you please be so kind as to provide a link to where you posted previously, concerning your noting about Abby's dress twisting as if she had turned to her left while falling. ? I would like to re-read that, but I am not sure which thread it is in.

Thank you,
Tracy...

I can't remember Theebomonique. It's back there somewhere.

How about a finder's fee, please ?

viewtopic.php?p=10177&highlight=#10177


Tracy...

Thanks Tracy!

What I remember is a foot clearance on either side of her body, according to Dolan. The measuring man, Kieran, came on the 16th. By then the bed had been moved, probably a few times. Even the bloody carpet was cut out by then too (meaning the bed was probably moved for that purpose as well):

Dolan
Prelim
Q. You do not mean me to take five feet as a correct measurement of that distance?
A. No Sir, three to four.
.........

Q. Did you hear the engineer say this morning it was two feet and ten inches that he measured there?
A. I do not recollect that I did.
.......

Q. Did she fill all that space pretty well, between the bureau and the bed?
A. No Sir.
Q. How much space on either side of her should you judge there was, between the bureau on the one hand and her, and the bed and her on the other hand?
A. I should think there would be a foot on either side, a foot between her and the bureau, and one between her and the bed.
Q. That would make her then exactly ten or eleven inches, the size of her trunk, the diameter of her trunk? Do you mean to have me understand that?
A. No Sir; that is taking the engineer’s figures, he is giving you definite figures; I am giving you what I thought, what my ideas were.

Kat, thanks for the Dolan prelim info. Yours is much better/more exact than what I found. I must not have read through it far enough.

Susan, I really liked how you added the blood to that picture of Abby. It really made things much more clear for me.


Tracy...

Anyone who drags a person, can also change the way the body lies at the end. They can fix the dress, they can remove parts of clothing, they can even dress a nude body. There was plenty of time to pose Abby any way they wanted.

theebmonique @ Wed Mar 30, 2005 10:55 pm wrote:Susan, I really liked how you added the blood to that picture of Abby. It really made things much more clear for me

I'm glad it helped, Tracey. I've read through those descriptions of blood spatter and looked at the crime scene photos and tried in vain to see if any of the blood spots showed at all, which they don't, only the pooled areas of blood. I thought it would be neat to see the room with the "blood" spatters in just to get a feel of what it was like. Odd how the rail of the bed got the most blood spatters, but, not the wall or baseboard directly above Abby's head. Most of the blood went to the right or to the south, why? The angle of Abby's head when struck put out blood spatter that way? The way the hatchet was swung?

What a unique idea Wintressa! Why not hide the bodies? Not so much Andrew, but definately Abby.
The killing of Abby appears to be something more than the average person would know about not disturbing a crime scene, especially with the excessive time involved. Just as a little example, why not cover Abby with a sheet so she wouldn't be visible from the steps?
I wrote a long thing about Lizzie being in the kitchen when Andrew came home and her wanting to send him in the front door and possibly going up to the guest room, but I dumped it because I thought it was more complicated than she was.
But maybe someone wanted Andrew to see Abby dead for sheer torture. Perhaps the laugh Bridget mentioned was after the door was open, hoping to lure Andrew upstairs by curiosity.
If Andrew was killed in the guest room as well as Abby, and someone ran away, everybody would be off the hook and that would sound like a better plan than hoping he would lay down on the couch.
Now if the killer ran away it would happen coincidentially with the policeman's picnic, and, Emma out of town, Uncle John there but gone, Bridget's washing windows (maybe back in,) Andrew not feeling well but going out anyway, Lizzie telling Bridget after Andrew was home about a sale, Abby supposedly going out but not changing her dress, Lizzie dawdling in the morning but saying she was going out in the afternoon (for fishing equipment,) Etc. etc.
The worst scenario if it was a set-up would be Bridget seeing the killer's backside.
I went into a lot about the locks, and Andrew sent around the front of the house to open an escape route for the killer too, but it may be beyond a criminal - there is so much speculation over Lizzie that it seemes to be dredged.

Right Kat, but if they just hit somebody even once with a hatchet the''ll have blood on their hands and leave a blood trail.
Try it out with a watermellon then lick your fingers and see if it tastes like watermellon.

I love the way you think Theebmonique! Also you get 500 points finders fee for that dress post.
S!

In forensics there is a mantra: "The first hit is free."

If Andrew has the capability of overpowering his assailant, then it seems he would need to be napping to be approached with a weapon.

Kat @ Sat Apr 02, 2005 1:31 am wrote:In forensics there is a mantra: "The first hit is free."

Kat,

Do you have a link to a site or something of this nature that illustrates or supporsts this? I really am not clear on what is meant by "the first hit is free."

It means that you can get one hit in before they begin to defend themselves....

Audrey @ Sat Apr 02, 2005 2:37 am wrote:It means that you can get one hit in before they begin to defend themselves....

I see. Based on what Kat posted I thought she implied the first hit did not cause any blood spatter.

But I would think if the victim ( Abby) saw the attack coming, she would instinctively try and defend herself.

FIRST an incised wound 2 and 1/2 inches in length, and 2 and 1/2 inches in depth. The lower angle of the wound was over his spine and four inches below the junction of neck with body, and extending thence upward and outward to the left. On the forehead and bridge of nose were three contused wounds. Those on the forehead being oval, lengthwise with body.

SECOND The contusion on bridge of nose was one inch in length by on half inch in width.

THIRD On the forehead one was one inch above left eyebrow, one and 1/4 inches long by 3/8 inch in width, and the other one and 1/4 inches above eyebrow, and one and 1/2 inches long by 1/4 inch wide. On the head there were 18 distinct wounds, incising and crushing, and all but four were on the right side. Counting from left to right with the face downwards, the wounds were as follows:

1. Was a glancing scalp wound two inches in length by one and 1/2 inches in width, situated 3 inches above left ear hole, cut from above downwards and did not penetrate the skull.

2. Was exactly on top of the skull one inch long penetrating into but not through the skull.


I obtained this version of the autopsy report from the LAB site.

I've always wondered why it says "over his spine" when it is Abby's autopsy report . I did some research and found some information on the following sites which helped me to better understand what these wounds may have been like. I was thinking. What if Abby did try and defend herself? The glancing wound may have come while Abby was unaware of the killers intentions and had her attention focused elsewhere, maybe kneeling down to fix the bed. But the attacker lacked either the aim or the positioning needed to make a penetrating blow, it merely glanced off. Abby turned her head instinctively, receiving the second blow which caused the flap wound. She tried to get up to run away but the next blow caught her in the back propelling her forward. She may have struck her face on some object as she fell, which in turn knocked her senseless and left her dazed. The killer then proceeded to inflicted the blows to the face which knocked her completely unconcious and subdued, dragged her back in between the bed and the dressing table making it harder for her to try to struggle away if she should regain consciousness, and here they finished her off. For a paniced and inexperienced killer, the first blow may have been wavering or uncertain, which is why it glanced off. The killer (Lizzie) was also inexperienced with handling a weapon of this sort.But they could've become more and more savage with each blow as the killer gained momentum. In her frenzied state she may also have truly been afraid Abby may wake up and try to struggle away again.The blows to the top of Abby's head could've very easily been inflicted as she lay face down on the floor.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wounds



When any tissue in our body is torn or cut by injury a wound is caused. There are several types of wounds like Bruises, Lacerations, Contusions, Incised wounds, Punctured wounds and others.

Incised Wounds are caused by sharp instruments like knives, razor etc. The blood vessels are "clean cut" and so these wounds bleed extensively.
Contused Wounds are caused by blows from blunt instruments or by crushing. The tissues look bruised.
Lacerated Wounds are caused by fall on rough surfaces, pieces of shells, claws of animals, machinery etc. These wounds have torn or irregular edges and they tend to bleed less.

http://www.webhealthcentre.com/general/fa_wound.asp
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glancing wound -->
gutter wound
A tangential wound that makes a furrow without perforating the skin.

Synonym: crease wound, glancing wound.

http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/glancing_wound
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SHAPE AND SIZE of bruises are very variable & poor indicator of causative object. Expansion and movement blur the outline. Some bruises inflicted with a small hard object, immediately prior to death may retain the pattern of the causative object. Rapid death will limit the extension and blurring of the outline which usually occurs under circulatory blood pressure.
e.g. bumper, grille or headlight on pedestrian, neck ligature, blow over clothing or jewellery
An associated imprint abrasion is more useful.

http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedicin ... ndsdws.htm
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The flap-wound is what they termed a glancing wound. That was to Abby's face.
Which first wound are you deciding upon?

Note, the numbering in the report does not reflect the order of any of the wounds as suffered.

Here is what Dr. Dolan has to say about the flap-wound, at the Preliminary Hearing. (He examined Abby and did 2 autopsies on her):

Q. What of these wounds on the head, in your opinion, if any of them, were given while the person were standing up?
A. I would say the glancing scalp wound, which I spoke of, on the left side, that did not mark the skull; that flap drew right back.
Q. Now you tell us of a glancing scalp wound on the left side of the head over the left ear?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You think that wound might have been given under what circumstances?
A. While standing up, and facing.
Q. That was not necessarily fatal?
A. No Sir.
Q. What were the dimensions of that wound?
A. I think one and a half by two inches.
Q. An inch and a half wide, and two inches running from front to back?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did it cut the flesh entirely off?
A. No Sir.
Q. If there was any supporting hinge, where was that?
A. At the rear.
Q. Exactly in the back, or toward the bottom?
A. More towards the bottom; I think it was about medium. I would not say positively whether it was towards the bottom or above; I think about the middle.
Q. Was this hinge practically the entire width of the wound?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. So the flesh would fly back, like that?
A. Yes Sir, a flapping wound.
Page 145
Q. Now you are describing, in answer to my question, the wounds that she might have received when standing up; is there any other wound that you think of?
A. I do not think so, sir.
Q. In your opinion were all the other wounds given when the person was lying down, prone on the floor? Could they be?
A. Yes Sir, they could be.
Q. In your opinion, from what you saw, were they so given?
A. Yes Sir.
....................

"The first blow is free" is something I have read in pop forensic books and on the Forensic Files shows on TV. I have always heard it, and in fact heard it again just recently: it means the first wound does not spatter- it does not fling blood. Also, you can imagine sometimes a knife wound for example. Someone sticks the knife in and doesn't remove it. The wound merely leaks. That's an example of what is meant (even tho the weapon is not left in the wound.) That's the picture it makes of one wound.
It takes the second wounding to coat the weapon to cause spatter and throw-back or cast-off.
It's like the first wound cuts the surface tension of the skin, while any additional blow will collect the blood and fling it.
Don't you have anyone at school you can confirm this with?

Kat @ Sat Apr 02, 2005 4:40 am wrote:The flap-wound is what they termed a glancing wound. That was to Abby's face.
Which first wound are you deciding upon?

Note, the numbering in the report does not reflect the order of any of the wounds as suffered.

Here is what Dr. Dolan has to say about the flap-wound, at the Preliminary Hearing. (He examined Abby and did 2 autopsies on her):

Q. What of these wounds on the head, in your opinion, if any of them, were given while the person were standing up?
A. I would say the glancing scalp wound, which I spoke of, on the left side, that did not mark the skull; that flap drew right back.
Q. Now you tell us of a glancing scalp wound on the left side of the head over the left ear?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You think that wound might have been given under what circumstances?
A. While standing up, and facing.
Q. That was not necessarily fatal?
A. No Sir.
Q. What were the dimensions of that wound?
A. I think one and a half by two inches.
Q. An inch and a half wide, and two inches running from front to back?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did it cut the flesh entirely off?
A. No Sir.
Q. If there was any supporting hinge, where was that?
A. At the rear.
Q. Exactly in the back, or toward the bottom?
A. More towards the bottom; I think it was about medium. I would not say positively whether it was towards the bottom or above; I think about the middle.
Q. Was this hinge practically the entire width of the wound?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. So the flesh would fly back, like that?
A. Yes Sir, a flapping wound.
Page 145
Q. Now you are describing, in answer to my question, the wounds that she might have received when standing up; is there any other wound that you think of?
A. I do not think so, sir.
Q. In your opinion were all the other wounds given when the person was lying down, prone on the floor? Could they be?
A. Yes Sir, they could be.
Q. In your opinion, from what you saw, were they so given?
A. Yes Sir.
....................

"The first blow is free" is something I have read in pop forensic books and on the Forensic Files shows on TV. I have always heard it, and in fact heard it again just recently: it means the first wound does not spatter- it does not fling blood. Also, you can imagine sometimes a knife wound for example. Someone sticks the knife in and doesn't remove it. The wound merely leaks. That's an example of what is meant (even tho the weapon is not left in the wound.) That's the picture it makes of one wound.
It takes the second wounding to coat the weapon to cause spatter and throw-back or cast-off.
It's like the first wound cuts the surface tension of the skin, while any additional blow will collect the blood and fling it.
Don't you have anyone at school you can confirm this with?

I have a few people I can talk to. I don't have class again until Monday tho. From all that I have read about a what is termed a glancing wound, it is one that does not break the skin, it merely leaves an indention in it, or a crease.In fact is also refered to as a crease wound. So I think the wording of the autopsy report is a little misleading when taken against the testimony given. But if this were the case, then maybe the flap would was inflicted first. They meant to catch Abby unaware but at the last second she turned her head and the flap wound was the result. Then maybe she instinctively tried to turn and run as I stated before, and take the scenario from there. A forceful blow to the back could cause someone to propel forward, she could've struck her face off of some object on the way down, knocking her senseless. The killer struck her in the face, drug her between the dressing table and the bed, and finished the deed there.

Allen @ Mon Mar 28, 2005 10:29 pm wrote:
Cast off. Blood droplets that follow a path or an arc, in order with the curvature of the movement of the weapon, drops at bottom will be going in one angle, some will be at 90 degrees, and those at the other end of the arc will be going in another direction. There will be two kinds of directionality. A two by four would have two lines of cast off. Difficult to read and often will be in crazy places (cast off will be on ceilings and walls). You will have an 'arc' of cast off. Will tell which way the person is beating, or stabbing and which hand the person is using. If someone is laying there dead and there is cast off, the person has been hit two times. The first strike does damage and the blood pools in the wound, the second strike does cast off.

Longer the droplet, shorter the angle.

http://jimtrue.com/school/cjt1111/000066.html

I just realized after rereading the thread that my earlier post about cast off contained a reference to what you are talking about Kat.

Allen @ Sat Apr 02, 2005 1:08 am wrote:glancing wound -->
gutter wound
A tangential wound that makes a furrow without perforating the skin.

Synonym: crease wound, glancing wound.

http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/glancing_wound

I wonder if the terminology has changed at some point in the past 100 years. The flap wound is glancing in the non-technical sense: it didn't penetrate the target (i.e., the skull), but bounced off.

Lynn

Respectfully, it doesn't sound to me like an inexperienced killer did it. Why kill Mrs. Borden at the place she was killed? If Lizzie, or whoever did it wanted it done, the house was in almost exactly the same situation a few seconds earlier, and she could have been gotten from behind after Mrs. Borden came up the stairs and it would have been much easier except for one thing, that is if Mrs. Borden happened to scream. If the killer waited secontarily until Mrs. Borden was at the foot of the bed and rushed in and closed the door behind them the scream would be much less, especially inside the house, which unknown to either the mysterious killer, or to Lizzie, may have been occupied.
Also I question why the guest room door was left open. I'd think if a person bludgeoned someone, and had the ability to leave (which they did) they would close the door to that room if they had the ability to. But, if they left the door open then it would be one less major thing that they didn't touch. Even if they, or Lizzie, were sticking around to kill someone else, why leave the door open? Leaving the door open to me indicates haste or professionalism. It suggests someone staying in or around that room and someone else telling them "just do it," (meaning Andrew) and that is the focus now, and everything else becomes secondary, or it could simply mean they didn't want to leave blood, or it could be a want to find the body which I'm not sure I believe. Of the three, I'd think more towards the first. Granted we don't always know where Lizzie was for certain, or if she opened and closed doors during that time, but ex post factually the door was left open.
If it was someone not from the house, what's the difference if they left a blood trail or not. The only reason a blood trail would be important would be if it, say, led back to Lizzie's room and rested on her bed. An unknown killer could leave blood all over the place and it wouldn't matter.
It appears to me that Abby was set-up, but there is no way that the killer could have known what Andrew was going to do. (If it was Lizzie why not keep him in the house that morning if she could instead of sending him to the post office?) So then why would an outside killer stick around? - A chunk in favor of Lizzie did it.
But the logic here is that Lizzie went about and did other things between the murders, and there is no blood most anywhere, and no way to clean up upstairs, and no way she could have thourghly anyway.
I should change my name to ramblin.
If Uncle John would have shown up earlier he probably would have been killed too.
I thought "the first hit is free," was a boxing term whispered by Larry Holmes to Muhammed Ali in a clinch. No joke.

If the killer waited secontarily until Mrs. Borden was at the foot of the bed and rushed in and closed the door behind them the scream would be much less, especially inside the house, which unknown to either the mysterious killer, or to Lizzie, may have been occupied.

john, I am not sure what "secontarily" means. I tried finding it's meaning a couple of dictionaries, but was unable to find anything. What does it mean ?


Tracy...

...you might try replacing the "t" with a "d", Tracy.

Why send Andrew off to the post office if he's to be a victim later?
It's an interesting question.
Maybe so that when Abby was killed, he could not interfere.
Maybe someone found out (from Wednesday night) something was now in the house (like a will) and sent Andrew away in order to grab it.
Maybe Abby was tortured or threatened before her death to make her tell something, without Andrew around?

Doug, thank you for translating for john.

Now I am wondering how that word fits in where it is. john, did you mean 'momentarily' ?


Tracy...

john @ Wed Mar 30, 2005 6:46 pm wrote:If Abby's body would have been dragged her dress would be laid differently than when they found her. If you read back, I noted long ago that her dress is twisted as if she had turned to her left while falling.

John...It is comforting to know you have never worn a floor length dress..... Any woman will tell you.... If she is in a long gown and needs to kneel, squat, etc on or near the floor-- that thing is more than likely going to get pulled up... At the very least I would wager that Abby arranged it so that her knees were on the floor and not on her skirt....

Audrey @ Sun Apr 03, 2005 12:29 am wrote:
John...It is comforting to know you have never worn a floor length dress..... Any woman will tell you.... If she is in a long gown and needs to kneel, squat, etc on or near the floor-- that thing is more than likely going to get pulled up... At the very least I would wager that Abby arranged it so that her knees were on the floor and not on her skirt....

I definitley agree with Audrey. If a woman kneels down in a dress, she is going to pull the dress up so her knees are on the floor. It would be very impractical not to. For one thing, it would hinder your movement not to do so.

secontarialy = a few seconds
John's lingo

Hi!
I know this is an in interesting site to visit, lots of good information.
Have you seen the "Uncle John Killed Abby site?"
Wow!
Visit there for free trips for two to Hawaii, and a Hundee.

Oops, my secretary entered that wrongly - FREE TRIPS TO HAWAII FOR THREE AND A FREE HUMMER at "Uncle John Killed Abby" site.

Good comment Audrey, and I won't espond (wouldn't espond be a pretty word if it really was a word?) about my wearing of dresses. My thought was just with the lay of the dress as we know it after she was found, which is as far as I know, all there is to work with.

Kat @ Thu Mar 31, 2005 1:01 am wrote:Anyone who drags a person, can also change the way the body lies at the end. They can fix the dress, they can remove parts of clothing, they can even dress a nude body. There was plenty of time to pose Abby any way they wanted.

I totally agree with you here, Kat, there was plenty of time to "arrange" Abby. If she was kneeling down, most certainly she would have pulled her dress up, I think Abby was moved quite a bit, so the position they found her in was not the way she died. We don't know if the killer rolled her over, positioned her hands, fixed the hankerchief next to her body, etc..?

Think blood now guys.
Hope you had the wonderfullest time at the b&b on your honeymoon Allen.
If anyone ever opens a brunch in bed chain I'll be there.

Im thinking "blood"now........

Does anyone know how thick that material for the "blue burned dress" was? Was it a summer dress? a winter dress?

Okay maybe theres no way.......but maybe Lizzie wore the dress inside out? Would the blood have still seeped though?

Then she could have turned around again before burning it so it just looked like the paint was on it?

Alice Russell trial testimony page 415:

Q.What is the material of which the Bedford cord is made?
A.All cotten. That dress was all cotton.

Q.And not silk?
A.No, sir. There are different kinds of Bedford cord.

Q.While we on on it, what is that? (exhibiting blue skirt).
A. Well, I don't know what it is. It is silk, but I don't know what
kind.

Q.What is the waste?
A.I call it sateen.

Q.What is the calico composed of?
A. Cotton.

Q.All cotton?
A. Yes, sir.

Q.Was this Bedford Cord of which this dress was composed, cheap
or otherwise?
A.Cheap.

Alice, later to become the sewing supervisor in the schools must have known her fabric.

Didn't she take in sewing at the Borden Street house?

If it was cotton it probably would have seeped through thank you Allen for finding that:)

Back to the drawing board. Thank you for listening:)

Would someone as heavy as Abby, who has live-in help, be KNEELING to clean under a bed? My emphasis here is on the heft Abby would need to be getting up and down. And what would she be using to clean the carpet under the bed....I doubt she was kneeling when she was first struck.

Well, I don’t know, Miss Pea. She could have been straightening a sheet or the bedspread, or even kneeling to reach something she’d dropped, like the mysterious hanky

But I like your wondering about this! Seemingly a small issue but one which could be revealing

To my untrained eye:

A starting point is that Abby was on her knees when the death blow came. I just don't see a falling body ending up in that position. The photo is so memorable precisely because it is so unique, with the knees bent, the soles of the shoes aligned and facing up.

If it were not for the glancing blow above the ear and said to be struck from in front, everyone would assume that either someone snuck up on Abby while she was kneeling or that someone forced her onto her knees before striking with the weapon.

If I understand correct, the prosecution claimed Abby was facing her killer and got turned around after the first blow, which was not fatal. Hard to imagine that. You take a blow to the ear and then you turn around towards the wall and end up on your knees?

What I imagine happened (and maybe something about that front wound makes my suggestion impossible): the killer grabbed Abby by the hair. Either Abby was already on her knees related to her chores, or the killer forced her onto her knees. The head was pulled back by the killer as he/she gripped her hair. So Abby would have been facing the ceiling when the first blow or blows came. As she would have been struggling, the first blow strikes the ear, a glancing blow. But Abby ceases struggling. The killer lets her fall forward, and then rains down blows to the back of her head.

Maybe the prosecution considered this and ruled it out. I don't know.

The medical examiners interpreted the autopsy findings that Abby was hit in the front first. The force of this blow caused her body to spin and fall. The assailant then pummeled the back of her head.

I can visualize that in my minds eye.

I cannot visualize someone falling and landing perfectly on their knees with their shoes together facing up. I know of no other murder victim that ended up like that. When a body crumbles, it doesn't end up on its knees, and certainly not with the legs even.

We can even watch knockouts in boxing or MMA, and no one falls like that. If not for the wound on the face, do you agree everyone would agree she died on her knees?

I had read early on for me that the police had said that when they first found her body, one leg was angled under the bed which led them to believe that she was trying to crawl under the bed to get away. The police admitted altering the position of her legs and skirt to show respect, just as they had done for Andrew in putting his boots back on. Sorry, don't know where I read it or if there is any proof of it, I think possibly it was discussed on this forum. That makes more sense to me than trying to explain how she could have just landed like that. The first time I saw that photo, my initial impression was that her body had been staged by the killer.

Leitskev -- "M" is correct, the body was acknowledged to have been moved a bit for the photos, to confirm her death, to move the bed, etc. I'll need to find the specific references, but her exact positioning in the famous death photo is not how they found her (exactly).

As always, correct me when I am wrong!
My memory of the transcript is that the doctors testified to moving her arms. I didn't actually see anything about the leg, though I certainly believe you. I'm still struggling to picture it, however. She seems to be clearly on her knees. This is probably not the place for me to make a joke...Ok, so I won't. But I just don't see why the cops or the doctors would believe that position was more respectable for her.