Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Speaking with Len Rebello this evening was amazing.
We discussed the case and the subject came up about
the position of Andrew's body on the sofa.
He told me about the habits of his grandfather who he would visit as
a boy and who was about 6'2".

When his grandfather came home the day, he would rest on the sofa,
with his feet on the floor, very like the position of Andrew.
There would be a pillow there on the side for his head and his feet had to be on the floor because
A) You don't put your feet on the sofa &
B) The sofa wasn't long enough for him tho it was a 3-cushion couch.
Also, the house had to be quiet when he laid down- no noise, before dinner.

Len said men that age of those times had habits and Andrew
probably rested like that most days. I think the killer would
know this if it was an "inside job." Also, Len agreed,
that Andrew made his rounds at the usual time and
probably returned at his usual time,
not *early* as some suppose.

That adds a dimension to me, of the possibility of planning
that murder-knowing about when and where Andrew would
be that morning- but that's my opinion.

Also, as to habits: I had talked to Harry about what he does
with the contents of his pockets, say, when he
arrives home. He said he doesn't empty his pockets
until he changes to sleep, and if he is wearing the same
jeans the next day, he doesn't empty his pockets at all.
Len agreed that men probably, in his experience,
will leave the contents of their pockets alone- until bed- and his grandfather would then place all it's contents
on the dresser in a valet. The wallet had a place- the money
had a place- everything routine.

I know that Bridget says Andrew took the key and went
upstairs and Lizzie said he didn't- I then wondered what
Andrew did upstairs, if he went, if not to empty his pockets.
He was found with his keys and watch and money- whih Len
says would be normal for that day and time.

[editing to fit my screen]

Thayne has a dish in his dressing room where he puts his key case, change and money clip every night. He usually changes his slacks for jeans or shorts when he comes home from the office and ALWAYS puts his belongings into the pockets of whatever he is putting on. He can be ready to go out the door in a whip snitch whereas I am always searching for my purse and deciding whether or not I need to freshen my lipstick and perfume.

Another thing I have noticed about men...

They always seem to think they have to be "ready" in case "something happens".

Thayne will not sleep Au natural "in case something happens". Apparently a pair of boxer briefs will make all the difference!

Perhaps Andrew was the same... Never quite relaxing-- always ready for any circumstance. He was the only man in a household of women.

In a town with dirt roads-- I can imagine a person's shoes would be dusty.... Perhaps this is another reason he wouldn't put his feet up.

I seldom wear shoes in the house-- Thayne always does.

You never know-- something might happen!

I was thinking, Andrew brought home that package or thing, same as a paper or book according to Bridget. Is it possible that Andrew collected any rents that day, according to the legend, he collected them in person. Yes, he had the 1st of the month, though he was ill that week, could he have collected more rent and placed the money in an envelope which he went upstairs to his room to put in his safe until he could deposit it in the bank the next day? Money in his safe wouldn't raise any eyebrows and as a creature of habit, everything had its place.

Were any of Andrew's rentals along the route that he took to get downtown?

And yes, the majority of men I know keep everything in their pockets, even if they lay down to nap. I only have 2 male friends who are exceptions to the rule who carry all their stuff, keys, money, etc. in their hands, they don't like to put stuff in their pockets and because of this are always losing stuff. I was thinking when I wear pants, I might have some spare change in the pockets, maybe some tissue, and breath mints. Everything else goes in my purse which usually gets hung up on a coat peg when I get home, that way I know where it is and its close to the door when I need to go out again. Yes, I too am a creature of habit.

Len Rebello has given permission to Harry and myself to post pictures from his book Lizzie Borden Past & Present here on this Forum.
Illustration courtesy of Len Rebello.
It doesn't look like Andrew collected any rents and if he did, he visited 3 banks on his outward journey.
Please click on pic:

Thanks for that, Kat. But I am confused about the latter portion of the return trip. You mean he walked back south of the house and then north again to get home? (I order a copy of Rebello when I was at the house, so I guess I will get the full story of Andrew's trip that day). Did Andrew go to Clegg's store and such before returning home?

Thanks, Kat, that is helpful to see Andrew's trip path to get downtown and back again. Also helpful to see where some of the principal buildings were in relation to the Borden's home, such as the Whitehead house.

Since Andrew visited a few banks that day and it was so close to rent day, was it possible that he made rent deposits in these banks to possibly several different accounts. Meaning he may have had a house account for each rental to cover repair costs and such and from each one would receive a deposit slip. Could Andrew have come home that day with a handful of deposit slips from the banks that needed to be put away?

I did a search and so far, this is what I could come up with, the deposit slips of that time period were quite different from what we would get today. A stack together could look like a small book or pamphlet.

Those are cool, Susan. I suppose they would be white in 1892?
I don't know how many it would take to make a stack equal to a small package.
But the route doesn't seem to include collecting rents.
The beginning of the month as a proper time for Andrew to be collecting is a good point.
I don't know even if Andrew collected his own rents. I don't know why he should. He was retired after all.

RobertHarry, this map you'll notice is predicated on Andrew going to the barber first.
I used to think Andrew went to the post office first, to mail Lizzie's letter- mainly because it's a straight shot at the end of his street, north.
The barber shop info is from the newspaper, but not elicited in testimony.
It might be possible to make another map based on Andrew's route which either leaves out the barber visit, or puts it in the missing time, much later.
With testimony, it can be ascertained when Andrew went where, but there is missing time.
There might be more info in the trial?

Yes, these receipts look yellowed with age, they probably would have been white in their day. This example of bank deposits is actually from 1908, I'm looking to see if I can find any from 1892. From what I've read, the newspapers of the times were quite thin compared to what we get today, it probably wouldn't take much. But, for a book, that would take quite a few, I imagine.

Yes, I don't know if Andrew actually collected the rents himself, thats why I had said that the legend has it that way. They could have been mailed to his home and he would still need to deposit them and possibly draw from some accounts and deposit in others, he may have come home with a sheaf of paperwork from the banks if this was what he was doing.

Okay, I'm too lazy to look this up now, plus I'm on vacation this week and we spent the day in Mystic, CT.

Anyway, there was a suspect who was supposedly behind on his rent, and he showed the police a receipt that his rent was paid up. It seems to me it would have been signed by Andrew, right? Collected in person? Would Andrew J. Borden HIRE somebody to collect his rents?

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Here's the bit about the tenant who had the receipt for the rent:

"Henry H. Carter No. 88 Snell street had a dispute with Mr. Borden about rent and water bill. On this day he was engaged serving a needing breakfast up to 10. A. M. at Mr. Garvey’s No. 10 Cross street. At 11. A. M. he took the train at Ferry street for Stone Bridge. He has paper of credit from A. J. Borden for $66. for rent, dated Aug. lst." (Witness Stmt. p.9)

Looks as though Andrew may have had his share of arguments about rent payments. Here's another tenant who came under suspicion. The following appeared in the New Bedford Daily Mercury, August 10, 1892:1:

" .... It appears that Thomas H. Walker, a tailor working for John Carr, owed Mr. Borden one month's rent for a house on Fourth Street. When asked to pay, Walker used threatening language. On the day of the murder, Walker worked steadily from 7 in the morning until 12 and could not possibly have been near the Borden homestead." (Rebello, 128)

I like Susan's idea of the bank deposit slips being the paper/book/whatever that Andrew was seen bringing into the house.

Thanks, Diana and FairhavenGuy for bringing that up, it was news and new to me! If a tenant was late with rent, I wonder what Andrew's standard procedure would have been then about making arrangements to get it? Go directly to the home in question, have the tenant meet him at one of the banks, or, bring it to the Borden house? If they refused to pay or had a dispute about the amount, what did Andrew do then? Send his lawyer, show up with a police officer?

Thanks, Kat. When i get my Rebello, maybe I'll be inspired to do more thorough research. It just seems likely that if Andrew walked south and then north to get home, he might have tried the front door first since it was closest.

Yes you're right about Andrew approaching home from the south.
That means he passed the Kelly house but not the Bowen house. Mrs. Dr. Bowen was watching out the window intermittently for her daughter until 11 a.m. or so. She might not notice Andrew or anyone approaching from the south, except that depends upon where the train station was located. I believe the Bowen daughter might have been coming by train.

Anyway, Mrs. Kelly assumes Andrew was coming from around the side of the house. Apparently she saw his approach to the front door, and it seemed that way to her. That would imply that for whatever reason, Andrew did try the screen door first or maybe was coming from the *necessary* in the back of the barn. --but at the least that he came to the porch from the north.

It doesn't appear that Andrew was collecting rent that morning but are you guys saying that the tenants might give the money to the bank as a deposit and that Anbdrew then was picking up the deposit slips from the bank? I don't know how that works. That would be quite a stack for him to have it in his hand and to be noticed by Mrs. Kelly and Bridget. If it was common for Andrew to return from downtown with these slips, Bridget might be able to ascertain the distinction between that and a small package, as she would probably have seen such a thing before.
I was under the impression that Charles Cook, Andrew's man of business, took care of the collection of rents. He may have done that and still have receipts for Andrew. But Andrew didn't see Cook on Thursday, hmmm...(?)

I also think Andrew would have a shave first thing out the door- so Len's illustration of Andrew's last walk makes more sense to me now I see where the barber was located.

It doesn't appear that Andrew was collecting rent that morning but are you guys saying that the tenants might give the money to the bank as a deposit and that Anbdrew then was picking up the deposit slips from the bank? I don't know how that works.

My thought was more along the lines of the tenant actually meeting up with Andrew at one of the banks to sign a check over for rent so that Andrew wouldn't have to go out of his way since they were late already.

Another thought occured to me, Andrew was ill and missed a meeting at one of the banks that he sat on the board with, do you think its a possibility that he may have been carrying the minutes to the meeting that he missed so that he could catch up?

maybe this is oversimplification -- but could this parcel or whatever bridget saw be something andrew received in the mail? like a periodical in one of those "wrappers?"

and i'm confused if they did or did not find anything in sitting room other than what was in andrew's pockets.

then i sort of connect this with lizzie's insistence about newspaper, magazines, wrappers, etc.

i don't know about his trip upstairs, except it wasn't of course to empty his pockets. could he simply have changed shoes? one of the first things you do when you get home is make yourself more comfortable.

about the gender aspect of pants and contents (this is not signal for you, kimberly) -- he would have kept his necessaries with him, for in the sitting room at that time of day, he was still somewhat in a "public" mode.

i hear women trying to understand the contents of pants because they are comparing it to carrying around a purse. let me put it this way. a man's pants IS his purse (again, kimberly, stay on topic).

my system has worked perfectly all my adult life. i always have a pair of pants with everything in the pockets and also belt in loop that can be put on in a minute. the first thing when i get home (home to stay) is put on more comfortable pants or shorts -- but keep those public pants "intact" so to speak. even during laundry, there is always a pair with everything in them. when i put on a new pair, i transfer wallet, keys money, etc. to new pair -- THEN former pair goes into laundry. but i avoid having to take everything out just to put them on a table or dresser -- making them "vulnerable." so contents are always either in pants or being transferred to new pants.

edit

edit

Yes it has been discussed that Andrew might possibly have had business clients come over before the noon meal, so he would stay dressed- that makes sense.
If that includes shoes or slippers for a man of Andrew's generation I don't know.
Len was of the knowledge that Yankee's of that age were pretty correct about their clothing when they were not in the privacy of their bedroom.
Lizzie said Andrew took off his shoes and put on slippers and she makes it sound like she saw him do that.
Some say the shoes (congress boots) that he was found in could be considered slippers. They were street shoes which looked old and comfortable and were elastic-sided and were slip-on.
Maybe they were his compromise for downstairs wear?
If Andrew changed his shoes in his room, then Lizzie was there- she saw him she says...
Maybe she was in his room when he went up there, or followed him up.
This is assuming Bridget did not tell about this.

edit

The man preferred to sit in the dark versus use lamp oil.

It makes sense either way...

a)- He would wear his shoes until they were ready to fall off from wear--inside or out.
b)- He would wear old shoes around the house to keep his "downstreet" shoes nicer longer.

Yes, Morse and Andrew sat in the sitting room talking until 10 p.m. Wednesday night without the light. But there was a light in the hall and they wouldn't need light in the room to just talk.
The full moon was coming up on the 8th- it might have been pleasant and comfortable to talk in the summer evening in the low light.

If this is the only instance of Andrew being proved to have not lit a lamp, I think it is reaching that he has been frugal with the lamp oil. (I don't mean you Audrey- I mean The Legend of Andrew we have all heard- you made me think of this..).

Trial
Morse
143
Q. Do you recall whether or not as a matter of positive recollection you had a light in the sitting-room that evening?
A. I don't think there was any.

Q. You don't think there was any light in the sitting-room?
A. No, sir.

Q. This was a warm evening in August?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. You sat there in the sitting-room without having any artificial light?
A. I think there was no light. That is my recollection.

Q. Do you recall, Mr. Morse, whether the door leading from the sitting-room into the hall was open during the time you sat there?
A. I think it was open.

Q. You think it was?
A. I know it.

Q. Whether it was swung wide open?
A. I think it was.

Q. Do you recall whether or not there was any hall light?
A. I think there was a hall light.

With keychains and cell phones my pockets are usually jammed. I do carry a book bag, and I find that that ends up like a woman's purse!! Unlike Haulover, I empty out my pockets as soon as I get home, because lounging around is uncomfortable with my pockets stuffed. BTW I should conduct a survey--It is my firm belief that women use up their spare change by spending it, while men just let it pile up. I have a drawer at home filled with loose change. Every six months or so, I roll them all up and cash them in--I usually have anywhere between $75-$150!!!! Do you ladies spend your change, and do you men just empty it into a drawer??

Speaking of shoes--Eleanor Thibeault at the Lizzie house seems to think that Abby was wearing a pair of Andrew's old shoes. It is true, those shoes do look awfully big in her crime scene photo. Eleanor said that she often slips on a pair of her hubby's old shoes to schlep around the house. My fiancee, too, will often slip on my slippers in a pinch. Could be true with Abby, though I noticed those steps at the house are veryshallow, so you would think that a person would have difficulty climbing and descending in large shoes. Present-day visitors have left gouge marks on the back of the steps because our feet are generally larger now.

I always spend my change when I use cash. I do not dig for change though when I am in a crowded line with people waiting behind me.....

If I was to wear my husband's shoes-- even around the house-- they would fall off.

i've got two drawers full of change, two large brown boxes (created by dumping smaller containers into it) and a large plastic container by the bed (i slide the pennies off the bedside table directly into it when the table gets so full they start falling off). there's no telling how much $ i've got in it, i'm just too lazy to go through it.

(I couldn't lounge with wallet, keys, etc. either -- i just never lounge in walk-out-in-public pants.)


but back to andrew's habit -- that i guess is his way of putting off the public stuff and getting into the domestic mode. it isn't nearly comfortable enough for me, but i guess for a victorian old man, that's a typical lounging mode?

I remember my Dad taking rare naps on the couch
in "sitting room" (the house I grew up in was identical to Lizzie's) and he always had his hands crossed. It bothered me terribly because dead people looked like that in coffins. I wanted to wake him up and Ma always told me to Shut Up!
Back then, the man of the house ruled and women
must keep mouth shut! Later I remembered Dad
joking about Ma (who was a big mouth) screaming at us 4 kids "Be Quiet Your Father is taking a Nap!"
He said he never heard us kids, just Ma screaming at us.
Andrew must have just expected a nice peaceful
little nap on the couch. Poor ol guy.

From what I understand, Victorian women, and Abby was a Victorian woman, more so than the girls as she was older and the rules had sat on her longer- would not wear her husbands shoes. Why should she? She may have had a foot deformity, just enough to warrant a custom shoe for each foot- nothing too drastic. I think Abby's shoes were handmade, custom fit. These Bordens had work done on their teeth and there's no reason to suppose after that expense, Andrew would let Abby walk around in his old shoes. Any caller would see that. That would be as if she was not "dressed"- that's the point Len was making. This is my opinion, after hearing about Yankees and Victorian people and Fall River people who were all these things and had money in particular.

That was pretty funny Nancie. I can just picture that!

I know that Bridget says Andrew took the key and went
upstairs and Lizzie said he didn't- I then wondered what
Andrew did upstairs, if he went, if not to empty his pockets.
He was found with his keys and watch and money- whih Len
says would be normal for that day and time.

While rereading Porter I found something interesting attributed to Robinson during his closing plea to the jury. I checked the Trial documents and its in there:

"Now the alarm of the murders reached the police station about 11:15, and within that time Mr. Borden was murdered. We have learned of several things that he did---that he came into the house, sat down, went up stairs to his room, laid down his little package, and so on, ---"

How does Robinson know this about the little package? Where did he get his info?

Is that a quote from Porter or directly from the trial?
Can you give page numbers too when you do Porter/Trial comparisons? Thanks!
(I don't have an opinion until I know which source you're using. I'm a bit daft today )

That is directly from the Trial transcripts, Porter pretty much printed it verbatim, I think there was only slight punctuation changes. Its on page 1636 of the Trial volume 2. And its on page 224 in Porter's book.

Thanks!

Well, now you have a source for any author who claims Andrew put a package down in his room! That is, if anyone believes this hot-air, expensive $25,000 suit, who will say anything.

I think he made it up.
He was a highly paid magician.