Is this Lizzie?

Stefani · Post by **Stefani** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 10:51 pm

Is this her? On sale right now on eBay:

Here is the sale:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 6262613644

doug65oh · Post by **doug65oh** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 10:58 pm

huh?

errr...no...it's not even close

Innocent yes...but...

Stefani · Post by **Stefani** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 11:02 pm

I wrote the seller asking for provenance. Maybe there is a story behind this image at least. The seller deals in these images so maybe they have some words to share about why they think this is her and selling it as her.

She is pretty, though, isn't she . . . love the eyes!

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 11:24 pm

Don't think it is even close Stefani:

But she is pretty.....I have always felt that Lizzie was very attractive and could not understand why writers always demeaned her appearance as plain, or thick etc. Her hair looks similar.

This is one of those rare old photos where the person in it doesn't look lifeless or dead. She has a calm look almost as if it were someone we know.

And, just like Lizzie, she has that certain stare, like she is looking at you and thru you............

Though, the more I stare at her the more haunting she becomes......

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 11:33 pm

Wow......just figured out why she looks like someone I know, she looks just like my sister when she was much younger.......ohhhhhhhhh, will sleep with the lights on again....

When I first got an apartment when I was in my 20's, I had such pictures all over my place, of these dead people who's photos I purchase in old shops. After a while I got rid of them all. Everywhere I went their eyes would follow me all around. Every night I would have trouble sleeping.

Yes, yes, lights are on now....!!!!!!

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 12:05 am

Also, her shoulders are all wrong. Almost every photo of Lizzie you can see how broad they are.., almost a 90 degree angle, where this girls shoulders slope down, almost 135 degrees. Also Lizzie's eyes appear a little more oval and her eye sockets have a slight slant to them. This girls are more straight along the bottom and more of a puffy look along the bottom of her eyes above the cheeks. No????

Also, I think Lizzie had blue, green, or hazel eyes (light). Not dark brown as this gal does. Though the hair is exact, the shape of her face is a little off. Lizzie's face is more round and oval, where this girl's face tapers a bit.

But will keep an eye on it, would make a nice Fall River item. Could be a relative, I dare say....The seller may have some sort of proof, but provenance is very difficult to prove and a cetificate of authenticity real carries little weight...

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 12:54 am

I will be very interested to hear the response of the seller to your question Stef. That picture is NOT Lizze.

Tracy...

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 2:04 am

Yes theebmonique:

I also emailed the seller with a question of my own. I was half interested in the photo not as a Lizzie item but as a Fall River item.

Provenance is not something easy to prove. And as more time passes, the more difficult it becomes. Many dealers offer certificates of authenticity which really carry little weight, and only has value if it mentions a money back policy.

I once seen an old trunk and a sofa on ebay being sold by someone out west who claimed that it belong to her grandfather, and that he purchased them out of Lizzie's second street address, after she broke up house.

Another time it was a mantel clock from the murder at 92, with blood splatter still on it. I think that sold for over 200 dollars.

If I am not mistaken, I think Lizzie probably destoryed most of the furnisings when they left 92. And I can't see how they would be able to prove it. Would you trust a certificate of authenticity, or proof of provenance???

Very difficult thing to prove, and when it comes to Lizzie Borden, highly unlikely. Now if that was a real likeness of Lizzie, then there would be a much better chance, and it become a challange, and faith takes over, the proof being in your own eyes. In the ebay add he should of mentioned that he was almost certain, rather then make an out right claim.

Stefani · Post by **Stefani** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 6:02 am

The seller replied back that their assertion was based purely on a comparison of images.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 7:23 am

Thanks for the update Stef ! (Smart-alec comment about the seller needing glasses goes here.)

Tracy...

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 12:06 pm

Yes, Stefani:
Thanks for the info. A reputable dealer would not make such claim, without some sort of disclaimer.

Back when I first started collecting books, I remember asking a dealer if a certain book was a first edition. He added yes it was. But, later I would find that it was a "First Edition Thus," which meant it was a first edition in that format or by that publisher. The dealer knew that, knew what I was really asking, but choose to ignore it to make a sale.

A reputable dealer in antiquities would never make such a claim without reseaching the item. And if he was not sure, at the very least, advertise it as: "May be Lizzie Borden," or "Purchased from a large library of Lizzie Borden collectables" etc., and let the buyer become the judge.

But, he appears to imply that it is Lizzie Borden "period," and nowhere on the ebay site does he add any other information on that specific photo----- some unsuspected new collector may purchase this item thinking it is Lizzie, and not getting what he or she bargined for.

This is a big problem with buying on ebay and some big time dealer choose to stay away from it. Though some real good deals can be had.

The photo by itself is a thing of value, very collectable and stands on it's own merits as a antiquity. CDV's or calling card photos are very collectable and a Civial War era photo card can bring big bucks.

Fargo · Post by **Fargo** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 1:08 am

There is a picture on Ebay right now that is supposed to be Lizzie.

Although it looks close, I can't tell if its her because its not that clear, but if I had to guess, I would say its not Lizzie.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/ebayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0340223763

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 3:57 am

That's interesting- Thanks.

I'll have a good time looking at it.

Nadzieja · Post by **Nadzieja** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 5:22 am

I looked at that photo, and the face looks way too thin. I think if you look really fast maybe, but I don't think it's her.

stuartwsa · Post by **stuartwsa** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:34 am

Nope. The shoulders slope too much, wrong ears, and the cheekbones aren't right, for starters. Time for Kat to put a moustache on her!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:30 am

I was thinking the same thing! You read my mind, Stuart! Again!

I don't think I have Photoshop on this laptop...

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 10:04 am

The earlobes don't lie- no way. The space between the eyes is another constant also. I am always amazed how people think they can foist off any old photo from the flea market as being someone famous.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 5:01 pm

It is important to note that, if I am not mistaken, this seller has been informed by experts that this is not Lizzie Borden. Apparently he really believes it is Lizzie or believes in the all mighty dollar despite the truth.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:32 am

The E-Bay Line-up, for Stuart

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:33 am

E-Bay thru the years

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:35 am

E-Bay Lizzie thru the years

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:36 am

E-Bay Lizzie thru the years...

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:37 am

Not Lizzie on E-Bay

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:39 am

Who is that fair maid?
Not Lizzie!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:42 am

All the E-Bay Lizzie's! Not!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:43 am

Wow! That's a lot of "Not-Lizzies!"

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:45 am

Not Lizzie, too!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:47 am

The First Not-Lizzie

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:48 am

Not-Lizzie--poor Lizzie!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:50 am

Let's hope this is the last Not-Lizzie!
We want real Lizzie!

stuartwsa · Post by **stuartwsa** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 10:31 am

Thanks, Kat. That reminds me of that old Looney Tune where Daffy Duck goes through the city painting mustaches on the pretty girls on the billboards. Patrolman Porky has to chase him down and ends up with a mustache himself! :-) :-) :-)

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 3:17 am

Fargo · Post by **Fargo** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:58 am

Yet another Lizzie Picture has been discovered. Lizzie has her classmates with her in this picture.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ORIGINAL-Lizzie-Bor ... ZViewItemQ

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:20 pm

No way! Not even close. Looks like Lizzie Schneider to me.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:53 pm

The approach taken by this seller is a classic one......

To quote the seller,

"I CANNOT Authenticate this photo....its hard to do so on so many photos, so what I am saying is this may not be Lizzie....etc."

So, why is he beginning the auction at $300 dollars

If he is not sure....... he should make sure......

of course, to do so would carry a fee.

He expects experts who desire the image or fools who think it is her because he is 90% sure, to purchase the image for 300 dollars.

If he cannot authenticate the photo, then he should start the price at 20 or 30 dollars or he should get it verified and sell it according to its real worth.

That's what a professional would do.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Mar 01, 2009 12:52 am

I can't figure out where the seller got this idea?

Anyway,the chin favors the Gardner family of Swansea...

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:19 am

Actually, I think the child standing on the right looks a bit like Bridget....

Fargo · Post by **Fargo** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 5:49 am

Good question Kat. Maybe the similarity to the that known picture of Lizzie in about 1889. Maybe the picture has something written on the back that might make someone think it is Lizzie.

Hooper, you have opened a whole box full of questions. Lizzie and Bridget, classmates, separated as children. Think of the possibilities.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:21 pm

http://cgi.ebay.com/ORIGINAL-Lizzie-Bor ... dZViewItem

At first glance one can see some resemblance with the young lady in the CDV photo and Lizzie. Some features speak to a likeness, such as the eye brows, the liner mouth, texture of her hair, even the general round oval shape of the head.

But once you incorporate all these features and make a comparison the general likeliness is just not there.

Early photo's of Lizzie show her to have a much thiner face when she was in here early teens. Also, all photos of Lizzie from her teens to adulthood show the part down the middle of the hair. For most the part in their hair is like a fingerprint.

But, lets get to the core of this presumed pearl.

In all historical accounts and court testimony there is no account or proof that Lizzie Borden was out west, especially as a child, or in the general area of Iowa.

This photo was taken in Iowa by a studio photographer. Further more, this is some sort of a group photo. Why would Lizzie be in a group photo, dressed like everyone else,? It looks more like a school or church photo.

These may even be members of a religious group (cult? Also, notice they are holding some sort of book, Bible, school book?) Again it could be some sort of religious school if one is to judge the photo by the cut of their hair. Even if Lizzie were out west, why would she be in such a photo.

A couple of the young ladies in the photo look more like boys, all look very unhappy, but then again that is the complexion of old photos.

Why would young ladies such as these have their hair cut so short? Through out the 1800s long hair was the norm for girls and most adults.

But, let me add, in all fairness to those who have not studied the case as deeply as many here on the forum I can see how the seller of the CDV could make this error.

Fargo · Post by **Fargo** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 10:40 am

I notice our picture of Lizzie and her classmates went thyought the auction without a bid. Now it has been relisted with the same $300 starting bid.

Fargo · Post by **Fargo** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:40 pm

Well, unless I misread it earlier, and I don't think I did, the starting price is now $33 and it has a buy it now price for $89

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:46 pm

YES:

Here we go again.............as always, and always will be.

Someone (other than myself, cough, cough

) has claimed that he has found a never seen photo of LIZZIE.

This guy really believes it.

Read about it here

http://www.ebay.com/itm/130735877129?_t ... 011wt_1134

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:26 pm

OK, this guy has no idea what he's selling. Lizzie never looked so humble

(click on image to make large)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1984-Press-Pho ... 0276.m3476

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:03 pm

Lizzie Borden ~ No, it is not!

That photo is obviously of Bridget Sullivan, but it was NOT taken on 8/8/1984, as the seller indicates. Bridget died on 3/25/1948. It is plain to see that the newspaper article is stamped with the date of 8/8/1984. (Click on image to enlarge; the stamped date is at the end of the article.)

11628680.jpg

The seller should have done a bit of research!!! Jeeez!

This is the sellers photo:

untitled.png

This is a known photo of Bridget:

untitled 2.png

InterestedReader · Post by **InterestedReader** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:58 pm

Have a heart, there's 38,000 images he's selling. A lot.

He's simply selling the contents of a 'press archive. Back in the olden days, along with 'cuttings libraries', there would be these archives of images for newspapers to use.
The Bridget is the work of some poor illustrator. And the seller does have a Lizzie too:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1981-Press-Pho ... SwAj5ZxxBi
The accompanying cutting shows it in use.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:44 pm

I'm sorry, Wendy, I don’t mean to be heartless.

You're right, 38,000 is a lot of images, but there is really no excuse for falsifying information, especially when it comes to Lizzie Borden. All one has to do Google her name, and they will have all kinds of her photos to verify images with, which is what that seller should have done.

Here is the photo that the seller is selling in the link you posted:

s-l1600.jpg

Now this photo does look like Lizzie. The woman in the photo that MB posted, does not look anything like the woman in this photo.

I did edit out the first line of my previous post, because that comment really was uncalled for. I also changed the wording of the sentence right under the image of the newspaper. I hope I am not coming off as being heartless, after doing this.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:59 pm

I have just notified the seller of his error. Let us see if he makes the necessary change.

InterestedReader · Post by **InterestedReader** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:24 pm

Judy, that was just levity, I wasn't being censorious!
(Is it just a British expression, 'have a heart'?)
I meant, it must be a painful business listing 38,000 of anything on eBay.
In saying it's Lizzie I imagine the Seller took his cue from the attached clipping.

It's quite interesting to see such things again, with the remarks and measurements used by the guys doing the lay-outs. Today everything has changed beyond recognition - design and compositing are all digital, and there's no such thing as a physical image bank. There's almost no such thing as a physical newspaper any more.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:03 pm

Thank you, MB.

I'm hoping the seller is an honest person, who does not want to rip off his/her customers.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:31 pm

Wendy, thank you for explaining that ‘have a heart’ is just a British expression. I have always enjoyed learning what expressions from other countries mean. I find it fascinating.

Actually, I wasn’t offended, nor did I take your comment personally.

I really needed to make those changes to my original post, and I don’t regret making them. I don’t know the seller, and therefore should not have made the comment that I did.

Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Is this Lizzie?

Is this Lizzie?

Re: Is this Lizzie?

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