Our member, Augusta, and her family were recently in Fall River and had a chance to get us 2 small articles on the Ruby Cameron story from the Fall River Library. One here transcribed, I found the citation for in
Rebello, pg. 139:
"Borden Slayings Blamed on Lizzie's Boyfriend," Fall River Herald News, January 5, 1985: 6.
It seems the story broke to the Ellsworth American on January 2nd.
"Borden slayings blamed on Lizzie's boyfriend"
"CHERRYFIELD, Maine (AP) --
According to an 84-year-old woman from this eastern Maine town, now the truth can be told: It wasn't Lizzie Borden who took an axe and gave her father 40 whacks.
Both of Lizzie Borden's parents died in the 1892 axe slayings that became a folk legend. Ruby F. Cameron says Lizzie did not commit the murders, but covered up the truth to protect a suitor.
Miss Cameron, a retired nurse and health professional, told the weekly Ellsworth American that a man named David Anthony killed Lizzie's father and stepmother in Fall River in August 1892.
She said he 'killed them in a fit of fury. David got tearing mad because Lizzie's father wouldn't let him marry her and had laid down the law. They fought then and there. David went out and picked up an axe in the back of the shed and came in and destroyed both of them before anybody could say "boo!" '
She added, 'Lizzie had nothing to do with it. She was a victim. She wouldn't say anything because she loved David.'
Miss Cameron said her own parents, who worked for the wealthy Anthony family at the time of the slayings, and a friend who was the Borden's maid helped Anthony escape. He later lived with the Camerons.
But a leader of a group called the Friends of Lizzie Borden dismissed Miss Cameron's story Friday as the newest addition to an already massive collection of 'fiction' surrounding the unsolved case.
'We can find no record of David Anthony' in any of the standard reference books on the murders. W.T. Rabe, who is also director of public relations at Lake Superior State College in Sault Ste. Marie, Mich., said in a telephone interview.
Rabe said his group was founded more than 30 years ago, mainly to remind people that Lizzie was tried for the murders -- and acquitted -- in June 1893.
'Nobody knows' the origin of the familiar jingle that claims Lizzie 'took an axe, and gave her father 40 whacks; and when she saw what she had done, she gave her mother 41 [sic]', said Rabe. Actually, he said, Mr. Borden suffered 10 blows and his wife was struck 19 times.
Miss Cameron, who said the twin murders are discussed in her 125,000 word memoirs she is now completing, was born in neighboring New Bedford eight years after the murders. It was not clear from the American interview how she reached her conclusions.
She claimed that Anthony, whose family published the New Bedford newspaper, was viewed by Lizzie's parents as being 'crazy' but said that really, 'the only thing he was crazy about was motorcycles.'
In 1910, she recalled that Anthony would take her on a motorcycle to visit a woman whom she assumes was Lizzie. She said she recognized the house when she went to visit Lizzie in 1927 to introduce a nurse friend who was being hired to care for the dying woman.
Miss Cameron, who has a doctorate in biochemistry, said she kept her story to herself for all these years because she feared implicating her parents.
'I decided to shut my mouth forever, because it was clear to me that my own mother and father knew that David had killed the Bordens,' she said. 'And Lizzie, of course, knew it too.' "
--I think this is our earliest look at Ruby's story, so far, and there are odd things about this recital...
More Ruby
Moderator: Adminlizzieborden
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Harry
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I wonder what happened to the then incomplete 125,000 word memoir. Was it ever finished?
I still have a very hard time with conspiracy theories, or in general, theories that involve multiple people before or after the fact.
I just can't believe that multiple people, otherwise completely average and normal, would agree to cover up these two horrendous murders, when they themselves had nothing to gain. They would also expose themselves to the same penaltiy as the murderer.
And I won't even go into the blackmail aspects.
I still have a very hard time with conspiracy theories, or in general, theories that involve multiple people before or after the fact.
I just can't believe that multiple people, otherwise completely average and normal, would agree to cover up these two horrendous murders, when they themselves had nothing to gain. They would also expose themselves to the same penaltiy as the murderer.
And I won't even go into the blackmail aspects.
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FairhavenGuy
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Has Gramma ever mentioned the memoir?
I tend to agree with Harry about conspiracies in general, especially the Brown-type mega-conspiracies involving everyone under the sun. I do think there had do be some level of multiple participation in this case, even if it was only after the fact. I don't think that any of the major suspects could have committed this crime without at least some guilty knowledge or assistance by another.
I think the "perfect crime lottery" had to have been fixed a little.
I tend to agree with Harry about conspiracies in general, especially the Brown-type mega-conspiracies involving everyone under the sun. I do think there had do be some level of multiple participation in this case, even if it was only after the fact. I don't think that any of the major suspects could have committed this crime without at least some guilty knowledge or assistance by another.
I think the "perfect crime lottery" had to have been fixed a little.
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Kat
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Point 1- Gramma wrote a sentence about this is her article on Ruby in the current Hatchet. I recall she thinks the memoire was stolen.
Point 2- The murders were not committed all at once, before anyone could say "boo". There is a definite time gap, unless Masterton's theory that Abby went away and ate something and returned to be killed around the time Andrew was slaughtered is true. It doesn't account for the condition of Abby's body tho- the thickened blood on the carpet, or the coolness of the body.
Point 3- That Ruby only assumed it was Lizzie's house later in 1927 after possibly being there in 1910.
Point 4- That Ruby was involved in the hiring of the nurse for Lizzie and not that she nursed her herself- which involvement was the basis supposedly of Ruby's feelings of guilt over her mother later committing suicide.
Point 5- That Anthony wasn't crazy- only crazy about his motorcycle- But- if he was capable of killing the Bordens in a huge fit of "fury" that is reason enough for Andrew to read his character clearly and deny his suit for Lizzie's *hand*.
Anthony certainly is not *normal.*
Point 6- There is that reference to "the Borden's maid" helped Anthony to escape.
Anymore?
Point 2- The murders were not committed all at once, before anyone could say "boo". There is a definite time gap, unless Masterton's theory that Abby went away and ate something and returned to be killed around the time Andrew was slaughtered is true. It doesn't account for the condition of Abby's body tho- the thickened blood on the carpet, or the coolness of the body.
Point 3- That Ruby only assumed it was Lizzie's house later in 1927 after possibly being there in 1910.
Point 4- That Ruby was involved in the hiring of the nurse for Lizzie and not that she nursed her herself- which involvement was the basis supposedly of Ruby's feelings of guilt over her mother later committing suicide.
Point 5- That Anthony wasn't crazy- only crazy about his motorcycle- But- if he was capable of killing the Bordens in a huge fit of "fury" that is reason enough for Andrew to read his character clearly and deny his suit for Lizzie's *hand*.
Anthony certainly is not *normal.*
Point 6- There is that reference to "the Borden's maid" helped Anthony to escape.
Anymore?
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Audrey
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And another thing...
She said he 'killed them in a fit of fury. David got tearing mad because Lizzie's father wouldn't let him marry her and had laid down the law. They fought then and there. David went out and picked up an axe in the back of the shed and came in and destroyed both of them before anybody could say "boo!" '
Do these sound like the words of a well educated Doctor of Biochemistry?
She said he 'killed them in a fit of fury. David got tearing mad because Lizzie's father wouldn't let him marry her and had laid down the law. They fought then and there. David went out and picked up an axe in the back of the shed and came in and destroyed both of them before anybody could say "boo!" '
Do these sound like the words of a well educated Doctor of Biochemistry?
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Kat
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diana
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why David?
I agree about the difficulty surrounding conspiracies. And in the case of David Anthony an awful lot of people needed to keep silent all those years -- the Anthony family, John Cameron, Maggie Jonsson, Bridget -- maybe Nora Donahue.... (Dr. Cameron is vague as far as Nora Donahue is concerned. At times she confuses Nora with Bridget –so whether there are two or three maids involved here is unclear.) And in addition to all these people is a woman named Flora Hood, who Ruby claimed became privy to the whole story when caring for Maggie Cameron post 1925.
Aside from this, though -- one of the more intriguing aspects of Ruby Cameron's story is, if it is fabricated, why did Ruby choose David Anthony as the villain?
It does appear from research done by reporter Kate Boylan, that Ruby's parents might have worked for the Anthony's. Boylan writes that according to an 1892 city directory, John Cameron boarded at 88 Davol Street and David M. Anthony owned property from numbers 83 through 89 Davol. The implication being that Cameron lived in Company housing belonging to the meat company, I guess. So a connection between the Camerons and the Anthonys may have existed.
But the connection between Lizzie and David is far more tenuous. At this point we only have Ruby's word that the two were involved. And in a town where supposedly Lizzie accompanying the family doctor to church set tongues wagging -- it seems hard to believe that if there was any kind of a liaison between Lizzie and David, no one else ever mentioned it.
Aside from this, though -- one of the more intriguing aspects of Ruby Cameron's story is, if it is fabricated, why did Ruby choose David Anthony as the villain?
It does appear from research done by reporter Kate Boylan, that Ruby's parents might have worked for the Anthony's. Boylan writes that according to an 1892 city directory, John Cameron boarded at 88 Davol Street and David M. Anthony owned property from numbers 83 through 89 Davol. The implication being that Cameron lived in Company housing belonging to the meat company, I guess. So a connection between the Camerons and the Anthonys may have existed.
But the connection between Lizzie and David is far more tenuous. At this point we only have Ruby's word that the two were involved. And in a town where supposedly Lizzie accompanying the family doctor to church set tongues wagging -- it seems hard to believe that if there was any kind of a liaison between Lizzie and David, no one else ever mentioned it.
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Harry
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Yes, I don't think Lizzie would stand trial for anyone. We are not talking a shoplifting charge here but a double homicide punishable by death. Although I don't think she would have been hung if found guilty, a life sentence in prison or the insane asylum would in Lizzie's case, be worse.
I thought there was an age difference between David Anthony and Lizzie with Lizzie being more than a few years older. I can't find the posts where that was discussed.
At first I thought that was a reason Andrew would have been opposed to a matchup between the two. But in looking at Andrew's parents, Phebe Davenport was born in 1789 and Abraham in 1798 making her 9 years older.
Then his sister, Lurana, was 2-1/2 years older than Hiram C. Harrington. That would make it kinda hard for Andrew to object for that reason.
I thought there was an age difference between David Anthony and Lizzie with Lizzie being more than a few years older. I can't find the posts where that was discussed.
At first I thought that was a reason Andrew would have been opposed to a matchup between the two. But in looking at Andrew's parents, Phebe Davenport was born in 1789 and Abraham in 1798 making her 9 years older.
Then his sister, Lurana, was 2-1/2 years older than Hiram C. Harrington. That would make it kinda hard for Andrew to object for that reason.
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FairhavenGuy
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Kat
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Historian rejects theory of slayings
By Marshall Rothman, Herald News. No date. Probably January, 1985.
..."None of the thories old or new, make much of an impression on Mrs. Florence Brigham, curator of the Fall River Historical Society and perhaps the city's most authoritative historian, and that includes the most recently put forth premise that the young spinster [Lizzie Borden] stood trial to protect a previoulsy unnamed suitor who, a Maine author now alleges, killed Lizzie's father and stepmother in furious fit after being denied her hand in marriage.
Mrs. Brigham dismisses the latest theory as 'one more person who wants to make a buck.'"
..." Mrs. Brigham, to whom Miss Cameron has written seeking photos in connection with the case, remains skeptical of the new account of what transpired on that sweltering Aug. 4 in 1892 when the Bordens were found hacked to death.
'I don't know why, after all these years, this happens to come up.' said Mrs. Brigham in a telephone interview today.
The historian said one David Anthony who comes to mind 'would have been too young' to have been Lizzie's suitor, but, she added, in the interest of historical research, an Anthony family member who she would not name, is checking the family's genealogy for other possibilities.
'I've always felt no one else could have done it except Lizzie' said Mrs. Brigham, who suggests that Lizzie killed her parents because she feared her stepmother's influence would lead to the disinheritence of both herself and her sister, Emma.
"Money often is a motive,' said Mrs. Brigham, who numbers the inquiries into the Borden slaying in the 'thousands' over the years.
Additionally, two recent books with the same title, 'Lizzie'- one a novel and one purporting to be fact - make new efforts at solving the crime that eluded some of the best legal minds of the Victoriam era.
'The fact that she was found not guilty means that legally, technically she didn't do it. So the question remains, who did?' says Jules Ryckebusch, chairman of the English Department at Bristol Community College in Fall River in an recent interview with the Associated Press.
...There is even one book which suggests that Lizzie murdered her stepmother with a candlestick holder after she was surprised in a lesbian embrace with the family maid, Bridget Sullivan, and then hacked her father up with a hatchet to keep him from turning her in.
Another theory is that Lizzie's inscrutable older sister, Emma, committed the crimes."
-- These are Florence Brigham's opinions, which seem pretty interesting- and the fact that an Anthony family member existed ready to look into the genealogy.
About the age difference. Anthony may have been 22 when the murders occurred, but we are also not taking into account how long they were friends or lovers prior to 1892. He may have been willing to marry at 22, but he may have been romancing Lizzie for a year or several years prior. That might make the relationship- if there was one- starting as early as his being 19 or 20. That seems a huge age difference in 1892 ( but maybe not so much in 1792).
By Marshall Rothman, Herald News. No date. Probably January, 1985.
..."None of the thories old or new, make much of an impression on Mrs. Florence Brigham, curator of the Fall River Historical Society and perhaps the city's most authoritative historian, and that includes the most recently put forth premise that the young spinster [Lizzie Borden] stood trial to protect a previoulsy unnamed suitor who, a Maine author now alleges, killed Lizzie's father and stepmother in furious fit after being denied her hand in marriage.
Mrs. Brigham dismisses the latest theory as 'one more person who wants to make a buck.'"
..." Mrs. Brigham, to whom Miss Cameron has written seeking photos in connection with the case, remains skeptical of the new account of what transpired on that sweltering Aug. 4 in 1892 when the Bordens were found hacked to death.
'I don't know why, after all these years, this happens to come up.' said Mrs. Brigham in a telephone interview today.
The historian said one David Anthony who comes to mind 'would have been too young' to have been Lizzie's suitor, but, she added, in the interest of historical research, an Anthony family member who she would not name, is checking the family's genealogy for other possibilities.
'I've always felt no one else could have done it except Lizzie' said Mrs. Brigham, who suggests that Lizzie killed her parents because she feared her stepmother's influence would lead to the disinheritence of both herself and her sister, Emma.
"Money often is a motive,' said Mrs. Brigham, who numbers the inquiries into the Borden slaying in the 'thousands' over the years.
Additionally, two recent books with the same title, 'Lizzie'- one a novel and one purporting to be fact - make new efforts at solving the crime that eluded some of the best legal minds of the Victoriam era.
'The fact that she was found not guilty means that legally, technically she didn't do it. So the question remains, who did?' says Jules Ryckebusch, chairman of the English Department at Bristol Community College in Fall River in an recent interview with the Associated Press.
...There is even one book which suggests that Lizzie murdered her stepmother with a candlestick holder after she was surprised in a lesbian embrace with the family maid, Bridget Sullivan, and then hacked her father up with a hatchet to keep him from turning her in.
Another theory is that Lizzie's inscrutable older sister, Emma, committed the crimes."
-- These are Florence Brigham's opinions, which seem pretty interesting- and the fact that an Anthony family member existed ready to look into the genealogy.
About the age difference. Anthony may have been 22 when the murders occurred, but we are also not taking into account how long they were friends or lovers prior to 1892. He may have been willing to marry at 22, but he may have been romancing Lizzie for a year or several years prior. That might make the relationship- if there was one- starting as early as his being 19 or 20. That seems a huge age difference in 1892 ( but maybe not so much in 1792).
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Gramma
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Hi folks! Sorry, but Gramma was vacationing! The weather is nice and we are "outdoor" people so my computer time is less frequent.
Ruby was writing her memoirs but had not finished them. If I were to guess I would say they were about half done.
There are are a number of points argued in the papers at the time that you have picked up on. At least one, though, needs to be clarified. Ruby WAS nursing Lizzie herself. She was the one who recommended Flora as a replacement for herself after she had decided to leave when the stress became too much on her mother.
As for Ruby fabricating the story, I cannot say anything more than when I first met her she convinced me of her sincerity and I do not doubt her story for a second. I understand that when you get a story secondhand you do not see the person's eyes nor see their mannerisms when talking so you have nothing directly on which to judge the veracity of their statements. I not only met Ruby, I sat with her for hours on many occasions and the essence of her story never wavered. She remembered those trips on the motorcycle, like most elderly people, as if it were yesterday. She knew what ate at her mother for all those years and finally pushed her over the line. Those tears were real when talking of her parents. As we talked, telling stories of Fall River, there were many times we astounded each other with coincidences that connected our lives yet we had never met.
Gramma
Ruby was writing her memoirs but had not finished them. If I were to guess I would say they were about half done.
There are are a number of points argued in the papers at the time that you have picked up on. At least one, though, needs to be clarified. Ruby WAS nursing Lizzie herself. She was the one who recommended Flora as a replacement for herself after she had decided to leave when the stress became too much on her mother.
As for Ruby fabricating the story, I cannot say anything more than when I first met her she convinced me of her sincerity and I do not doubt her story for a second. I understand that when you get a story secondhand you do not see the person's eyes nor see their mannerisms when talking so you have nothing directly on which to judge the veracity of their statements. I not only met Ruby, I sat with her for hours on many occasions and the essence of her story never wavered. She remembered those trips on the motorcycle, like most elderly people, as if it were yesterday. She knew what ate at her mother for all those years and finally pushed her over the line. Those tears were real when talking of her parents. As we talked, telling stories of Fall River, there were many times we astounded each other with coincidences that connected our lives yet we had never met.
Gramma
She was acquitted!
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diana
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Good to see you back, Gramma!
I hadn't realized that Flora Hood looked after Lizzie. I had thought that Flora was Maggie Cameron's nurse after reading the following:
"... I hired a woman to take care of Mother. Then it was that Nora and this woman, Flora Hood, told what Nora and Mother remembered of that horrible murder. Nora saw David, livid with rage, go to the woodshed, grab the axe, and murder both Mr. and Mrs. Borden." (A letter from Ruby Cameron to an Ellsworth American reporter as it appeared in the Sunday Standard-Times, New Bedford, Mass., Jan. 13, 1985).
That's the only reference I find to Flora Hood in the Ruby materials we have. It appears to be Ruby's exact words as it is purported to be a letter directly from her as opposed to an interview transcribed by a reporter.
Bernie Sullivan's article in the Providence Journal-Bulletin reports Ruby saying that the nurse who took over Lizzie's care was named Doris Humphrey -- and that she got $10,000 in Lizzie's will.
Whoever she nursed -- if Flora Hood knew the true story of the Borden murders around the time of Lizzie's death -- I bet she was sorely tempted to capitalize on that knowledge....
I hadn't realized that Flora Hood looked after Lizzie. I had thought that Flora was Maggie Cameron's nurse after reading the following:
"... I hired a woman to take care of Mother. Then it was that Nora and this woman, Flora Hood, told what Nora and Mother remembered of that horrible murder. Nora saw David, livid with rage, go to the woodshed, grab the axe, and murder both Mr. and Mrs. Borden." (A letter from Ruby Cameron to an Ellsworth American reporter as it appeared in the Sunday Standard-Times, New Bedford, Mass., Jan. 13, 1985).
That's the only reference I find to Flora Hood in the Ruby materials we have. It appears to be Ruby's exact words as it is purported to be a letter directly from her as opposed to an interview transcribed by a reporter.
Bernie Sullivan's article in the Providence Journal-Bulletin reports Ruby saying that the nurse who took over Lizzie's care was named Doris Humphrey -- and that she got $10,000 in Lizzie's will.
Whoever she nursed -- if Flora Hood knew the true story of the Borden murders around the time of Lizzie's death -- I bet she was sorely tempted to capitalize on that knowledge....
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Haulover
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i've tried but am still confused about who nursed who, etc.
what bothers me about this the most is AGAIN (Arnold Brown) there is the case of missing memoirs.
and also -- for such intimate long talks with the one who had the story -- why is there such a lack of detail -- unless such essentials are being saved for a book?
what bothers me about this the most is AGAIN (Arnold Brown) there is the case of missing memoirs.
and also -- for such intimate long talks with the one who had the story -- why is there such a lack of detail -- unless such essentials are being saved for a book?
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diana
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I suppose we can't discount the idea that Lizzie and David knew each other through David's uncle, Charles W. Anthony.
The Fall River Evening News reported that the sloop yacht Mabel F. Swift owned by Charles Anthony was at Marion on Monday, July 25, 1892 -- "where the following ladies from Fall River are stopping at Blake's Point: Mrs. James F. Jackson, Misses Edith Jackon, Jennie Stowell, Anna C. Holmes, Mary L, Holmes, Mabel H. Remington, Louise O. Remington, Alice Buck, Isabelle Fraser, Louise H. Handy, Elizabeth Johnston, Annie C. Bush, and Lizzie A. Borden." (Source: Rebello, 62)
Although David is not mentioned in the list of guests on the yacht -- the yacht and the "ladies" are mentioned in the same item. Does this indicate any kind of social parity, I wonder?
This would have been 10 days prior to the murders.
Can't you just see Lizzie, cheeks slightly tinged with summer color -- smiling conspiratorially at David in his yachting whites or whatever?
The Fall River Evening News reported that the sloop yacht Mabel F. Swift owned by Charles Anthony was at Marion on Monday, July 25, 1892 -- "where the following ladies from Fall River are stopping at Blake's Point: Mrs. James F. Jackson, Misses Edith Jackon, Jennie Stowell, Anna C. Holmes, Mary L, Holmes, Mabel H. Remington, Louise O. Remington, Alice Buck, Isabelle Fraser, Louise H. Handy, Elizabeth Johnston, Annie C. Bush, and Lizzie A. Borden." (Source: Rebello, 62)
Although David is not mentioned in the list of guests on the yacht -- the yacht and the "ladies" are mentioned in the same item. Does this indicate any kind of social parity, I wonder?
This would have been 10 days prior to the murders.
Can't you just see Lizzie, cheeks slightly tinged with summer color -- smiling conspiratorially at David in his yachting whites or whatever?
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Kat
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This topic was revised privately, so to speak, between Doug-Oh and myself trying to find the Horton link that Cynthia cited.
It's an interesting assessment of the boyfriend-did-it theory as told by Ruby Cameron.
To add to this discussion, where it is asked what connection David Anthony might have had to Lizzie Borden, I'd like to point out that it's been found in the newspapers that supposedly David Anthony (Sr.? or Jr.?) bought Morse's father's house "at the foot of Cherry Street."
--(probably) Fall River Daily Globe, Aug. 5, 1892.
In researching the Ruby Cameron story for The Hatchet, I was commissioned to find out Ruby's credentials as a Doctor of Biochemistry. It was part of the article Joe produced, and what was found was that there was no record of Ruby having the degree she claimed to have from the Institution she named.
See Hatchet issue Oct/Nov. 2004.
It's an interesting assessment of the boyfriend-did-it theory as told by Ruby Cameron.
To add to this discussion, where it is asked what connection David Anthony might have had to Lizzie Borden, I'd like to point out that it's been found in the newspapers that supposedly David Anthony (Sr.? or Jr.?) bought Morse's father's house "at the foot of Cherry Street."
--(probably) Fall River Daily Globe, Aug. 5, 1892.
In researching the Ruby Cameron story for The Hatchet, I was commissioned to find out Ruby's credentials as a Doctor of Biochemistry. It was part of the article Joe produced, and what was found was that there was no record of Ruby having the degree she claimed to have from the Institution she named.
See Hatchet issue Oct/Nov. 2004.
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twinsrwe
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DWilly
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twinsrwe @ Sat Sep 10, 2005 10:51 pm wrote:If Lizzie boyfriend, David, did kill Abby and Andrew because Andrew would not let him marry Lizzie, then why didn't the two of them marry after both of her parents were dead?
Sorry, love the guy or not, personally I wouldn't go to jail for anyone!
Was Lizzie looking at just going to jail or was she facing possible execution if convicted?
Anyway, other than what you just posted I have two other problems with this theory:
1. In what little I have read so far it seems that no one else in Fall Rivers seemed to know about David. Especially, Lizzie's friends. They had reporters checking around town and no one came up with David.
2. Why would Andrew object to David? I would imagine Abby would have been thrilled at the thought of getting rid of Lizzie. I could well imagine Abby telling Andrew to back off and let Lizzie go. Heck, the woman would have been dancing on the table top at the thought of Lizzie moving out.
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doug65oh
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At that time, Murder in the first degree was a capital offense in Massachusetts, so at least theoretically, Lizzie could well have found herself on the wrong end of a rope. She did however, have one thing in her favor: Apparently the last woman to be hanged in the Commonwealth prior to 1893 was one Rachel Wall, who, was hanged for Robbery on January 8, 1789 in Suffolk County.
http://users.bestweb.net/~rg/execution/ ... theast.htm
However, I believe the presiding justice had discretion over the sentence imposed - or at least some discretion I should say.
http://users.bestweb.net/~rg/execution/ ... theast.htm
However, I believe the presiding justice had discretion over the sentence imposed - or at least some discretion I should say.
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twinsrwe
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Kat
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DWilly
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Kat @ Sun Sep 11, 2005 3:42 am wrote:What if it was really Emma who objected and Lizzie fibbed to David? She may have made a pact long ago in those long cold nights with Emma in their rooms, whispering, that they would never marry and promised to stay together forever and not fall under the *ownership* of another male ever again?
This is just my opinion but personally I can't see Emma thinking along those lines. Lizzie maybe, but not Emma. Also, I can't see Lizzie doing anything she didn't want to do. If and I do mean a big IF she was involved with David and she had wanted to marry him she would have. Personally, I don't think Lizzie had any plans to marry.
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nbcatlover
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David Anthony was a wheelman. The day Charles Anthony's sloop was reported in Marion, the big racing event started in Cottage City, Martha's Vineyard with 250 wheelmen attending (including reports of David Anthony).
Wheelmen, in some circles, were the equivalent of Hell's Angels to some. Their dress was daring and they were considered to be of loose morals.
Interestingly, Mr. Trickey from the Globe who accepted the so-called "false story" of a pregnant Lizzie and her lover was a member of the Press Cycle Club (see Rebello).
Wheelmen, in some circles, were the equivalent of Hell's Angels to some. Their dress was daring and they were considered to be of loose morals.
Interestingly, Mr. Trickey from the Globe who accepted the so-called "false story" of a pregnant Lizzie and her lover was a member of the Press Cycle Club (see Rebello).
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nbcatlover
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This following link pertains to members of the Anthony family who were considered Rhode Islanders. They, like the owners of the New Bedford "Evening Standard", are relatives of David Anthony. They were a family with their own share of clout in the region.
http://www.rootsweb.com/~rigenweb/article49.html
You need to hit the underlined Continued and scroll down for more. There are about 3 pages of prominent Anthonys. The list ends with the generation before David M. Anthony Sr. as the Rhode Island boundary changed and the successful members were now located in Massachusetts.
I haven't had time to hit Probate Records, but I am curious about the size of the estate David M. Anthony Sr. left to David and his 2 siblings. I have seen David's and Harold's houses on Bay Pointe Road on the water at the base of Gardner's neck. They weren't poor. There is a possibility that they were better off than Andrew Borden.
David's house was built in 1895 and was an easy bicycle ride (David) or pony cart ride (Lizzie) from the Borden Farm, which Lizzie and Emma kept after the murders. They didn't have a lot of neighbors on Gardner's Neck who weren't related to one of them.
http://www.rootsweb.com/~rigenweb/article49.html
You need to hit the underlined Continued and scroll down for more. There are about 3 pages of prominent Anthonys. The list ends with the generation before David M. Anthony Sr. as the Rhode Island boundary changed and the successful members were now located in Massachusetts.
I haven't had time to hit Probate Records, but I am curious about the size of the estate David M. Anthony Sr. left to David and his 2 siblings. I have seen David's and Harold's houses on Bay Pointe Road on the water at the base of Gardner's neck. They weren't poor. There is a possibility that they were better off than Andrew Borden.
David's house was built in 1895 and was an easy bicycle ride (David) or pony cart ride (Lizzie) from the Borden Farm, which Lizzie and Emma kept after the murders. They didn't have a lot of neighbors on Gardner's Neck who weren't related to one of them.
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Kat
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It looks like in Rebello, Land Transactions, that the Swansea farm was sold to Preserved Gardner, p. 557.
Thanks for the info, Cynthia.
I can see Lizzie liking a guy who was a bit edgy- he certainly was a bit different. Ruby said that people thought of him as crazy and she said just crazy about motorcycles. Yet she thought he killed!
I think Nance was a bit edgy too. Maybe that's what attracted Lizzie in a person.
Otherwise, I can easily see Emma's influence in Lizzie never marrying. I can also see Lizzie as not wanting to give her life and property to any man after Andrew's dominance.
Thanks for the info, Cynthia.
I can see Lizzie liking a guy who was a bit edgy- he certainly was a bit different. Ruby said that people thought of him as crazy and she said just crazy about motorcycles. Yet she thought he killed!
I think Nance was a bit edgy too. Maybe that's what attracted Lizzie in a person.
Otherwise, I can easily see Emma's influence in Lizzie never marrying. I can also see Lizzie as not wanting to give her life and property to any man after Andrew's dominance.
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StevenB
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Ruby Cameron
Plus in Rubies story, the house she claims she was taken too in 1910 was the Second Street Home, which Lizzie left 17 years before!
StevenB
StevenB
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Kat
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RayS
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This story is interesting to those who want all the Legends of Lizzie.Audrey @ Sat Jun 12, 2004 11:33 pm wrote:And another thing...
She said he 'killed them in a fit of fury. David got tearing mad because Lizzie's father wouldn't let him marry her and had laid down the law. They fought then and there. David went out and picked up an axe in the back of the shed and came in and destroyed both of them before anybody could say "boo!" '
Do these sound like the words of a well educated Doctor of Biochemistry?
The known facts about the interval of death says it ain't so.
Also, there is no reason why the Ruling Class would fix the jury to let Lizzie off in this case. IMO
It does provide a good mental exercise to argue from the fact to disprove this story.
The significance of this story is that it may have kicked off the discussion between Lewis 'Pete' Peterson and Arnold Brown, thus leading to the Henry Hathaway memoirs and Brown's book on this case.
I guess an old dog has learned some new trick?
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
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RayS
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Smudgeman
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It's a shame you and yours can't produce ANY memoirs. Geez, he spent 2 years on it, where are they?RayS @ Mon Dec 04, 2006 7:06 pm wrote:This story is interesting to those who want all the Legends of Lizzie.Audrey @ Sat Jun 12, 2004 11:33 pm wrote:And another thing...
She said he 'killed them in a fit of fury. David got tearing mad because Lizzie's father wouldn't let him marry her and had laid down the law. They fought then and there. David went out and picked up an axe in the back of the shed and came in and destroyed both of them before anybody could say "boo!" '
Do these sound like the words of a well educated Doctor of Biochemistry?
The known facts about the interval of death says it ain't so.
Also, there is no reason why the Ruling Class would fix the jury to let Lizzie off in this case. IMO
It does provide a good mental exercise to argue from the fact to disprove this story.
The significance of this story is that it may have kicked off the discussion between Lewis 'Pete' Peterson and Arnold Brown, thus leading to the Henry Hathaway memoirs and Brown's book on this case.
I guess an old dog has learned some new trick?
"I'd luv to kiss ya, but I just washed my hair"
Bette Davis
Bette Davis
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RayS
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Those memoirs were written in the late 1970s, just 30 years ago. I have no idea who has them now, or if anyone does.
Given Brown's book, anyone else here can follow his lead.
You don't have to be a Woodward-Bernstein to do this, if you live in the area. Or have the time and money.
One starting point. Brown mentions that Hathaway told his story in the 1950s (?). Any reports in the newspapers could make an interesting article.
Given Brown's book, anyone else here can follow his lead.
You don't have to be a Woodward-Bernstein to do this, if you live in the area. Or have the time and money.
One starting point. Brown mentions that Hathaway told his story in the 1950s (?). Any reports in the newspapers could make an interesting article.
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
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Smudgeman
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RayS
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You are totally wrong again. I accept Brown's solution to this crime.Smudgeman @ Wed Dec 06, 2006 8:24 pm wrote:I think it is only fitting that YOU track them down. It certainly is not my job, I do not subscribe to YOUR precious theory. If anyone else can follow his lead, shouldn't it be YOU?
I also know my limits. Perhaps a younger and more confident poster can do what he is asking of others. Follow your own advice.
I prefer to sit in my rocking chair, close to my meds.
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
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Inspector
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Re: More Ruby
The David Anthony theory is interesting, and thought provoking, but as I’ve given it a go again, and listening to this thread, it occurs to me….
If David was the culprit, and lost his temper, the scenes are too clean…so to speak.
No signs of struggle, and Andrew certainly wouldn’t be relaxing on the sofa during an argument, which was the situation when he was attacked.
Andrew would have locked the door after David headed to the shed/barn to get the ax, but we have no forced entry.
Abby running upstairs to the guest room doesn’t jive, as she should have shut and locked it.—no forced entry again—, or ran out the front door.
The crime scenes are more consistent in my mind, with those of stealth, and precise timing, and not of those, where one lost their temper, and reacted with adrenaline rushed rage.
If David was the culprit, and lost his temper, the scenes are too clean…so to speak.
No signs of struggle, and Andrew certainly wouldn’t be relaxing on the sofa during an argument, which was the situation when he was attacked.
Andrew would have locked the door after David headed to the shed/barn to get the ax, but we have no forced entry.
Abby running upstairs to the guest room doesn’t jive, as she should have shut and locked it.—no forced entry again—, or ran out the front door.
The crime scenes are more consistent in my mind, with those of stealth, and precise timing, and not of those, where one lost their temper, and reacted with adrenaline rushed rage.
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camgarsky4
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Re: More Ruby
Zero defensive wounds on either victim. Sure doesn't seem likely there was a confrontation in either instance.