Borden Family Plot Marker

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 12:33 pm

This has prbably been discussed in the past, but I have been wondering why there is an "s" on the end of Lizzie's middle name on the family plot marker ? The first time I visited the grave, I was so excited just to be there I didn't even notice it. But, when I was doing some grave rubbings on my second visit, I did notice. I am sure somebody in this forum can clear this up for me...please ?

Tracy...

Mark A. · Post by **Mark A.** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 3:45 pm

Shame on you Tracy. grave rubbings are illegal in Massachusetts!

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 4:21 pm

My most sincere apologies to the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. I promise it won't happen again. The men who were working in the area didn't say anything, so I figured it was OK. I should have asked them first however. Again, I am very sorry and very embarrassed.

Tracy...

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 4:43 pm

Too late Tracy. I've already called Marshal Hilliard and you'll be on your way to the Taunton jail ASAP. And no outside meals for you. Fish hash for breakfast.

Seriously, we've discussed the "s" in the past. See this thread in the archives: http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Archi ... BLHand.htm

Her burial instructions, written in her own hand, designate how her name is to appear on her headstone as well as the family stone. Look in the upper right hand portion of this photo. I believe there is an "s" but it's not clear.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 4:58 pm

How would someone/visitor know this law about cemetaries in Massachusetts? Do they put a sign up?

Actually there was a theory that the middle names of women in Fall River *back then* were the first names or family names of men in their family (Hoffman).

From LABVM&L, Resources, LBQ content search:
" 'An Anonymous Letter.' Lizzie Borden Quarterly VI.3 (July 1999): 3.
Letter to the Editor from Maui, Hawaii, in which the writer points out that Lizzie Borden's middle name could indeed be 'Andrews' as carved on the Borden tombstone, instead of the long-believed 'Andrew.' "

From that issue:
"(Editor's Note:...On page 8 of the January, 1999 'LBQ', author Paull Dennis Hoffman talked about Miss Lizbeth's middle name. Dr. Hoffman, myself (the Editor), and many others have always assumed that the stone mason made a mistake while carving 'Andrews' instead of 'Andrew' on the Borden tombstone. Perhaps he did, however, our anonymous friend points out another possibility.")

The letter goes on to include the information that Lizbeth's GreatAunt was Harriet ANDREWS.

This Editor's note gives us the issue date of Hoffman's article in the January, 1999 LBQ.

Do you have any of these?

Hoffman discusses Radin's and Spiering's musings on the name and shows us that Victoria Lincoln says Lizzie "forsook her given name Lizzie for the more formal Lizbeth and had her middle name inscribed 'Andrews' which, stated Lincoln gave it a more dignified and therefore a more upper-class sound."

--So you are among the *greats* in questioning this!

Thanks Harry for the Burial Instructions!

[Hey FairhavenGuy! I think I now hold the record for Edits! That's what happens when I take a nap... ]

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 5:17 pm

I am ready to go now.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 5:26 pm

Kat and Harry...thank you for all of that info...especially the resources ! I have not seen this info before. Kat, I did not see a sign about "no rubbings", but that deosn't mean it wasn't there somewhere. Harry, those burial instructions are great...thank you. I am just getting into my Rebello book...are they in there, or somewhere else ?

It seems like a thing Lizzie might do...change Andrew to Andrews to sound more "up on the hill". I would think that if the stone mason had made a mistake, it would have been corrected long ago.

Thanks again Kat and Harry !

Tracy...

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 5:30 pm

OK Harry...I just checked out that archive you suggested. It's great. The link to the Lizzie font is interesting...night have to think about that one.

Tracy...

Doug · Post by **Doug** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 5:55 pm

The official records from 1892-93 refer to Lizzie Andrew (no "s") Borden. Hosea Knowlton asked Lizzie her name when he questioned her at the inquest and her reply was recorded as Lizzie Andrew Borden. I believe Lizzie's real middle name had no "s" at the end.

Nancie · Post by **Nancie** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 7:27 pm

nice knowing you Tracy, hope you have a pretty
lunch pail to bring to the jail.

Mark A. · Post by **Mark A.** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 7:32 pm

I only learned about the grave rubbings being illegal in Massachusetts from a book on researching cemeteries. The author tells how it's illegal in Mass. on one page then goes on to say that she treasures her grave rubbing of LIZZIE BORDEN's gravestone!!! I found that funny.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 9:57 pm

It's smart to go to the official documents for a name.

However... Several peoples names are misspelled in those sources. Pettee for one. Winward/Winwood for another.
How about the indictment. If that were wrong would the person walk?

(I'm pretty sure she was Lizzie Andrew, yes indeed! What she has carved on her stone is up to her. I heard a lot of stones are wrong after all.)

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:21 pm

I think that she chose Andrews just as she chose Lizbeth. I can't believe she was ever happy with a male middle name.

lydiapinkham · Post by **lydiapinkham** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:24 pm

Do we have any late clear signatures that show the full middle name? (I know she generally signed with the scarlet letter "A.") She never bothered with a legal name change of her first name, did she? I wonder if she did the same with the middle to strengthen the connection with the ancestral surname.

It seems that people often changed spellings in those days without bothering to do so legally. Hence the confusion many of us face when tracing ancestors. I know that my mother's family informally dropped an "s" at the end of their name, then sometimes restored it--apparently on whim. We have no living relatives to untangle this knot, but from what I've seen online, it is a fairly common problem.

--Lyddie

lydiapinkham · Post by **lydiapinkham** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:28 pm

Speaking of official documents. Those can be disastrous too! My father-in-law was named "Homer," but the attending physician was dyslexic. Hence, because of a birth certificate error, he became "Ohmer." No wonder, except in the service, he has always gone by his middle name.

--Lyddie

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:41 pm

That's the only time I saw her write her middle name. Per the Inquest she was "so Christened" Lizzie Andrew Borden.

I made several attempts to contact the handwriting expert who had the document with no result. I do remember him saying that he was not the owner.

Nancie · Post by **Nancie** » Wed Jun 16, 2004 1:33 pm

i changed my name from Nancy to Nancie when I
was in the 5th grade (not "legally). It was fine with my parents and everyone, my school records, drivers license, marraige certificate everything Nancie. In Vermont for 25 years everything still fine
as Nancie. Then, moving back to Joisey 5 years ago, they wouldn't let me be Nancie at the DMV! My
drivers license is now Nancy to match my birth certificate. So I am New Joisey Nancy but my soul
is still Nancie. I imagine Lizzie felt the same way about her name and wanted to be just a little different to reflect her personality.

Bob Gutowski · Post by **Bob Gutowski** » Thu Jun 17, 2004 11:05 am

But whoever filled out her birth certificate spelled the Biblical name incorrectly, and Orpah became Oprah.

Guilty or not, I find Lizzie's altering of her name to be quite touching.

"Call me Lizbeth."

Tracy, don't LICK the grave marker, either!

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Thu Jun 17, 2004 1:30 pm

Is there a copy of Lizzie's birth certificate somewhere ? That would be great to see !

Tracy...

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