Headstones or footstones?

[Harry]

Whenever you visit the Borden plot in Oak Grove you are faced with the question of which way the bodies are buried. At least I am.

Below is a little drawing to help illustrate what I'm asking. I'm not 100% sure I have the proper order of stones in the lower row but that doesn't matter. As you stand looking at the stones the initials or names can be read. I have put an H where the head may lie and an F where the feet may lie. That would be true if they are headstones even though the stones would appear needed to be turned around.

If you switch the positions of the head and feet then they would be footstones. This would seem more logical. But Lizzie said she wanted to be buried at her father's feet which would not be possible if that is the direction he lies. Am I taking Lizzie's statement too literally?

[doug65oh]

Nope, you're okay Harry. In fact I think I see exactly where your quandry is there. If the graves are laid out in the fashion you indicate there, I can't for the life of me see any way the "at father's feet" instruction could be carried out without throwing the "geometry" to the winds. That of course is not unheard of but would be - at least so far as my thought takes me - far more likely in a small (ie. private) cemetary than on a public ground.

Have I understood you correctly, or did I catch the wrong streetcar?

[Harry]

Yes, Doug, I think you understand correctly.

This photo shows the position of the stones:



I can't believe they are buried to the right of the stones because the 4 stones on the right side of the plot are near the pathway. Hopefully they are not buried beneath that!

My problem has been if you stood at where I show the feet and look down at the stones the engravings on the stones are upside down.

[doug65oh]

I see exactly what you mean now. The only person comes to mind offhand who might resolve the question finally would be the cemetery superintendent, or a staff member perhaps.

[Shelley]

The cemetery folks (The director) will tell you they are- headstones, which yes, makes us guilty of walking on the bodies of Andrew and Co. and Lizzie did not get her wish about her Father's Feet. She is standing on his head if it were on the top of his torso that is! I will try to dig out Prof. Starr's ground penetrating sonar scans and try to confirm this.

[doug65oh]

(Or Shelley might even know.)

[Shelley]

Comes from hanging out in cemeteries too much Doug- I gotta get a life! I called Jim Starrs to see if he would let me post one of his scans-waiting for an answer. I recall he pointed out to us that Andrew's coffin has a collapsed lid-so he is dust. Abby's looked intact back in 1992. Both are buried in the old fashioned "Dracula-style" caskets, wider at the shoulder. Funeral accoutrements had come a long way by 1927 for Emma and Lizzie and I believe their graves have liners.

[doug65oh]

Hey, you never know, Shelley - you might just find a life on ebay. (They do have everything...so goes the rumor anyway.)

I thought it might be a "librarian" sort of thing, or a symptom anyway. I did the reference librarian trick myself for awhile some years back, and am still surprised at times what falls out of this drotted lint-trap of a brain!

[RayS]

A coffin is broad at the shoulders, narrowing to the feet. Minimal use of wood.
A casket is a rectangular box. Minimal use of labor.
IMO

[Harry]

Thank you, Shelley. It will be interesting to see if Starrs let's you use his information.

Good grief, I take it from your post that they are buried beneath that pathway! The photograph in the newspaper at Lizzie's burial where the workmen are tamping the earth shows that same path in front of the stones.

I guess they didn't use those patented caskets that Borden & Almy advertised in the newspaper. They were straight on both sides. Just recently on ebay someone was selling the advertisement that was in the newspaper.

Lizzie left instructions that her grave was to be bricked.

[mbhenty]

Thanks for the little drawing Harry. But where did you place your colored crayons?

No: really, your drawing makes sense to me from what I was told as a young boy.

The reason the bodies are the why they are is so when you stand at the grave you do not stand on the grave itself, over your loved one. Also, when you kneel to pray you do so at their head, not thier feet.

[theebmonique]

Wow...all this time and with my two trips to Oak Grove, I thought the bodies were in the position that Harry's drawing suggests. I figured the headstones had just been turned around. Also, I thought this since Lizzie's wish was to be buried at Andrew's feet. Interesting.





Tracy...

[Harry]

Tracy, I think the drawing is probably correct but let's wait and see if Shelley turns up anything different.

I was looking at the plot layout of the Manchester graves and they are the same way. The stones are on the edge of the road and the engavings face the road. The graves are behind the stones.

Michaels post makes sense (even though he pokes fun at my art work ).

Kat and I were also speculating whether this could be the situation whenever the stones were on a road or path.

[Shelley]

I did ask the director of the cemetery and he was adamant they are headstones- but then, whenever anyone asks about the Bordens, a weary expressions comes over their faces. So maybe they just wanted to get rid of me and my questions. I go to the cemetery every weekend and naturally all the guests I take out there ask this same question, so I have asked people I thought should know. Starrs was careful about his scans because they show the heads separate from the bodies, in small boxes, three feet down and that location is not one the cemetery wishes known as lunatics might decide to dig them up for a lark.
We will get an answer soon to this one!

[Shelley]

Scrolling up to that photo above- I'd love to know what that granite footing thing is just under the oak tree! I think I will go ask to see the plot map Friday.

[Susan]

I hope you are correct with your placement of the Bordens, Harry, that just seems so disrespectful and sacrilegious if they are placed beneath that path. And then the thought of all the money that Andrew probably paid for that burial plot. If the path is over the elder Bordens and was there in Lizzie's day, do you think she would have put up a fight with the powers that be who put it there? Knowing Lizzie's nature I can't picture her allowing that path to be put in over her family while she was alive.

[Shelley]

I have just heard from Dr. Starrs, and enjoyed a long conversation about our favorite topic. He is going to send a scan, and look over his notes again but confirms that the director is correct- those are headstones. The anomalies which show up buried shallower over Andrew and Abby's coffins, just over the area where a head ought to be are the skulls.

Dr. Starrs is retiring from teaching after this year at George Washington U.and will be coming out with a new book soon. I sent a scan of the grave site, and more information should be forthcoming in the next day or so- so yes, it would seem that we ARE walking over the coffins on that path. Lizzie did not get either of her wishes. He also said that those 2 sessions at the Borden plot were the best ground scans he ever did and uses them still in class. Would he come back to Fall River to speak? In a New York minute!

[Susan]

Thanks for all your legwork, Shelley. That is sad about the path, another indignity visited upon Andrew and Abby. And interesting about the skulls, not buried with the bodies as I've seen some authors write, but, buried at some later time. I wonder how soon after the trial that the skulls were finally laid to rest?

[Shelley]

Len Rebello also confirms they are headstones- so all three reliable sources are in accord. I guess maybe because the Almy stones are so close, the path could not swing farther to the south. The lot is so large, one would think something better would have been worked out. With no immediate relatives, I guess nobody is around to care. I plan a little meeting with the cemetery director this weekend. Too bad there is no nice black iron Victorian fence around the plot like the one directly to the north of the Borden lot.

[Harry]

That's awful! They shouldn't be allowed to do that. Makes me sorry I asked.

The 1927 photo shows the path there so it had to be placed there while Lizzie and Emma were alive.

Didn't Emma say Lizzie never visited the cemetery but sent flowers?

A BIG thank you, Shelley! Great effort on your part.

[Kat]

Well, this is odd.
Can't it be that the headstones are turned around, (facing ht\the path) yet still be headstones?
If that path is over the bodies, then they soon will be exposed, won't they?
And Lizbeth is not at Andrew's feet? She had the say so over where Andrew was buried. She was there.
Is this a matter of miscommunication or misunderstanding?
Also, it was my understanding that the heads were put at the feet, 2 feet down.

I've just reviewed the newspaper accounts from that time. I'm not saying all this was in there but the timing of these questions is a big coincidence. Len was even there for the Starrs scans I think he said.

I only am asking if it's possible the question was misunderstood?

[Shelley]

Yes, Len and Ed Thibault were there for the Starrs scans. There's no doubt I'm afraid about the heads being about 3 feet deep, and buried above the coffins at the spot heads would be-this part makes sense. I want to know what that granite footing thing is in the ground to the left of Alice's grave. That might explain a lot.

It would take a lot of walking to wear down the path 6 feet. Mostly I think we are troubled by the notion of walking over the dead. Lizzie did not get her grave bricked over either. I wonder if she wanted this because she had some concern for the security of her remains in the future?

On Halloween the cemetery is locked up promptly at 5 p.m. This is the ONLY night I have ever seen Oak Grove locked. I asked about it since I got locked in 2 years ago with 20 guests and had to call the police to "spring" us. They said they were worried about vandalism to the stones, and also that wackos might try to dig up either the skulls or Lizzie's headstone. Over the years I have cleaned off a lot of unbelievable stuff from that gravesite: a vial of blood and a vial of urine, voodoo fetishes, witchcraft paraphanalia, teletubbies, stuffed sharks, amulets, plastic flowers, Mardi Gras beads, notes, pinecones, -you name it. It amazes me nothing has been stolen although it looks like a few very small chips were chiseled off Lizzie and Emma's stones.

I wonder if that path has always been the entry into that lot. It lines up perfectly with that granite footing thing in the ground. Since the plot is on a substantial rise above street level on that hill, the north side, if you recall was too steep to crawl up. That path ends in the deep ditch along the street which someone from time to time puts a board over -ascending to that plot is always treacherous.

I am hoping Dr. Starrs allows one of his scans for us to use-he seemed very willing. In the meantime, I plan to pop in Friday and see the cemetery plot map at Oak Grove and pick the brain of the weary director. Funny, I was thinking recently how nice it would be to redirect that path from the south end where the incline is not so steep, and have a granite bench under the tree for visitors.

[Shelley]

Looking back through some newpaper clippings, Lizzie and Emma did not descend from the carriage and go over to the graves on Saturday the 6th. They left after the short service and returned home.
Then the coffins were put in the holding tomb for a week before the second autopsy was done at the little building on the left as you enter off Prospect Street through the arch. Some sources call this the ladies' waiting room. I will check the date of actual interment. So, Lizzie and Emma did not actually see the coffins buried and probably did not go visit the graves immediately. We know they did not know about the skull removals on the 11th. Some time may have elapsed before either one made a visit to the graves under the circumstances as there were townspeople hovering about the house and yard, and a seclusion was expected by custom after a death. I expect it was the job of Winward to supervise the layout of the coffins and the two Borden girls may not have had anything to do with the final positioning or knowledge of how it was done until it was done.

[Kat]

The newspapers stated the heads were 2 feet deep. They were even thinking of gettig a guard because once people found out how shallow the heads were they were afraid someone would attempt to disturb them.

I believe the bodies were not interred until the 16th.
I will give you source.

I understand no one got out at the grave -except Morse?- but surely they could see the location of the newly dug earth? The girls would know how much of the Borden plot there was and how it lay, land-wise, surely?
How do you know Lizzie's grave was not bricked? This all is shocking to me.

[Kat]

For anyone who wants the info (calendar included):

Here shows the date of the burial of the bodies. We know when Dolan testified at the Prelim, which started Aug. 25th. Also, Dolan is speaking of the *second* autopsy when he says he took the heads.

Prelim
Dr. Dolan
184+
Q. Have those bodies been interred?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When?
A. I do not know just what date it was; I think it was a week last Tuesday.

Page 185

Q. Did you remove anything from those bodies, or either of them?
A. Yes sir, I removed the skulls, the heads.
Q. The skulls?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When?
A. The day of the autopsy.
Q. For what purpose?
A. Because I was instructed so to do.

[Shelley]

Had Lizzie's grave been bricked over or sealed, surely this would have shown up in the ground scan. Well, I never have put too much faith in newspaper reporting. When Starrs said the heads were shallow, maybe half the depth of the coffins, there was a desire for the public not to know all details exactly for obvious reasons. I asked him yesterday if it was about maybe 3 feet. He said the two anomalies fit the bill exactly for two small receptacles which would adequately hold the skulls and they were buried over the tops of the head of each coffin where heads would be. To unearth the coffin in 1892 and open it to replace the heads would have been a desecration in those days. Besides, the skulls had all flesh and matter removed and would have been very odd reunited with still -intact cadavers.

I expect more information to come soon. Yes, it is disturbing stuff, and I am glad to get it straightened out once and for all. Maybe then, something might be done about it. Several members of the Cook Borden family may be able to convince a re-routing of the access path. We will, of course need the scans as proof.

[theebmonique]

Thank you Shelley for all the work you are doing. I have been to Oak grove twice...taking my mother the first time, and my niece the second time. I chastised them both about walking oover Lizzie's resting place. I guess they weren't afterall...and it was ME who was.





Tracy...

[Kat]

I agree about newspapers, and we must be discriminating as to what we believe. That can also go for the decoration of Lizzie's bedroom by the description of the lady reporter. We might wonder at how she got in at a later date!

Herald News, Feb. 1992:
"Early results indicate two levels of burial"

...Stan Smith of Geophysical Survey Systems reported after two hours of testing that the gravesite was disturbed twice, once when the murder victims were buried, and a second time, perhaps, when the skulls were buried with the bodies. The subsurface radar, which penetrated about 10 feet, showed two "targets" in each grave, the coffins and something buried only about 2 feet below ground, said Smith.
~~~~~

Herald News, Feb. 6, 1992:
"Security of Borden site questioned"

...The Board of Health voted Wednesday to meet with the city's Park Department to determine if security measures are needed around the grave sites of Lizzie Borden's father and stepmother.

The move came two days after Dr. James E. Starrs, a forensic scientist at George Washington University used ground-penetrating radar on the gravesite...

...[Gecewicz] noted that while the preliminary test results indicate that the Borden skulls could be buried with their bodies at Oak Grove Cemetery, "it could have been a rock or a boulder. But it created the impression it was a skull.".

--He said it might get people digging on their own and reminded the public that constituted a violation of the law.

[Shelley]

That's pretty much what the talk around town was when this was going on.

Well, here's something else to ponder. Since Andrew's parents and stepmother , plus Phebe Ann and all the gang are on the street, I am going to assume their stones MUST be headstones stones facing out on the street with the coffins behind them. There's no way they are going out the other way into the road!

[Kat]

Forgive my poor attempt at tracing these photos.
They show Prof Starrs in relation to the graves. It's not impossible one may be posed. (These are 2 different newspapers).

[Kat]

That's pretty much what the talk around town was when this was going on.

Well, here's something else to ponder. Since Andrew's parents and stepmother , plus Phebe Ann and all the gang are on the street, I am going to assume their stones MUST be headstones stones facing out on the street with the coffins behind them. There's no way they are going out the other way into the road!

That's a good point. Harry and I were discussing something similar in reasoning yesterday.

[theebmonique]

Forgive my poor attempt at tracing these photos.
They show Prof Starrs in relation to the graves. It's not impossible one may be posed. (These are 2 different newspapers).

Is it me, or do these illustrations make it seem that the bodies are buried as Harry's drawing suggested ? I guess though, Prof. Starrs would want to examine both right and left of the headstone/footstone. It just seems SO odd to put a path over the top of a grave, not to mention disrespectful ??





Tracy...

[Harry]

Yes, I believe my original drawing was correct, too. They are still headstones but they are reversed so that you can read the names from the path. As MBHenty said, you could avoid walking on the graves and say a prayer from the path.

The paper that the cemetery gave us on the Manchester graves (way back in Oct. 2004) shows their graves behind the stones and their names facing the the other way.

[Kat]

I should include the last photo tracing I have made- not leave any out so we have more evidence to weigh.

[Shelley]

For years I thought they were footstones- which made more sense to me. But it is not a matter for opinion and personal desire (as noble as ours are for the poor Bordens) when we can actually know the facts. And soon I hope. You can bet I will be sniffing around the cemetery office this weekend while I await more from Dr. Starrs. He said a lot of his stuff is packed as he is retiring this year and it may be a bit before he gets the scans .

[Kat]

It was mentioned Prof Starrs had a new book coming out? Could it be the one recently published- the last year?
He was not very complimentary towards MM at the FRHS.
On the book, his name comes first- as opposed to this listing at Barnes & Noble.
I thought the whole book was pretty good. There was no actual chapter on the Lizzie Borden case tho- more a sort of summing up about his experences with that.

A Voice for the Dead: A Forensic Investigator's Pursuit of the Truth in the Grave
by Katherine M. Ramsland, James E. Starrs


Hardcover
ISBN: 0399152253
Pub. Date: March 2005


Also, a link to a previous discussion:
viewtopic.php?t=1423&sid=2eaf39bbaacb9f ... 170d389578

[Shelley]

He said he had a new book coming out. I should have asked the title! I will find out more next week.
Katherine Ramsland stayed at the Borden house and does "ghosthunting" if that is the same gal.

Yes, -I think Dr. Starrs had wanted to do a little more poking about at FRHS and due to conservation and preservation of the items, I get the impression he was limited there and at the cemetery of course. I heard the church community came out strongly against exhuming the skulls.

[Doug]

I wonder when the various stones on the Borden family plots were placed? Abraham Borden's family stones at the east side of the lot and near the road are a different style than Andrew's family stones and if my recollection is correct (my notes are presently packed away in boxes) at least one of Abraham's family members died prior to 1850. If Oak Grove Cemetery opened in 1850 this individual must have been reinterred in the Borden lot from somewhere else, assuming the appropriate stone actually marks a grave and is not a cenotaph.

Alice and Sarah died many years before Andrew and Abby (when Oak Grove was new and much less populated than it is today) and presumably Andrew chose Alice's and Sarah's gravesites and the orientation of their graves, the style of their two headstones, and oversaw their placement. Perhaps these two headstones were installed sometime after the burials. Also, presumably Andrew chose and arranged for the installation of the larger Borden monument.

The William Almy family plots (Andrew's long-time business partner) are on the other side of the path shown in the photograph Harry posted. I would guess, though don't know for sure, that Andrew, William Almy, and perhaps Abraham Borden reserved this fairly large area of land for use as needed not long after Oak Grove opened. It appears there is space for additional burials in this area even today. Perhaps the path was placed to differentiate the Almy side of the lot from the Borden side. Also, I wonder if the two roads passing this area today both existed 125 or more years ago or if even there was a different road leading to this area which is no longer in existence?

[snokkums]

I see what you are saying Harry. I guess it all depends on how you are standing over the gravesite. You could be on one end, and Lizzie's request would have been honored, or ignored.

[Shelley]

I learned today that the granite footing at the end of that path under the tree is the top of what was once a step.

[Kat]

We have read that the big monument was chosen and paid for by the girls- was it in 1895?
Harry, or Augusta would recall.

Harry and I were also talking about a possibility of the older stones depicting Sarah and Alice being changed out to match all the newer ones: those of Andrew and Abby- and then Lizbeth and Emma matching theirs to those?

Here is the photo from The Sourcebook. Can anyone tell the relationship of Lizbeth's grave to the monument and the markers we can see and compare to modern photos we have to figure out these placements?
Note the path in front of the monument. This would be 1927. Andrew & Abby dead 35 years.

[Shelley]

The stone was chosen by the girls in 1894 and was done in Westerly, RI, famous for its blue granite. I recently saw the newspaper article telling of this-now to find it again! I recall thinking I might ask in town to see if a record of the order was still around. Westerly is the town next to where I live and has many monument carvers, including Buzzi's ( family of Laugh-In star Ruth Buzzi).

[Shelley]

I've often wondered why Abraham and his family have much more modern -looking stones. They all coordinate with the other family members. Look at the stones of Genevra and Mr. Almy- real gothic marble high Victorian style. All the Borden stones look so much more contemporary except for the large Borden obelisk. We'll get there- most of the fun is in the sleuthing out of the answers. I can see how that one step granite stair on the west side of the lot has filled in over the years from run-off on that slope. There was once a cart track which is now gone which ran along that west side.. Am going out today to take some contour shots to compare. I miss all the trees which were once there too. It was too hard to maintain the graves and cut the grass with all those trees to mow around I bet.

[Harry]

The stone was chosen by the girls in 1894 and was done in Westerly, RI, famous for its blue granite. I recently saw the newspaper article telling of this-now to find it again! I recall thinking I might ask in town to see if a record of the order was still around. Westerly is the town next to where I live and has many monument carvers, including Buzzi's ( family of Laugh-In star Ruth Buzzi).

This little item appeared in the Plattsbugh Sentinel on Oct.23, 1894:



And this one in the Chicago Tribube of Nov. 11, 1894:

[Harry]

More on the stone.

From Victorian Vistas, Volume 2, page 500. Newspaper source not listed.

"January 12, 1895

A. J. BORDEN MONUMENT.
HANDSOME STONE TO MARK THE GRAVE OF
THE MURDERED COUPLE.

On Aug. 4, 1892, Andrew J. Borden and his wife, Abby D. Borden, met
death by violence. A few days later they were buried in Oak Grove Cemetery. The Borden lot is in the north section of the cemetery. Until Friday the graves were unmarked by any headstone to signify what bodies were buried beneath. Now a monument stands above the graves. It is built of Westerly granite and is about 10 feet in height. The base is four by five feet, and the stone is artistic in shape and finish, without being in any way elaborate. On the base facing the south is the inscription: "A. J. Borden," in heavy letters standing in relief. On a panel of the north side is the following inscription:

ANDREW JACKSON BORDEN,
1822-1892.
His Wife,
SARAH ANTHONY BORDEN, 1823-1863.
His Wife,
ABBY DURFEE BORDEN,
1828-1892.

The panel facing westward will bear the names of the children of Andrew J. Borden. At present it reads:

Children Of
ANDREW J. AND SARAH A. BORDEN.
ALICE ESTHER.
1856-1858.

The stone was built by the Smith granite company, and the company's
workmen set it in place under the supervision of Superintendent Jonathan E. Morrill. Emma and Lizzie Borden, children of Andrew J. and Sarah A. Borden, visited the cemetery while the men were at work. A small knot of curious spectators was hanging about at that time. The sisters went to the cemetery in their carriage. They alighted to view the work, Lizzie glancing at the stone and immediately re-entering the carriage. Emma viewed it critically, gave directions to the workmen and sooned rejoined her sister in the carriage, leaving the cemetery at once."

Well, at least Lizzie and Emma, unlike at the funeral, bothered to get out of the carriage this time. Lizzie could only muster a brief glance.

[Shelley]

Great stuff Harry- you da man!
The Granite industry is well-documented in Westerly. I'll see what I can dig up on Smith's -which as far as I know is no longer in business. A lot of the old timers folded back in the 1980's.
Good to have the placement date too. I am picturing the girls in fur sacques and galoshes picking their way gingerly across the lot.

[Kat]

Thanks Harry!
I got the year right after all. Pardon my crow!
Our Victorian Vistas are at Stef's house.
I knew you would come through!

[Harry]

There is this in that Victorian Vistas article that we have touched on before:

"Until Friday the graves were unmarked by any headstone to signify what bodies were buried beneath."

I don't know whether that refers to just Andrew and Abby or to the whole plot. If the whole plot, then Sarah and Alice had no stones for some 30+ years.

If the stones for Sarah and Alice were already there then I could see Lizzie and Emma purchasing the like stones for Andrew and Abby. All four just have the deceased initials. However Lizbeth and Emma broke that tradition by having their names on their stones.

[Shelley]

Newsflash from the hayloft!
I dropped in on the superintendent of Oak Grove -don't ask me his name- he was not forthcoming with it. Clearly these folks are weary of the Bordens. After some whining and cajoling I got this august personnage to help me draw a diagram of these famous stones. I told him it was a matter of some great urgency as folks were concerned the Bordens were being tread upon. Well, after all was said and done here is the good news- YES- these are all headstones as formerly reported-but- and here's the better news- the heads are behind the headstones-NOT in front of them. Lizzie IS buried at her father's feet. Hurray!

I am still waiting for the Starrs scans as one more confirmation- but oh what a DIFFERENCE it makes going in person and not trying to decipher someone's directions over the telephone. All heads are behind the stones, everyone's feet facing outward in the same direction.

Each grave has a nice fresh chrysanthemum plant and has been neatly trimmed and ready for autumn visitors. Today is windy with the promise of heavy rain tonight. Acorns and leaves were thick on the graves already, along with some ghastly blue silk flowers, coins and silver spangle stars (all now mercifully removed). Emma's had a healthy growth of mushrooms and moss (also removed with alacrity).

Glad to be able to report a happy ending. And here is a toast to Harry- who was convinced all along! p.s. Abraham and Co. have the same scenario- heads behind the headstones.

[Kat]

Well, this is odd.
Can't it be that the headstones are turned around, (facing ht\the path) yet still be headstones?
...
Is this a matter of miscommunication or misunderstanding?
...
I only am asking if it's possible the question was misunderstood?

I'm glad to hear most of this question has been resolved. Thank you Shelley! I was not convinced- ever- that the bodies were under the path. I'm glad we kept at it. I felt like a dog-with-a-bone tho. Harry and I could not stop discussing it.
I would walk away from my computer each day and say "I just don't believe it."

BTW: I think that guy's name is Dan or Don?
He is pretty funny!! We love him!