A bit over the top? An axe for a woman?

[snokkums]

I got thinking the other day about something. Although I think Lizzie did it, it seems that taking an axe would not have been what a woman would do to kill someone. Seems to me, most women would have taken poison or something to kill someone. The axe seems to be more of a mans way of doing things. I mean, to wheel an axe into the skull, seems to be over the top for a women. I am strong for a woman, but I'm not all that.

What do you all think?

[Yooper]

If Eli Bence was correct, Lizzie's first choice might have been poison. Since she couldn't buy poison, something else would have to do. What else would have been available in the Borden house as a murder weapon? There may be several good answers, but a hatchet would have a good chance of incapacitating someone immediately.

This tends to imply that there was some immediate need to kill Abby, no time to wait for other means. It was likely the first time Abby and Lizzie were by themselves, with Bridget working outside.

If we add a measure of desperation to the mix, a hatchet might make more sense.

[doug65oh]

Oddly, I'm reminded of that old saying along the lines of: When storm's a`brewin' the first available port is best.

[Kat]

You could say a woman might choose a *man's weapon* just to throw suspicion elsewhere.
There are stories of Lizzie already being handy with an ax- but maybe they cropped up afterwards to sort of explain such a *masculine* weapon.

We just read here lately that Dr. Crippen may not have killed the body in his basement because people think it was not his wife. But the contradiction remains that if he poisoned his wife, would he cut her up? 2 different MO's.
I've struggled with 2 different MOs in this case.

Douh-Oh gave a link to the Crippen update but seems the page is timed out now.
My comment there was:
Notice it says that poisoners don't mutilate and want a "natural death" on the death cert & want to walk away?
viewtopic.php?t=3163

[snokkums]

I think that you have a good point, Kat. If Lizzie used a *masucline* weapon, noone would have been looking at her as a suspect.

And, every picture I have ever seen of her, she does look rather strudy and strong. So, maybe she would have been able to swing the ax.

[Yooper]

If Lizzie chose a hatchet to direct suspicion away from her, it worked well! If Abby and Andrew had been poisoned, where would the suspicion have been directed? Granted, it was directed toward Lizzie anyway, but it would have seemed clearer and more straightforward to a jury if poison had been used.

I realize I'm nitpicking, but there is a big difference between an axe and a hatchet. An axe is a two-handed implement with a long handle, which is perhaps a bit less "feminine" than a hatchet, which is a one-handed implement with a short handle. An axe is a good deal heavier than a hatchet. It is roughly the same difference as between a sledge hammer and a hammer.

There was conjecture at the trial about a four pound hatchet having been used. This seems unlikely. There is a way in which we can realize what a four pound implement with a short handle feels like. Find a hardware store selling drilling hammers, most large hardware stores sell them. They look like a miniature sledge hammer. Look for one with a four pound head, a common size, even if a bit large. Heft it, swing it from the wrist, elbow, and shoulder, and envision striking something nineteen times with it. You'll see what I mean!

[snokkums]

I don't think that you are nitpicking, Yooper. Either a hatchet or an ax, it still was a slight more masculine than a poison.

[Yooper]

Other than poison, what would be considered a "feminine" weapon? I've never given it much thought, maybe there were no good options other than a hatchet.

[snokkums]

I haven't given it much thought either, Yooper, and I am a female.

Maybe she might have tried to get someone else to do it, so it wouldn't look like she was invovled. That would be kind of lady like.

[shakiboo]

Well, she could have shoved Abbie down the front stairs, but then there would be no guarentee that she would die. Or even the basement stairs, and if she didn't die, hit her in the head with something. Oh that's awful, I just gave myself the shivers! But, I guess that's no more cold blooded then swinging an hatchet at an old lady, and it might have been more likely to be considered an accident. And spared her the ordeal of killing her own father.

[Yooper]

Come to think of it, if poison had been used, there would be an explanation needed as to why Lizzie, and possibly Bridget, were still alive. Poison is indiscriminate, a hatchet is more selective.

[twinsrwe]

...I realize I'm nitpicking, but there is a big difference between an axe and a hatchet. An axe is a two-handed implement with a long handle, which is perhaps a bit less "feminine" than a hatchet, which is a one-handed implement with a short handle. An axe is a good deal heavier than a hatchet. It is roughly the same difference as between a sledge hammer and a hammer. ...

I agree, Jeff, and I don't think you are nitpicking. Since the murder weapon was never found, we don't know if an axe or a hatchet that was used. However, a hatchet would be easier for a man or woman to use, that for sure.

Other than poison, what would be considered a "feminine" weapon? ...

There is one weapon which both males and females have within themselves - let me explain... Due to Lizzie's actions and reactions on the day of the murders, it is my belief that she did kill both Abby and Andrew. I believe that Lizzie created a stressful situation for herself through the fear, of losing her father's fortune to Abby and her family. On the morning on August 4th, Abby could very well have threatened Lizzie in a way which enraged her to the point of a "fight or flight" response - this would cause a surge of adrenaline to be released into Lizzie's body. It is a well known fact that adrenaline gives a person male or female, super-human strength, therefore it makes little difference if an axe or a hatchet was used to do the deed, although I do believe that a hatchet would be more readily available. Given the number of blows which Abby received, it is obvious that the target of Lizzie's rage was toward Abby; granted, Andrew received 10 blows, however, Abby received almost twice as many blows. I believe Andrew was killed out of the fear that he would give his fortune over to Abby's relatives if he ever found out that Lizzie was responsible for Abby's death.

Following is, in part, taken from this web site: http://www.thebodysoulconnection.com/Ed ... fight.html

... The "fight or flight response" is our body's primitive, automatic, inborn response that prepares the body to "fight" or "flee" from perceived attack, harm or threat to our survival.

When our fight or flight system is activated, we tend to perceive everything in our environment as a possible threat to our survival. By its very nature, the fight or flight system bypasses our rational mind—where our more well thought out beliefs exist—and moves us into "attack" mode. This state of alert causes us to perceive almost everything in our world as a possible threat to our survival. As such, we tend to see everyone and everything as a possible enemy. Like airport security during a terrorist threat, we are on the look out for every possible danger. We may overreact to the slightest comment. Our fear is exaggerated. Our thinking is distorted. We see everything through the filter of possible danger. We narrow our focus to those things that can harm us. Fear becomes the lens through which we see the world.

... When activated, the fight or flight response causes a surge of adrenaline and other stress hormones to pump through our body. This surge is the force responsible for mothers lifting cars off their trapped children and for firemen heroically running into blazing houses to save endangered victims. The surge of adrenaline imbues us with heroism and courage at times when we are called upon to protect and defend the lives and values we cherish.


An intruder would not have taken the time to deliver the number of blows that Abby and Andrew received. I believe the blows they received, stemmed from extreme fear, rage, and hatred; adrenaline was the force behind those vicious blows and Lizzie was the one who had the weapon to attack and destroy the sources of her fears.

[Yooper]

Good information Judy, an adrenaline rush might make a lethal weapon out of a can opener! Maybe the violence involved rather than the choice of weapon made the crime seem male oriented?

Something else to consider: hatchets during Victorian times were more commonly used than they are today. Women might have had to split small pieces of kindling for the wood stove in order to start it, so perhaps Victorian women were no strangers to the use of hatchets. Take a look at the variety of hatchets available back then, there were several types. Nowadays we're lucky to find one or two, and those may only differ in the handle material.

[Kat]

Well, that''s a good distinction to remind us of, Yooper, axe & hatchet- thanks.

As for adrenaline, this murder of Abbie would have been, to some extent, pre-meditated. Someone had to go get the weapon- they didn't use what might have been handy.
But if Lizzie did kill, I could believe the state of paranoia- as a form of passing *madness.*

On Dr. Phil today- coming up- Tuesday- there will be a story of a daughter who tried to kill her father with a hammer. He survived. There may be some insight there for us if everyone is honest about what happened and why. I'm going to watch it.

[nbcatlover]

I don't think a hatchet is a masculine or feminine weapon. In those days, they both used them. My own grandmother was known to go out in the backyard to kill a fresh chicken with one. I live in the city and had neighbors with chickens, a rooster, rabbit coops, and a goat in the 1950s. Many people who were raised on farms kept their old ways.

Lizzie may or may not have killed a chicken (or cat) in her day, but a nice "old country" girl like Bridget had experience.

[twinsrwe]

Good information Judy, an adrenaline rush might make a lethal weapon out of a can opener! Maybe the violence involved rather than the choice of weapon made the crime seem male oriented? ...

Thanks, Jeff. I think you may be right - although there were a large number of blows rained upon the heads of both Abby and Andrew, it is my understanding that the blows were not all that deep.

... Something else to consider: hatchets during Victorian times were more commonly used than they are today. Women might have had to split small pieces of kindling for the wood stove in order to start it, so perhaps Victorian women were no strangers to the use of hatchets. Take a look at the variety of hatchets available back then, there were several types. Nowadays we're lucky to find one or two, and those may only differ in the handle material.

When I was a kid, our source of heat was a cast iron 'Warm Morning' wood-burning stove. My mother used newspapers and kindling to start the fire; wood logs were added once the fire was going and during a bitterly cold period, coal was added. At times, we needed to split the wood logs into smaller pieces if there wasn't enough kindling available to get the fire started. The splitting of the wood logs into smaller pieces, was done by the females in our household.

[twinsrwe]

... As for adrenaline, this murder of Abbie would have been, to some extent, pre-meditated. Someone had to go get the weapon- they didn't use what might have been handy. ...

You're right Kat, someone had to go get the murder weapon. I didn't say a hatchet was handy, I said "... a hatchet would be more readily available", meaning a hatchet rather than an axe would be more likely to have been available within the household.

[Yooper]

A hatchet would be easier to conceal than an axe and the handle broken more readily. The handle could be tossed in the stove as is.

[Yooper]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Kat's point was premeditation rather than adrenaline? She may be right, they seem mutually exclusive. Someone experiencing an adrenaline rush would probably not run to the basement to retrieve a hatchet, they would grab a chair or anything else handy. If the hatchet was handy upstairs...why? That implies premeditation.

Committing the act, actually using the hatchet, would probably induce an adrenaline response. This would explain the number of blows.

[shakiboo]

Would the hatchet be something LIzzie might have been taking to Marion with her, if so, could she have had it upstairs to pack? Might she at some time bought a new one with the thought of taking it fishing? If so that would put it alot closer then going all the way downstairs for one. Just a thought....

[Angel]

I strongly believe that Lizzie was plotting something with poison (and might even have been starting to carry it out, which would explain the sickness in the house) but then she found out something immediate was afoot, so felt she had to do something a lot more quickly than she had anticipated.

[Smudgeman]

I don't think an axe or hatchet is "doing things a man's way", women kill just the same as men. I just purchased the movie "Straight Jacket" starring Joan Crawford, and she wields any an axe, a great movie by the way. The Manson girls used knives and forks, there was also a made for TV movie years back starring Barbara Hershey I think, she killed her friend with an axe after having an affair with her husband, it was a true story although the Title fails me now. ...... I think the poison plan did not work out, they just got sick, and more drastic measures were needed.

[Yooper]

Ultimately, Scott is correct. It all boils down to murder which is hardly gender specific. Given a degree of desperation, anything might have been chosen as the murder weapon or method.

[1bigsteve]

I think Lizzie planned on poison first and then, for whatever reason, switched to the hatchet. I often wonder if Lizzie would have used a gun but I doubt it due to the noise and smell of burnt gun powder in between the killings. Bridget would have taken notice.

As to "feminine weapons" I once heard it said that women seldom use a gun, especially on themselves, but I have seen many crime scene and autopsy photos of women who had shot themselves using guns. Women as a whole may prefer poison but if one weapon is not available another will be used.

Police: Why did you stab your whole family?

Suspect: Because I didn't have a gun.

I think there is some ironic truth to that statement.

-1bigsteve (o:

[Kat]

I almost added under "handy" - a pair of scissors, as the room was used for sewing. A chair is a good one too. The premeditation was my point, correct.

That girl (on Dr. Phil) who used the hammer on her father was youngish, in her 20's I believe and had had a very young child and was in a romantic relationship with another girl. The family blames the girlfriend for influencing their daughter. That reminded me of Emma- but Dr. Phil said this felon had a history of violence and therefore the girlfriend could not be to blame- and the daughter was an adult.
He ruled out sexual abuse by the father. I think he did that prior to filming.

So that whole scenario was no help at all. The daughter- who is in jail for 5 years- says she has no idea why she attacked her father with a hammer.

[twinsrwe]

I almost added under "handy" - a pair of scissors, as the room was used for sewing. A chair is a good one too. The premeditation was my point, correct. ...

O.K., I misinterpreted what your point was. I agree that the murder of Abby was premeditated. As for why a hatchet was used instead of something handy like a scissors or a chair, well, only the killer knows the answer to that question. I still believe adrenaline was the force behind the overkill of both Abby and Andrew.

[Kat]

Well, with premeditation agreed, then any weapon used should be analyzed and discussed- per the topic title.
And yes maybe Lizzie brought the hatchet upstairs for it to be close by, if one thinks Lizzie did it, or was supplying someone else with a weapon. Or someone brought it with them and took it away again.

I can't stress enough tho that poisoners do not mutilate. They just don't switch weapons like that.

If I have to include poison in this case, I'd think the intent could have been to fool around- maybe keep the Bordens from vacating to the farm. But prussic acid would not have been used- something less lethal- if one thinks the Bordens were poisoned Tuesday night sometime.

[Yooper]

I just had a strange thought. What if Emma and Lizzie had been slowly escalating hostilities between themselves and Abby for a period of time. If we include the robbery and the fact that Abby was missing her front door key, maybe that isn't too far fetched. There may have been other incidents which no one else knew about. Then the Bordens suffer a case of severe food poisoning which Abby misinterprets as a deliberate poisoning and complains to Dr. Bowen that someone is trying to kill her. It isn't much of a leap to realize that "someone" means "Lizzie", and all Lizzie has to do is suspect it. Abby might have intended that as a warning to Lizzie to stop the "Gaslight" treatment if she didn't know of another way, or if Andrew refused to cooperate. It might have been enough to push Lizzie over the edge to have been wrongly accused. She wasn't any more a poisoner by nature than she was a hatchet murderer, she only wanted Abby dead by whatever means possible, and the sooner, the better. Could it be that ridiculously simple?

[shakiboo]

When Abbie went over to see Dr. Bowen, she said she thought someone was trying to poison them, because she, Andrew AND LIZZIE had all been sick. She was worried enough about it to tell Dr. Bowen. What if it was Her fears that made Lizzie afraid that it was poisoning and not just summer flu, and that's what sent Lizzie to Alice to basically say the same thing to her friend, that Abbie had voiced to the Doctor, that very morning? Not only that, but Lizzie would be in a possition to hear what was said between Abbie and Andrew after Andrew sent the Doctor away. And even before Abbie made the decision to go over to see the Doctor, upset and afraid. And here's the really strange thing, any finger that points to Lizzie, also can be pointed at Bridget, she was the only one in the house that wasn't sick.

[Angel]

Lizzie just SAID she was sick. She could have been faking. No one saw her being sick.

[Tina-Kate]

Bridget testified she was sick on the morning of the murders.

I tend to think Lizzie was faking, too.

[Allen]

I can't stress enough tho that poisoners do not mutilate. They just don't switch weapons like that.

I don't think a killers behavior is quite that predictable. I think if the situation called for immediate action to carry out their plan, or if the poison didn't seem to be working, they'd switch to another weapon. There have been many cases I've read about where a person began using poison and switched weapons. Or even vice versa. I don't think we can positively say a poisoner would never mutilate. I don't think we can ever really predict what a person capable of murder might do to ensure the death of their intended victim.

[snokkums]

I think that both murders were premeditated. And I think that Lizzie was faking the illnes too.

[Kat]

I think it's possible Lizzie was faking the illness.
But also remember that Abbie ate breakfast that morning before going over to Dr. Bowen's.
And she offered Morse some of the same food they had been eating. . . So maybe she wasn't so adament it was an actual case of poisoning to Dr. Bowen...
With poison too, it's hit or miss- unless one is adept at it.
The use of poison in this case, if it was introduced to the elder Bordens in their food, would imply someone fooling around, trying it out, with no set time established to kill someone. It's inexact- whereas a hatchet is pretty exact.

Hi Missy!
You know we have been debating case by case your contention and mine.
Nice to see you back!

[Yooper]

Still, something caused the authorities to be looking for poison on August 4th immediately after the murders. Milk was tested as were the stomachs of the deceased, so someone was taking it seriously by then.

[Angel]

There's always a the possibility that Lizzie could have made tea or something for her parents before they got sick and slipped in something. I don't think anyone would have thought to question anyone what they were doing or eating on that Tuesday before they got sick.

[twinsrwe]

I just had a strange thought. What if Emma and Lizzie had been slowly escalating hostilities between themselves and Abby for a period of time. If we include the robbery and the fact that Abby was missing her front door key, maybe that isn't too far fetched. There may have been other incidents which no one else knew about. Then the Bordens suffer a case of severe food poisoning which Abby misinterprets as a deliberate poisoning and complains to Dr. Bowen that someone is trying to kill her. It isn't much of a leap to realize that "someone" means "Lizzie", and all Lizzie has to do is suspect it. Abby might have intended that as a warning to Lizzie to stop the "Gaslight" treatment if she didn't know of another way, or if Andrew refused to cooperate. It might have been enough to push Lizzie over the edge to have been wrongly accused. She wasn't any more a poisoner by nature than she was a hatchet murderer, she only wanted Abby dead by whatever means possible, and the sooner, the better. Could it be that ridiculously simple?

Wow, Jeff, I was just thinking along this same line of thought. Yes, I think it could have been that simple. If it is true that Emma disliked Abby even more than Lizzie did, then Emma mostly likely would have had a great deal of influence over Lizzie by feeding her negative feelings toward Abby, which could have been from the day Abby walked into their lives. Emma and Lizzie may have planned to get rid of Abby together or Lizzie, alone, may have had murder on her mind for quite a period of time.

It is my understanding that gilt was found in Abby's wounds; this indicates that a new hatchet was used on Abby. As far as we know, Lizzie could have either purchased or lifted a hatchet and hid it in her bedroom, well before August 4th and was just waiting for an opportune time to use it. The action of Abby going to Dr. Bowen and complaining that someone is trying to kill her, may have appeared to Lizzie as a personal threat toward her; this would have put Lizzie in a position of being 'at the last straw'; when a person is 'at the last straw', they become angry and are just about to lose their patience. On the morning of August 4th, something took place between Lizzie and Abby which caused Lizzie to lose her temper. It could have been as simple as Abby making a snide remark which Lizzie took as the final threatened; for Lizzie, this would have been 'the straw the broke the camel's back'. Abby's remark could have enraged Lizzie to the point of a "fight or flight" response where adrenaline would have been released into her body. The hidden hatchet would have been easily obtained, and it is all over for Abby but the hacking.

[Yooper]

Doherty, August 4th, the Witness Statements, page 4:

11.35 At this hour I, with Frank Wixon, entered the Borden house 92 Second street. Dr. Bowen met me at the kitchen door, and said “I am glad to see you.” I inquired “what is the trouble?” He said “Mr. Borden is dead.” I went into the next room, and there found the remains on a sofa covered with a sheet. In low tones the Doctor told me he was satisfied there was something wrong, for they were all sick the day before. He followed this by saying “to make matters worse, Mrs. Borden is lying dead up stairs. I suppose she saw the killing of her husband, and run up stairs, and died with fright.”

This comment by Dr. Bowen about his being convinced something was wrong calls for quite a leap of logic if taken at face value. It would call for a progression directly to a hatchet murder, based upon food poisoning. This is what makes me think Abby complained of deliberate poisoning when she went to see Dr. Bowen the day before the murders. Perhaps she didn't press it or she allowed herself to be talked out of it, but I think it was her original complaint and/or the intent of the visit. Dr. Bowen's comment makes perfect sense if that was true.

The fact that she had eaten breakfast before going to see the doctor tells me she wasn't on her last legs, but she was going to make the complaint in spite of that! So, maybe the reason for the visit wasn't exactly immediate medical attention.

[Angel]

Maybe that's why Dr. Bowen was acting so weird- his guilt may have been driving him to distraction because he remembered Abby being worried about being poisoned and he didn't take her seriously. Maybe he thought he could have prevented all this if he had listened to her.

[Kat]

I think that definitely could have distracted Dr. Bowen, as he had been very casual about a deliberate poisoning according to him.

Here's something: 2 *weapons* might = 2 people.
But how about introducing Emma into the equation?
Emma might have slipped something into food that Abbie usually ate- it might be a practical joke, tho cruel.
And Lizzie, seeing the elder Borden's finally imbibe the substance, whatever it was- realized. And pretended she too was sick- to protect Emma.
Then Lizzie can still kill with a hatchet, if we need her to, but was not the *poisoner.*
Thus we've explained 2 *weapons.*

Still, please at least keep in mind that Abbie made Morse sit down at the table Wednesday, when he says he was not hungry- and eat their food. Either she wanted to see if he got sick, or she didn't suspect her remaining food- absent the baker's bread and milk from Tuesday.

Also, regardless of whether we continue to debate poison in the case- no irritation was found in the study of the bodies.

[Susan]

There was also Abby's suspicion of baker's cream cakes according to Dr. Bowen's inquest testimony:

Inquest, volume 2, page 115

Q. What morning was this?
A. Wednesday morning. I asked her what she had eaten for supper, and she told me. She said she had eaten some baker's white bread, and she had heard of baker's cream cakes being poisonous, and was afraid there was something poisonous in the bread that made her vomit. She said she only ate cake and baker's white bread. At that time she had a sort of eructation of vomiting, slightly. I was afraid she was going to vomit there, I rather got ready for her. I told her to go home, and I told her what to take; and she took it.

Abby says she only ate cake and baker's white bread for supper, but, surely that can't be all that she ate? To me it sounds as though Abby wasn't suspicious of the food that was already in the house, just anything that was purchased and eaten just before they became ill. It sounds like Abby's fear was from an outside source for the poisoning, not in her own home. Wasn't Tuesday when they had the warmed over swordfish? Since it was already in the house and they didn't get sick the first time they ate, it probably didn't concern Abby.

I find it strange too that after talking to Dr. Bowen and his thought that she had food poisoning that Abby served Morse the same food. But, perhaps in her mind, since no one got sick from eating the mutton the day before, it wasn't suspect to her. So, she probably felt it safe to serve yet again.

[Yooper]

Perhaps the seeming randomness of the method is telling in itself. If Abby's visit to Dr. Bowen on Wednesday had represented a threat and murder had not been thought of before this point, then maybe the murderer was simply casting about for different ways to accomplish the task. A female may well have thought of poison first but it was impossible to obtain, so rather than try again and run the risk of being identified further, find another method.

Think about the consequences if Lizzie had purchased poison from Bence. He would have been able, clearly, to identify her along with two others. Then there's the inevitable explanations as to why she was still alive if someone else did the poisoning. The hatchet was ultimately more anonymous and less cumbersome than poison.

[Allen]

Then there's the inevitable explanations as to why she was still alive if someone else did the poisoning. The hatchet was ultimately more anonymous and less cumbersome than poison.

That's a good point Yooper. If Lizzie had used poison the question would definitely have come up concerning how she escaped the same fate. If everyone in the house ate the same food during meals she'd have to account for why only Abby and Andrew were killed. John Morse didn't even get sick. If the poison came from another source, what source would it be that Andrew and Abby had exclusive access too?

[Yooper]

That's what makes poison cumbersome, the limited possibility for application. It would have to be used in something only Andrew and Abby would consume. If that foodstuff were tested and found positive for poison, the question of who knew enough to poison that particular substance would arise. Selective murder by poison is extremely confining. A hatchet is far better, there is no worry whether or not the intended victim will consume anything.

The best Lizzie might have hoped for might have been something like coffee, or something else they may have always consumed without fail, but only if Bridget didn't drink it and she would have to wait for Uncle John to leave. It would have to be a never-miss food item, the last thing needed would be to leave either one (especially Abby) alive. Lizzie might avoid drinking the coffee, although the question "why?" would likely still arise.

[Yooper]

Susan, the outside source for the poison might have been at Dr, Bowen's suggestion. Picture this, Abby musters up enough gumption to go to Dr. Bowen with a complaint of being poisoned, but she doesn't know how to express herself well. Dr. Bowen minimizes her complaint (third or fourth hand info from Alice suggests with a laugh) and she loses her courage. This would leave her bumbling and agreeing with the suggestion of outside sources and probably wanting to get the heck out of there. The authority figure she was hoping would support her ended up laughing at her.

[Kat]

Lizzie and Alice talked about the milk which is an outside source too- yes Susan you're right- so was the bread.
That could be Lizzie throwing suspicion onto an outside source on Wednesday night. She may have figured out that Emma had put something in the food the elder Bordens would eventually consume.
Maybe Lizzie's habit of not eating with the folks was because of a case of Russian Roulette with that poisoned- or rather I should call it tampered with- foodstuff still yet to be eaten.

[Yooper]

Another reason for poison being a poor choice at the time is the idea that Abby was sensitized to the thought of poisoned food. Even if it was simple food poisoning, if Abby thought the food was being tampered with she would have avoided it.

[Kat]

Also, if Emma fiddled with some food or liquid before she left, then she might not have known Morse was coming to visit, to potentially be made sick.

If Lizzie stayed away from eating with her folks, and Emma was gone, yet maybe Emma knew what Bridget's likes and dislikes were (I bet she did)- then it would be easy to do that, and Lizzie could wait and wait and then pretend to be sick when the folks were.

BUT: Wednesday was the day Lizzie did come to meals, out of all days.

I think Abbie ate breakfast before she went to Dr. Bowen because she probably felt a bit better and after voiding her stomach the night before she would naturally be hungry. But according to Dr. Bowen, she could not keep the breakfast down. I think she may have eaten out of habit.

[Susan]

Yes, I agree, Jeffery, we only have Dr. Bowen's word as to what Abby said or to where she feared the poison came from. Dr. Bowen may have tried to downplay the whole situation, make it sound as though Abby had some foolish woman's notion in her head about poison. Especially when he found out that the poison angle was being taken very seriously. I guess we will never have any way of knowing, all we have is his word over Abby's.

But, if what he spoke was the truth, Abby's fears were based on poisoned baker's goods, from an outside source. My thought with that is possibly that Abby didn't fear a someone who was out to get the Bordens, but, someone possibly poisoning baked goods to make whomever ill to get their jollies. Remember the Tylenol poisoning quite a few years back? Maybe something along those lines.

The court took it seriously enough to question Bridget as to what was eaten on Tuesday before the elder Bordens became sick, particularly about the bread. From the preliminary, volume 1, page 54:

Q. Now they were taken sick Tuesday night; do you remember what they had for supper?
A. Yes sir.

Q. What?
A. Some toasted bread, and some fish, some tea, and cake and cookies.

Q. Toasted bread, fish----fresh fish?
A. Yes sir.

Q. Broiled?
A. Fried.

Q. Sword fish?
A. Yes sir; fried for dinner, and warmed it over for supper.

Q. That is Tuesday?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. Did you make that bread?
A. They had baker's bread, and some bread that I made.

Q. This bread they had for supper, was that some that you made?
A. They had some of both.

Q. They did have some baker's bread, who got that?
A. I went and got it.

Q. Who sent you?
A. I went myself.

Q. Did they ask you to go?
A. No Sir.

Q. Did you take some money, or have an account?
A. When I went to set the table, I found there was not enough bread for supper, and I went to the baker's to get some rolls. There was no rolls, I got a loaf of bread. I paid for it with my own money. When I came back Mrs. Borden gave me five cents. When I got back to the door, she met me, and was after sending me back for rolls. I told her they had none there.

Q. What sort of bread was this?
A. I do not know.

Q. It was not brown bread?
A. No Sir.

Q. Flour bread?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. Did you eat any of that bread?
A. No Sir.

Q. You ate some of your own bread, perhaps?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. That did not make you sick?
A. No Sir.

Q. You were not taken sick that night?
A. No Sir.


When I think of an inside source for poisoning, Bridget would seem a likely source. She made the food and served the portions out, and since Lizzie didn't usually eat with the elder Bordens, Bridget could make sure that only they received the poisoned goods. I can't recall now whether Lizzie ate with the elder Bordens on Tuesday, I think she did. She would have had the opportunity to poison them and sit and watch them eat it. Lizzie could have come into the kitchen before Bridget served the meal and offered to carry something into the dining room for her. A little quick fancy footwork and she could have sprinkled something into a certain portion of the food. And made sure there was a safe portion for herself to take the second she brought the platter into the dining room before passing it off to the others.

[Yooper]

Bridget as poisoner is a more logical choice than Lizzie, I agree. If Bridget had tampered with the food Tuesday, it would have to be with a substance which went undetected by Thursday. It couldn't have been a particularly strong poison or it was an insufficient dose because the Bordens were only ill as a result. On the other hand, if the weather was unusually warm and if swordfish is particularly susceptible to the effects of warm weather, that tends to support food poisoning.

In all likelihood, Dr. Bowen diagnosed Abby's illness correctly as food poisoning and nothing more serious. His error would have been in not listening to, or taking seriously, a complaint of overt poisoning. The possibility of a baker's goods being tampered with is a concern from the standpoint of public safety, but that may not have been a prominent concern back then. Dr. Bowen was kicking himself for something. There was a quote about his being greatly relieved when he heard the results of the poison tests on the stomachs had come back negative. The last thing he needed was to have misdiagnosed an overt poisoning. He may well have downplayed that idea the day of the murders and shortly after. The concern about poison the day of the murders might have come from Alice or Lizzie rather than Dr. Bowen.

Lizzie's conversation with Alice Russell the night before the murders seemed to be focused on convincing Alice of the possibility of poisoning. The references to people being seen near the house on odd occasions supports the idea of an outside source. This might have been the result of a fear that Lizzie would be suspected of trying to poison Abby and she had to turn the focus somewhere else. Outside sources were not seriously suspected of a robbery or of having caused Abby's door key to go missing. Lizzie may have sensed that things were coming to a head if she suspected Abby's complaint had been overt poisoning, regardless of what it really was. Abby may have wanted Lizzie to squirm a bit knowing Lizzie would think so, and maybe she was calling what she thought was Lizzie's bluff. Abby's visit to Dr. Bowen on Wednesday may have been Abby's bluff, the intent was not immediate medical attention, because Abby had eaten breakfast before the visit.