Lizzie Borden Society Forum

I would be interested in learning if any of Lizzie's staff at Maplecroft, i.e. driver, maids, housekeepers, have ever discussed their views of Lizzie's personal life. One would think that with her infamous background, news reporters would have continually sought any juicy tidbits about her private life.

Thats a good question. I wonder if Lizzie had her servants sign something
promising they would never talk to other peoploe about her as a
condition of employment there.

It's strange that after she moved to Maplecroft she apparently got along much better with her servents then she did while living at 92nd. If that 's the case, makes you wonder what made her change. Or if indeed she did change. She had to have had alot of servents through the years, and they all stayed quiet about her even after she passed on.

Well, to begin with, Lizzie's migration to Maplecroft would have been (if we presume the scant psychological evidence available is correctly interpreted) in her mind a large step upward from the relative austerity of life at No. 92. It was a long way to the top, but she'd made it at last.

Then too, if I recall correctly she had more than one servant employed at French Street, and they were (figuratively at least, since Emma probably had at least some input) servants of her own choosing rather than hirings her father and step-mother had anything to do with.

In terms of quality I would suppose she sought two things: efficiency and loyalty - and from what we know of things, received both to such levels that a few cases (her chauffer comes to mind at the moment) they merited bequests in her will.

But then again wasn't the whole Ruby Cameron "David Anthony did it" story based on a story told by a household servant of some kind? A nurse? Somebody at Maplecroft.

Regarding Maplecroft, does anyone have any interior photos other than the mantel?

Photos have been taken without the owner knowing it, and even some guests took some when the place was a B&B. The current owner does not wish ANY photos of Maplecroft interiors published anywhere. I had agreed, 16 years ago not to give the mantel and stained glass window in the library photos to any newspaper or magazine for publication. And I have not. I recently put these on my blog as I had seen many other photos of these mantels published elsewhere and copies at the FRHS. Other owners have photos, I am sure the Silvias have loads of them. The house has very beautiful woodwork, some lovely fireplaces, but honestly, there is no big mystery about Maplecroft. It is rather plain as Victorian houses go inside. There is a nice embossed tin ceiling in the kitchen and 3 small panes of stained glass. I suppose the most interesting thing for me was the window seat in that front triple window because I could imagine Lizzie sitting there looking at the street below. There are many exterior shots of the back porch and grounds, and a floor plan of the interior room layout here on the forum. I also obtained some film footage of the first floor from a Providence TV channel back in 1992 which can be seen on Mondo Lizzie. Some original fittings are no longer in place-they may still be in the house packed away- or not. We also do not know how much of the existing decor and elements such as the mantels were put in by Mr. Allen and how many were put in by Lizzie or even Emma.

The front door "B" had the middle bar chiseled out to make a "D", the frosted glass B in the back porch door I heard had been smashed by vandals. The wallpaper in the diningroom is said to be original, but I don't think those blue glass sconces in the diningroom are the original Quezal glass ones from Tiffany Studios. I hope SOMEBODY one day does a thorough photography session of the place for the record, or an article. I understand a private citizen wanting privacy, but I have to wonder if the mystery and intrigue of denying photos may not be amusing and exciting. Just think- to own a house everybody is dying to get into.

Ayup...you get a gold star Fairhaven feller. If I remember correctly it was a temp nurse, she didn't stay long...something like that anyway. That whole story has so many twists and turns it gives me a headache to even remember!:lol:

Just think- to own a house everybody is dying to get into.[/quote]

Yes, and for Lizzie and Emma, to own a house people had to die for.....


Thanks for the description - I'd always been curious.

doug65oh @ Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:57 pm wrote:That whole story has so many twists and turns it gives me a headache to even remember!

It's been a while since I reviewed it, but I remember that even Kat's attempt at explaining the story clearly was pretty mind boggling. It made Arnold Brown's theory look good even. We had a couple of promoters of the theory around here a few years ago.

It did make Brown look rather good...and that's the sad part.

One employee Lizzie & Emma carried over from Andrew's day was Mr Johnson ("He's not a Portuguese; he's a Swede.") from the farm. They hired him on as a man of all work at Maplecroft. He's the same fellow Bridget said would come over to 92 to chop wood, etc. from time to time.

doug65oh @ Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:57 pm wrote:Ayup...you get a gold star Fairhaven feller. If I remember correctly it was a temp nurse, she didn't stay long...something like that anyway. That whole story has so many twists and turns it gives me a headache to even remember!:lol:

I think the person who made that claim was Ruby Cameron. I don't think her claim was ever proven. I also think someone claimed they had a relative who was some sort of companion to Lizzie and that,also, was never proven.

As for servants we do know that worked for Lizzie there is a strong chance some of them were paid off to keep quiet. The one that comes to my mind is Ernest Terry. Now we know he worked for Lizzie and he and his family are in Lizzie's Will.

I do not have the details in front of me right now but, I think it was Terry that Lizzie gave a sum of money to right before she died. Not in the Will but cash she gave him. Something about having Terry get rid of some things before she died.

Lessee here... I think I have it now as far as the Cameron-Anthony thing was concerned.

1. Ruby was the nurse - a temporary sort brought in to look after Lizzie following a hospital stay. (ca. 1926-27.) Ruby's age at that time was around 25.

2. The job didn't last all that long - because Ruby mentioned the identity of her new client to her mother, who if I recall the yarn correctly raised hell to beat the Marine Band. Ruby departed Maplecroft shortly thereafter, to appease her mother.

3. During Miss Cameron's employ (a week at the most was it, according to Ruby?) Lizzie allegedly told her that it was David Anthony killed the Bordens.

4. Not a word of this came to light until Spierings book came out in the early to mid-1980s. Ruby either read (or read about) the book. Then she started telling her story.

The rest as they say is...history. Or, is it? There's a little in Len Rebello's book about it. (p. 138-39) but the above should be at least a fair skeletal summary of things as they developed.

Interesting! Perhaps I am wrong but didn't David Anthony own the yacht that Lizzie visited with a few friends when she was in New Bedford prior to the murders

Hi, Everyone

I believe it was David's relative Charles Anthony who was the owner of the yacht that Lizzie went aboard during a cruising party.

The Ruby story was fascinating but not very well received, and too bad the supposed memoirs she was writing have not surfaced. I thought Ruby's mom knew the servant who ran to their house the day of the murders, and that they helped hide David Anthony who they said killed the Bordens in a rage. I seem to remember a post in which Ruby was supposed to have said she rode over to Lizzie's with David on a bike. It's been a while so I guess I'll have to find it somewhere on the boards and refresh.

patsy @ Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:08 pm wrote:Hi, Everyone

I believe it was David's relative Charles Anthony who was the owner of the yacht that Lizzie went aboard during a cruising party.

The Ruby story was fascinating but not very well received, and too bad the supposed memoirs she was writing have not surfaced. I thought Ruby's mom knew the servant who ran to their house the day of the murders, and that they helped hide David Anthony who they said killed the Bordens in a rage. I seem to remember a post in which Ruby was supposed to have said she rode over to Lizzie's with David on a bike. It's been a while so I guess I'll have to find it somewhere on the boards and refresh.

This is great stuff! I would love to pursue this Ruby store further.

chuckciao @ Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:12 pm wrote:

patsy @ Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:08 pm wrote:Hi, Everyone

I believe it was David's relative Charles Anthony who was the owner of the yacht that Lizzie went aboard during a cruising party.

The Ruby story was fascinating but not very well received, and too bad the supposed memoirs she was writing have not surfaced. I thought Ruby's mom knew the servant who ran to their house the day of the murders, and that they helped hide David Anthony who they said killed the Bordens in a rage. I seem to remember a post in which Ruby was supposed to have said she rode over to Lizzie's with David on a bike. It's been a while so I guess I'll have to find it somewhere on the boards and refresh.

This is great stuff! I would love to pursue this Ruby store further.

Here is an old thread from the archives in which there is some interesting discussion. viewtopic.php?t=202&highlight=gramma

There should be more in the archives by a poster named Gramma who said she had talked to Ruby.

Speaking of Ruby, what ever happened to Gramma?

doug65oh @ Wed Jan 16, 2008 2:32 pm wrote:Lessee here... I think I have it now as far as the Cameron-Anthony thing was concerned.

1. Ruby was the nurse - a temporary sort brought in to look after Lizzie following a hospital stay. (ca. 1926-27.) Ruby's age at that time was around 25.

2. The job didn't last all that long - because Ruby mentioned the identity of her new client to her mother, who if I recall the yarn correctly raised hell to beat the Marine Band. Ruby departed Maplecroft shortly thereafter, to appease her mother.

3. During Miss Cameron's employ (a week at the most was it, according to Ruby?) Lizzie allegedly told her that it was David Anthony killed the Bordens.

4. Not a word of this came to light until Spierings book came out in the early to mid-1980s. Ruby either read (or read about) the book. Then she started telling her story.

The rest as they say is...history. Or, is it? There's a little in Len Rebello's book about it. (p. 138-39) but the above should be at least a fair skeletal summary of things as they developed.

Hey Doug-Oh! Have you got The Hatchet issue on Ruby Cameron, Oct./Nov. 2004?
"What Did Ruby Know?" by our Diana, "The Real David Anthony: Did Ruby Tell a Fib?" by our Joe and "Impressions of Ruby" by our Kat?

I wish someone would have come out and wrote about their experiances at Maplecroft and what it was like to work with Lizzie. I wonder if Lizzie made her staff sign a confidenality statement as a term of emploment. You know, one of those statements that says, what goes on in the house stays in the house or you will be fired kind of thing.

Oh I think they would want to not only keep their jobs, but also had good old fashioned loyalty to their employer- which today is practically unheard of! I could cheerfully choke Princess Di's butler- telling ALL and making a fortune. I have chatted with Ernest Terry's grandson who is a member of my church, and old Mr. Terry was very fond of Lizzie, in fact the whole Terry family liked her and were grateful for her generosity and thoughtfulness. Mr. Terry used to take Lizzie on country rides in the car on sunny days, sometimes over to Swansea with her little dog in the back seat. I think he was also a great friend and confidante as well. Lizzie also provided funds for Ernest's son to go to medical school and she seemed to genuinely regard the family with affection. It is reassuring to see that side of her- not everyone is beyond redemption- and I guess even the darkest evil in a person can coincide with some good.

Shelley @ Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:17 am wrote:Oh I think they would want to not only keep their jobs, but also had good old fashioned loyalty to their employer- which today is practically unheard of! I could cheerfully choke Princess Di's butler- telling ALL and making a fortune. I have chatted with Ernest Terry's grandson who is a member of my church, and old Mr. Terry was very fond of Lizzie, in fact the whole Terry family liked her and were grateful for her generosity and thoughtfulness. Mr. Terry used to take Lizzie on country rides in the car on sunny days, sometimes over to Swansea with her little dog in the back seat. I think he was also a great friend and confidante as well. Lizzie also provided funds for Ernest's son to go to medical school and she seemed to genuinely regard the family with affection. It is reassuring to see that side of her- not everyone is beyond redemption- and I guess even the darkest evil in a person can coincide with some good.

There's a good theme for a film, "Driving Miss Lizzie"!

Driving Miss lizzie! That's a good one! I guess not everyone turned their backs on her. I wonder how the one's who did treated the one's who didn't.

Believe it or not- that is EXACTLY what I told David Terry! He laughed!

Shelley, were we twins in another life?

Sometimes I wonder- I must say I agree with every word you say on the forum, we seem to get the same ideas at the same time... hmmm. Scary!
Well, a long-lost brother- I always wanted one. Do you have a thing for zeppelins, ship disasters, anything Victorian and dessert? Is your birthday Sept. 17th? (twins separated at birth)

No, March 24th, sorry. Odd that it is almost six months, save a week? I definitely think we occupy the same roller coaster car most of the time!

Well, my moon sign is Aries-that must explain it!
Maybe you have the Virgo moon sign- I need to know what time you were born and where and I can tell you your moon sign.

Milwaukee, Wisconsin, 1:55 p.m.

Wanna hear another coincidence? My best buddy growing up, in fact, he was best man at my wedding, was born Sept 12th, 1951. The real kicker is, his surname is Terry!

Your moon is in Libra. Well, pretty darn close to Virgo! Does this sound like you? I think I will look Lizzie up next.

"Desire to accomodate conflicting interests, to adjust with each othere even complete opposites, to find a peaceful outcome from a conflict situation makes the owners of Moon in Libra the inborn diplomates. Intuitively, they feel that everything in this world has two sides - a positive and a negative. So they try to restore harmony where, as they think, there is no balance. Try to just one-sidedly praise someone whom Moon Libra knows - and they will add something negative about that person. But if you will just lash someone, Moon Libra will add something positive to the mixture.

It is quite typical for the owners of Moon in Libra to hesitate endlessly in situations where some decision is required. And the quality of their decision doesn't depend on the amount of time spent in hezitations - they just pick something by random when realize that there is no possibility to delay anymore.

Relationships can often become the most important part of life for those who have their Moon in Libra. And not only their emotional well-being, but even the state of their health might depend on how successfully they find mutual understanding with their partner. In order to restore their balance after a significant stress, they need to spend some time together with a kindred soul, to speak about their problem, to feel compassion and understanding. And if they don't have such an opportunity for a long time, and if stresses continue to build up, Moon Libras can become inconstant and whimsical. They can develop some problems with kidneys and get some lower back pain as a result. Another typical sickness for them is a migraine-like headache, which also often has its roots in kidneys.

Moon in Libra gives its owners aesthetical perception, they know quite well what they like and what they don't, which colours and styles look right and which do not match. Parents with such a Moon are often worried about how to dress their children elegantly and fashionably so that nobody could say that there is something wrong in their family. The image of their family means a lot for Moon Libras, and as good diplomates they try to always make good impression and to hide any existing problems.

Large parts - but not all - of that might describe me on any given day too, and I'm a Leo.

That was interesting! What say you Yooper? Do Lizzie's that would be interesting!

Shelley @ Thu Jan 17, 2008 1:10 pm wrote:Your moon is in Libra. Well, pretty darn close to Virgo! Does this sound like you? I think I will look Lizzie up next.

"Desire to accomodate conflicting interests, to adjust with each othere even complete opposites, to find a peaceful outcome from a conflict situation makes the owners of Moon in Libra the inborn diplomates. Intuitively, they feel that everything in this world has two sides - a positive and a negative. So they try to restore harmony where, as they think, there is no balance. Try to just one-sidedly praise someone whom Moon Libra knows - and they will add something negative about that person. But if you will just lash someone, Moon Libra will add something positive to the mixture.

It is quite typical for the owners of Moon in Libra to hesitate endlessly in situations where some decision is required. And the quality of their decision doesn't depend on the amount of time spent in hezitations - they just pick something by random when realize that there is no possibility to delay anymore.

Relationships can often become the most important part of life for those who have their Moon in Libra. And not only their emotional well-being, but even the state of their health might depend on how successfully they find mutual understanding with their partner. In order to restore their balance after a significant stress, they need to spend some time together with a kindred soul, to speak about their problem, to feel compassion and understanding. And if they don't have such an opportunity for a long time, and if stresses continue to build up, Moon Libras can become inconstant and whimsical. They can develop some problems with kidneys and get some lower back pain as a result. Another typical sickness for them is a migraine-like headache, which also often has its roots in kidneys.

Moon in Libra gives its owners aesthetical perception, they know quite well what they like and what they don't, which colours and styles look right and which do not match. Parents with such a Moon are often worried about how to dress their children elegantly and fashionably so that nobody could say that there is something wrong in their family. The image of their family means a lot for Moon Libras, and as good diplomates they try to always make good impression and to hide any existing problems.

I'm sorry, Shelley, you may be describing my complete opposite. I have all the diplomatic finesse of a bull in a china shop! I rarely hesitate on a question, so my downfall is quite the opposite. (I may have fallen off the turnip truck, but it wasn't yesterday!) Aesthetical perception is fairly accurate, I am very sensitive to colors and their balance, this is why I believe Bence could be particularly sensitive to voices or sound where others are not, by the way. I am an amateur musician for whatever balance is inherent there, and one of my degrees is in mathematics, which entails balance to some extent.

Well, I attribute this discrepancy to your being actually born just about on the CUSP- these are difficult cases you see as your sun sign is very near Pisces. I am also an amateur musician by the way-all kinds of music from playing back-up rhythym guitar for Crystal Gayle to touring with a cathedral choir. I am looking for a working piano for Second Street's parlor so we can all sing around it on weekends.
And now, returning to our regularly scheduled program- yes- the more I learn of the kind of person Bence was, and his family background- the more I am convinced he was NOT a frivolous or attention-seeking person.

There ya go again Shelley, also guitar here! Anything with strings attached is fair game! Ain't much of a pianie picker, though.

What motivation would Bence have had besides fleeting fame and glory if what he said was not true? The kind which could potentially work against him over time, since I believe most people were trying to NOT incriminate Lizzie. Wasn't there something describing Alice Russell as a "traitor" in later years?

"Lizzie's turncoat friend"-yes, poor Alice Russell must have struggled with her conscience horribly.
I learned how much of a family man Bence was- devoted to his parents and sibs but he was a wonderful father too. I truly believe when he heard about those two old souls hacked up that way, he came forward in a heartbeat to do something about it. He had a little boy named Roy of his own in 1892, and he and his first wife Sarah lived on Whipple with her parents. It took courage to buck a Borden, to stay with his story and not back off. I have always given him credit- he got NOTHING out of it for speaking up.

Those are all good points. Pretty hard to simply dismiss Bence as a glory seeker, he stood to lose too much.

Well, I have been accused of going after minutiae, peeping so closely into the lives of minor players in the case- but I believe if you know the how and why of a person, and take a look at their background and daily behavior, it can give a real insight into what they become and their integrity. Right up to his death, the newspapers still linked Lizzie to Bence, although the man did so much with his life and was on the brink of becoming the head of the Massachusetts Pharmacists Association-all this for a boy who learned the trade as an apprentice at age 15! The Bences were all hard-working folks.

Shelley @ Thu Jan 17, 2008 3:01 pm wrote:Well, I have been accused of going after minutiae, peeping so closely into the lives of minor players in the case- but I believe if you know the how and why of a person, and take a look at their background and daily behavior, it can give a real insight into what they become and their integrity...

I like to say "God is in the details".

Of course, some say "The devil is in the details" (goes both ways), but I personally don't believe in the devil

Rebello shares your inclination this way & he's my hero!

So, power to ya, Shelley!

I have to smile Tina-K because LEN, my ole buddy is ALWAYS saying, "Now, Miz Shelley, WHAT does THIS have to do with Lizzie!??" He is my harshest critic and I drive him wild chasing down the fiddlely bits. I have patiently explained that women revel in the details while the fellers go for the general big picture. I go way out there and circle around before coming back to the heart of it. Len has been a great inspiration for documenting things though-get the proof!

The thing is, if not for the little pieces (often trivial or incidental) the big picture wouldn't exist beyond the barest details. We're far enough out now from 1892 that we may judge only records of things said or written long ago. The "little pieces" that you strive for, Shelley - no matter which direction they may go - only serve to bring more clarity to the big picture provided by what (hopefully) reliable sources we have to work with.

I agree dougoh, I admire some one with the patience and drive who'll search and seek to uncover all those tiny pieces from the past, that make a moment or a person come to life in the here and now. I'll be the first to admit I haven't got what it takes, but am thankful for those who do, so thanks Shelley! I know it takes alot of time and so glad you do it so well! And all you other's blessed with that kind of talent. thanks for sharing with those of us who can't do it for what-ever reason.

I wonder if it may not be more temperament than talent because anyone, given the passion for it, can do it. My husband, The Captain (a.k.a. He Who Must Be Obeyed) has NO patience with people but builds the most intricate airplane and ship models you have ever seen. He even paints INSIDE where nobody will ever see.

There's nothing I love more than someone telling me "You'll never find it". And I do find it. Life is one great treasure hunt when you have hobbies which require research in obscure places. It took me two years to find the missing portrait painted by Titanic victim and artist Frank Millet who was from Massachusetts. He painted it of his good friend and aide de camp to Presidents Roosevelt and Taft, -Archibald Butt (also a Titanic victim). I traveled to Maine, Massachusetts and Atlanta to get clues which led me to Augusta, then back to Maine-and then I found the last remaining relative- who had the painting which people had been looking for for 94 years! I spent a lot of money I don't have, but the quest is everything and oh, the wonderful people I met along the way. I could say the same about my 16 year Borden case interest. So many of these people from the Past are just line drawings in a newspaper until you dig out their lives, families, and what they did before and after the trial. Moody is another Lizzie -related figure who went on to have an incredible life-but I like to train my beady eye on the lesser-known. I have a mild interest in the present, very little interest in the future, and a mad passion for the past- at least we know how it all turned out! So I like to say, "Happy Yesterdays".

Shelley @ Thu Jan 17, 2008 3:26 pm wrote:I have to smile Tina-K because LEN, my ole buddy is ALWAYS saying, "Now, Miz Shelley, WHAT does THIS have to do with Lizzie!??" He is my harshest critic and I drive him wild chasing down the fiddlely bits. I have patiently explained that women revel in the details while the fellers go for the general big picture. I go way out there and circle around before coming back to the heart of it. Len has been a great inspiration for documenting things though-get the proof!

Next time, you have to remind him that his book is full of "fiddlely bits" he chased down that basically have nothing to do with Lizzie...& this is a reason some Bordenites love it.

chuckciao @ Tue Jan 15, 2008 5:41 pm wrote:I would be interested in learning if any of Lizzie's staff at Maplecroft, i.e. driver, maids, housekeepers, have ever discussed their views of Lizzie's personal life. One would think that with her infamous background, news reporters would have continually sought any juicy tidbits about her private life.

I don't know if you've yet taken advantage of this free download of the "Black and White" issue of The Hatchet-
here is the link. One clicks on the cover of Lizzie on the left, and sign in:
http://www.hatchetonline.com/HatchetOnline/index.htm

There is an article by Gertrude Stevenson about Lizzie on French Street, 1913.

I think the person who made that claim was Ruby Cameron. I don't think her claim was ever proven. I also think someone claimed they had a relative who was some sort of companion to Lizzie and that,also, was never proven.

--DWilly

Is that our member gramma?
Her grandmother was companion to Lizzie for about a year- she was Gertrude M. (Russell) Callow. I think she left because she wished to date and marry. Lizzie wanted her female employees unmarried. Gramma is the daughter of Virgina Taylor, Gertrude's daughter. (See some bio material in Rebello, page 289.) Our member is known at the FRHS, at least as who she says she is. They know of her- I've asked.

That was a good one Christopher- remembering Ruby!!

There is a big Maplecroft topic around here somewhere- I had posted Maplecroft newspaper info with pictures. (They were hard to make out tho, admittedly...)

MAPLECROFT is once again FOR SALE. A sign is posted on the lawn "For Sale by Owner".

Since it was last for sale MAPLECROFT has received a new roof. The job done there was an inferior one, since the old roof was left underneath the new one.

This "For Sale" sign goes up every year around this time. He is not really serious though. Just trying for the big bucks, especially since August 4th will be here soon. Last I heard he wanted 750,000 for a building he paid 60,000 for.

If you are interested.......do your homework. Many objects common to the building and Lizzie may be missing.

If you are interested you may call 508 673-8088, the number on the sign.

If you find out how much he wants, let us know.


OR.............

You can buy the Japanese House for sale on Highland Avenue four blocks away from Maplecorft for half the price. It has historical status and there's even a Post Victorian post card on it. Known as the Arthur Knapp House it was built in 1894

The house around the corner sounds awesome. Maybe this is a long-shot, but have The Muttoneater's or Lizzie Borden Society ever considered quietly forming a real estate coop and trying to buy some of these properties (or just Maplecroft) as a group? You have the true appreciation these houses deserve. If the owner is not truly motivated to sell Maplecroft, but just see if someone will pay a ridiculous amount of money, maybe you could look into other historic properties as a group. If these homes are in disrepair you may be able to get them at a lower price. Just a thought. I know people who buy commercial type buildings as a private group and sell them a few years later. They are not real estate agents, just working people who pooled their money.