HOW MANY MEMBERS?

mesadave · Post by **mesadave** » Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:10 am

Hello. I'm just curious as to how many members there really are on this forum. It would appear the registered number includes all those that had registered on the old site and most of them never posted or were active.

Also, how many subscribers are there to The Hatchet. It seems to be a hidden treasure except for those that might land at this website...no advertising or promotion of it anywhere I know of.

I ask these questions because almost everybody has heard of Lizzie Borden even if they only know about the 1975 t.v. movie Legends of LB, or the rhyme. So why are there so few people gravitated to this forum?
Lizzie books sell big, there's interest well beyond the US. So I am perplexed as to why there aren't more active users on this forum. Never seems to be more than 20-25 people signed on, but then if you don't "log off" the system indicates you're logged on even when you are at another website. So I can't gauge it that way.

What would be a good way to promote this Board? I think the content is excellent due to the knowledge of some of the regular posters, particularly "Kat". Also the resources are pretty outstanding. More people should know about this. Googling leads you to the Peartree press and allows you to select, but maybe people don't even both doing that. Something flashy needs to be done to get people, once they get to lizzieandrewborden.com to jump into this forum. The registering is easy, but even the "lurker"/"guest" indicators are in the single digits.

It's a mystery to me, so I ask: How many bonafide registered users asre there to this forum and how many paid subscribers are there to The Hatchet.? So many high quality and valuable information wasted on so few. And I don't mean that maliciously. Quite the opposite. I think more peopl should know about this board and I think there needs to be a way to get the word out.

Thanks for listening (I mean reading).

BTW, I believe Lizzie did it. Didja all realize Cook Borden lived on Fourth Street in 1892 directly across from Sarah Whitehead? House still stands. Alexander Milne house is next to Whitehead house.

Thanks,
David

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Fri Sep 10, 2004 8:10 pm

Hi MesaDave, welcome to the forum. Yes, this site and The Hatchet are both hidden treasures, I'm so glad that I found it when I did! There seems to be many links to this site from other sites about Lizzie, I really can't think of another way online to get peoples attention. I know there are lurkers who like to pop by and read the posts, they just don't enjoy posting themselves, I guess?

Stefani would have to answer your question as to how many registered members there are, I believe there are many times where people who are registered log on, but, don't post anything, just read whats already there. Not indifference, just busy with their projects.

I personally haven't subscribed to The Hatchet yet, keep meaning to, as I know I'm missing out on some great stuff from the sounds of it!

mesadave · Post by **mesadave** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 9:12 am

Hello Susan. I don't generally post to forums and I've only corresponded with two other members here.

Wanted to mention that the front of the Superior Court in New Bedford has now changed forever after 150 years. Until a month or so ago there never was handicap access. Now there is one long concrete path leading from the sidewalk to the front, then curving to the right upwards as a ramp. Both sides of the path and the ramp have a 4-1/2 foot tall rod iron fence/railing. This has altered the outside look of the building considerally with this "modern" adjustment. Quite shocking after having seen it prior to this addition. For 150 years, postcards, sketches, photographs of that front exterior of the structure remained the same. Not anymore. Progress. The interior of the courtroom, I'm happy to say, has not been altereered. Cases involving wheelchair witnesses, accused, or jury are not booked in that courtroom, but rather the one downstairs.

The Fall River Library has, since its restoration, now has a room dedicated to the case and Fall River history, "The Fall River Room". Laurel DeStefano makes the reservations for its use. ALL their material on the case is readily available in one central location with complete access by the public. Before, you had to ask for things piecemeal.

The 5 & 10 Cents Bank, of which Charles Holmes was Treasurer from age 22 for 30 years, still stands intact. Exterior that is. The interior is altered consideerably.

On another topic, I've wondered about this fact: Sarah Gray Whitehead was 1 year old when Andrfew married Abby. Lizzie was 2 years and 9 months. You'd think they would have grown up, these little toddlers, as playmates and friends, what with Abby being the aunt and stepmother. But I think Emma asserted her "rights by prior possession" persona against Abby, with regards to little Lizzie, thus creating an ever-widdening chasm of affection emanating both ways. Lizzie could not have had a cognizant hatred or even dislike of Abby at that age. I believe Emma planted that seed and nurtured it. "She's mine. Keep your affections and hands off" kinda thing. Then, I think as Lizzie grew to understand what the Borden name (and ENTITLEMENT) meant, her dislike of Abby grew and festered until 1887 when long supressed animosity finally blew the cork off, and definitely exploded 5 years later.

One final thing, not often addressed. Letters and postcards. McGuirk interviewed Lizzie in Taunton and Lizzie referenced responding to all the cards and letters she received. Lizzie also received many congratulatory letters upon her conviction, and Emma was quoted as saying, during the Trial to a reporter, that she herself received many letters of sympathy supporting her and her sister. So where are these? If they were passed on to Grace Hartley Howe, perhaps her grandchildren have them (Lizzie's letters) or maybe Lizzie threw them all out as memories "of an unpleasant" business, as she did with trial physical evidence artifacts to Moody. I think it was Moody.

Anyway, I sure wish those letters exist and surface sometime.

Thanks for reading.

David

mesadave · Post by **mesadave** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 9:16 am

Good grief. Last prior of my post, I meant to say "ACQUITTAL", not "CONVICTION."

I apologize.

lydiapinkham · Post by **lydiapinkham** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 3:54 pm

Hi, Mesadave. Always nice to see a new face around here. Are you from Fall River? You seem to know the town awfully well for an Arizonan. I agree with you about Lizzie's upbringing. I think Emma turned her against Abby. I also suspect that Abby turned to Sarah as the daughter she couldn't have. Animosity would have festered all around for years.

I agree that Lizzie did it--but with help. I take The Hatchet and am a regular contributor, so I would also like to see more subscribers!

Kat, will the October documentary give the web address and info about The Hatchet? That would reach a lot of new people.

--Lyddie

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:54 pm

I don't know the answer to that, Lyddie.

I was asked what I wanted under my name (if I make it into the video) and I said "Eccentric."
That was on 4 hours sleep.

We agreed I could change that later.
I did write the Producer and told him what to put, which would be Assistant Editor of the Online Magazine, The Hatchet.
He agreed.
But as MM always says, once you give your interview they can do just about anything with it.
We'll see.

Hello Mesa

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 10:53 am

Ooooo, Kat, when is the date of the documentary again and what channel, please? I'm so excited, its almost here! I'll make sure my sweetie TiVos it so I can watch it few times without the commercials.

mesadave · Post by **mesadave** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 4:08 pm

Hello, yes I know alot about Fall River. Used to do business there and have visited frequently over the years. Also business in Newport, RI and still vacation there and then go over to Fall River. The new The Braytons of Somerset and Fall River by Roswell Brayton was latest purchase there and it mentions a few of the 4th generation from his geneology that I still know.

I didnt' know about a new video but I have to caution anyone that creative editing can make even the most informed and stable individuals look like whacko's. All depends upon what they are aiming for in the ratings. The intellectual crowd or the "ooooohhhh, ghosts and ectoplasm" crowd. Ha ha. So hopefully, whatever it is it will do justice to the story and those they interviewed. I liked the one with Bill Pavao as William S. Borden. It gave a "fair and balanced" representation of the different theories, I think, and was well scripted, photographed, filmed and edited.
I'd really like to see a full length film, big. Titanic, GWTW, big, engulfing more than just the murders. Spielberg directing. The farmer guy in "Babe" as Andrew. Danny DiVito as Officer Allen. Vanessa Redgrave as Alice Russell.

Anyway, back to the new Brayton book. He writes in there about6 Lizzie than Alice Brayton belonged to a reading club and one night at a gathering, ehich included some of the Bordens of Fall River, they did a play based on the murders. He says he remembers this as Alice was a distant cousin of his. I find it hard to believe. Most other offerings in the book are all true. He's 90 and the last of that great Brayton lineage who can recall anything significant of Fall River's glory days.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 7:46 pm

I agree with you, MesaDave, I too saw that one with Bill Pavao and felt it gave all the theories a pretty fair shake. That has been a dream of mine for quite some time, to see a big screen adaptation of the Borden story, we've kicked around the idea in the past. I already have some actors and actresses in mind for the movie myself, Kate Winslet as Lizzie, Kathy Bates as Abby Borden, Mary Steenbergen as Emma Borden, etc.

Didn't know there was a new book out by one of Fall River's own, interesting. Did it just come out?

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 8:13 pm

I love the idea of Kathy Bates as Abby. What about Stockard Channing as Lizzie ? I know she's older now than Lizzie was in 1892...but there's always make-up...

Tracy...

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 1:07 pm

Good idea, Mesa Dave. Got any ideas on how the website can be publicized? How did you find us?

mesadave · Post by **mesadave** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 3:38 pm

Susan - I got the Brayton book when I my fiance' and I were in Fall River, staying at the B&B, which we've done before. Heard about it from Dennis, asst curator of the FRHS. Roswell's generation and the 4 before him lived at 240 Main, which was later given to the City and now houses the library. Also his antecedents lived in the Mansion House for decades and decades. The Braytons, Durfees and Bordens are all intertwined. One really has to study them to know Fall River and one really has to know Fall River to know Lizzie Borden. I like researching and finding and going to the places our elusive Miss Borden went to. Such as King Covel's house on Farewell in Newport. We actually had our picture taken on the very porch where Lizzie stood. The elderly lady there was abrupt, but gave us permission to come onto the porch to do so. ALL the surrounding houses are exactly as they were in 1893, so standing on the porch like that you look around and see exactly what Lizzie saw when she posed for that picture, including all the trees, which are much bigger now. The owner told us that this huge climbing rose bush/tree on the side of the porch was there when Lizzie and her sister visited after the trial. Shelly, took a pedal of a rose and pressed it one of the Lizzie books we had.

I lurk on several true crime-based boards and a couple of non-crime related boards. I rarely post to any of them. I joined this one about 2 months ago I guess. My fiance, Shelly, has been a "Lizzie" student of mine for 3 years now. She decided she better bone up when my daughter, who is 11, and frequently converses with me about the case, began to ask Shelly questions which she couldn't answer. Now the 3 of us can have very enthusiastic, informed, discussions and it delights me to no end.

As to promoting the board, I just don't think the Internet is the best magnet for attracting those interested. T.V. is. I'd like to see a true crime drama series, one hour programs that are specific to the 1850's thru the 1950's. Frankly, after the Black Dahlia in 1947, I think all that's come since is just sociopathic psychopaths with a sharp knife, piece of rope, taste for flesh, and a bequiling smile. Not much depth or texture or substance. The Victorian whodunnits are real pips, however. A well done t.v. program, and I'm talking West Wing & Deadwood quality script writing, would generate interest for people to study more. There are "societies" that have annual conferences, produce monthly newsletters and have memberships in the 4 digit numbers. I know, I belong to some of them. THAT's where the real exchange of expertise happens. People who have expertise in this case, and I've met quite a number over the years, just plain don't like to participate in forum based knowledge exchange. I guess there's alot of internet phobia still out there for those in their 60's and 70's. The current generation is, of course, internet-babies. But this would lead to real off topic stuff so I won't continue with it.

However, it IS the topic to repeat the question: How many real members are there? How many subscribe to the Hatchet? I suspect the numbers are less than 50 and that should, in itself, validate my theory. Interested and knowlegeable people, not to mention decedents of the principals of the case are out there. They just aren't *here* in great numbers.

Thanks for reading,
David

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:47 pm

Thanks for the info, MesaDave. How exciting to stand on the same porch as Lizzie and have your photo taken in the same spot! Did you get to use a chair as a prop by any chance? Or was the woman there too curt with you and your fiance?

I love that you and your family can discuss cases together like that, not a usual family pastime, but, still cool! I think it opens the mind for more learning about a great many things.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:56 pm

Susan you have to subscribe to The Hatchet!
Our Sherry visited the house this past spring and wrote about it and gave us pictures, both of the seaside home built 1895 [edit here: Purchased 1895 ], and the Farewell St. property where Lizzie R&R'd.
Apparently the seaside B&B has now the furnishings from the Farewell St. place.

She recounted her conversations as well, with the gracious owner of one of the houses.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 8:11 pm

I know I do, Kat, I realize I'm missing out on alot of great stuff! And I realize that its not that expensive, but, I have to save my money at the moment. I got hit with the bad luck triple whammy! First my root canal/crown, which I don't have dental insurance for, my car just sprang a gas leak the other day, and now I just found out that my apartment complex is going condo and I have to move. Can't a girl just get a break once in awhile?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 12:07 am

Sorry girl! At least there's a fiance to ride out troubles with you!

I need to ammend my statement about the Washington Street house built in 1895- it should be Purchased in 1895 by the Covell's.
(The house on the water).

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 2:57 am

'Tis true, he is being my pillar of strength right now and dealing with my crying jags the best a guy can, I really love him all the more for it!

Bob Gutowski · Post by **Bob Gutowski** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 10:22 am

Ms. Channing, even with her extensive plastic surgery, will never see "dewy youth" again. I'd love to see an HBO flick on the murders, and I'd adore James Cromwell and Kathy Bates as the bouncing Bordens. I'm looking forward to the docu, of course.

I am a member here, and a subscriber, too!

stuartwsa · Post by **stuartwsa** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 6:33 pm

It wasn't so long ago that I thought that Kathy Bates would make the perfect Lizzie Borden. Now she's being pegged for the part of Abby. My, how Time marches on!

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Sat Sep 18, 2004 8:16 pm

No offense to Mesa Dave. But, no - you can't sit on the porch at the Farewell Street house in Newport, where Lizzie 'rode and rested' after the trial, and see exactly what Lizzie did. More than the trees are different. And you cannot stand in the same spot that Lizzie had her photo taken. I don't want to say more here, because I would be rewriting my 'Hatchet' article, and that would not be fair to all of us who pay to subscribe. Just didn't want people getting the wrong idea about the house today.
- Sherry Chapman

Nancie · Post by **Nancie** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 5:34 pm

well, I am a member of forum and subscriber of the Hatchet because
I am a serious student of the Borden case. I have experienced that
forum administrators don't want you to be personal and talk about your
own life, it often causes conflicts. So that is why the forum is so dull lately.
But I will still check in, I respect Kat and Harry's opinions about things.

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