Spur of the moment or well thought out?

[snokkums]

I reading another post, and it got me to thinking. Did Lizzie think this out, plan it out, or did she just snap and act?
Kind of the spur of the moment act? I mean, after all the years of living what she thought was beneath standards, did she just fly off the handle and kill them? I can't take it anymore kind of thing.

[beanbolt]

If Lizzie did it I think it was a little of both but not much of either. As in she thought about it for a while but the plan itself doesn't seem incredibly planned. It seems to me like it would make more sense to do it at night and stage it as a robbery. I think it was something chewing away at the back of her mind for years and finally she just did it without a whole lot of forethought.

Didn't I read that she shoplifted for years and her father always paid for what she stole? She may have thought she was a criminal mastermind!

[kssunflower]

It's my belief that she had a premeditated plan to do away with Abby (posioning), though I'm not sure about Andrew. But due to something that was either said or occurred the night before or that morning, she went into a fit of rage and murdered Abby. I still think Andrew could have been a victim of circumstances. Maybe she didn't feel the same rage, but had to emulate Abby's murder to make it look consistent.

[doug65oh]

kssunflower observed: "I still think Andrew could have been a victim of circumstances. Maybe she didn't feel the same rage, but had to emulate Abby's murder to make it look consistent."

I like that line of thinking. Perhaps he was indeed a victim of circumstances. What do you think of this - and for sake of example we'll presume the killer to be Lizzie: How would Andrew have reacted if he himself had discovered the body in the guest room?

[joe1956]

I go along with those who think Mrs. Borden's murder was well planned, and that Mr. Andrew's murder was "spur of the moment" and unavoidable.

Lizzie knew that Mrs. Borden would die that morning. Although there were accomplices, it was Lizzie who did the terrible deed. Mr. Borden simply walked in before Lizzie could get out of the house. I think Lizzie planned on being seen around town before her papa ever got home, but in he walked and there she was on the landing/in the kitchen/...... Lizzie knew that her papa would immediately put two and two together, and know Lizzie murdered poor old Abby. Mr. Borden may have been able to tolerate Lizzie's shoplifting, her theft of Mrs. Borden's belongings, and even Lizzie's daily coldness toward Mrs. Borden, but not this.....murder!! Can you see Lizzie being admitted to the Taunton Insane Asylum? I think flashes of that scenario were being seen by nervous Lizzie that morning.

Lizzie knew Mrs. Borden lie dead upstairs, and that Mr. Borden was home! He, therefore, must go the way of Mrs. Borden. Whack, whack, and the deed was done.

My question is: Why didn't Lizzie leave the house earlier? Uncle John knew how to set up his alibi. After Lizzie had cleaned up from murdering Mrs. Borden, why didn't she make a straight line to Main Street being very visable as she window shopped? Why would she hang around the house? This question is the reason I can never say that my belief of Lizzie's guilt is 100%. It is just about 99.9% though.

[beanbolt]

Although there were accomplices, it was Lizzie who did the terrible deed. Mr. Borden simply walked in before Lizzie could get out of the house. I think Lizzie planned on being seen around town before her papa ever got home, but in he walked and there she was on the landing/in the kitchen/...... Lizzie knew that her papa would immediately put two and two together, and know Lizzie murdered poor old Abby.

That's a good point. I never really thought about it that way. By this scenario, should Bridget be considered an accomplice as well? Wouldn't she have been a potential victim otherwise?

[joe1956]

I think Bridget knew what happened that August morning, but after the fact. I don't think she had anything to do with it. I always look at Bridget as someone who was there while all this was going on, but she was absorbed by her work (the windows...etc.). It was only after the murders that Bridget looked around and figured out whodunit. Whether she was paid off to keep quiet or she just kept quiet out of fear, I do know she never spent another night in that house.

As we all know, years later Bridget seemed to be ready to say something important about the murders when she thought she was dying. I am pleased that her health recovered, and did not feel the need to share anything. But, damn! I sure wish I knew what she wanted to share.

[snokkums]

I personally think that she thought about over the years, but never acted upon it. The, on Aug 4th, 1892, she snapped. I don't she thought about a plan until that day.

I don't think that Andrew was a victim of circumstances. While I think she killed Abby because of hate and jealousy, she killed Andrew because he was cheep. lizzie felt they needed to be living on the hill. What better way to get there than to inheirit the money.

I think she started planning to kill Andrew and Abby on that day. She was trying hard to get Bridget out of the house. And everyone else was gone, so what a perfect alibi! I mean, if no one is there to see that you did it there are no witnesses. I could have been you or it could have been an intruder. If Lizzie was in the barn or outside or where ever, someone could have come in did the deed and left. And who is to say it didn't happen like that? Lizzie was the only other one there.

But that theory is moot, because Bridget was there, in and out the house.

[DJ]

If you believe Lizzie attempted to obtain the prussic acid for a sinister purpose, then that's evidence of premeditation.
*************************************************************
She couldn't have killed Mrs. Borden and then NOT have killed her Father, as he would have had a pretty good idea of the culprit. He HAD to go, too.
*************************************************************
After all, Lizzie's motive would have been the money, would have been NONE going to Abby, nor Abby's family. We know how she felt about that: So strongly, that she stopped calling Abby her "Mother."
*************************************************************
Things had gone from worse to horrible in that household, at the outset of the summer, leading to the daughters packing up and leaving. I believe Lizzie got a taste of how life could be without a sizeable inheritance, and I believe she returned to Fall River with the intent of murder.
*************************************************************
Why the Fourth? The police were picnicking. During the day. Also, most of the citizenry was preoccupied during daylight hours, especially around noontime. Even the housewives, shopping and cooking. There was a lot of traffic, a lot of hurly-burly. It was as good a time as any to stage a murder, or two.
*************************************************************
Emma and Lizzie had to have known about their Father's plans for a new will, at least from Uncle Morse. That he was planning to "give away" some properties.
Mr. Borden may have told them as much himself. He was probably planning to have his new will signed and sealed before his upcoming birthday, that September.
Once that was in place, there could have been ironclad stipulations for Abby's share being distributed among whomever she chose as beneficiaries.
Even if there weren't such stipulations, Uncle Morse testifies that Mr. Borden is planning to will property out of the family, to charity.
*************************************************************
With a will in place, Lizzie and Emma stood to lose, regardless of who died and when.
With no will in place, they stood to gain it all, no matter what Mr. Borden's intentions had been.
*************************************************************
If Lizzie wanted the money that she enjoyed so thoroughly after she was acquitted, she had to act within a limited time frame to obtain her desires.
*************************************************************
Mr. Borden had hassled with his daughters over property and money. He believed someone in the household (namely, Lizzie) had staged a robbery. Evidently, he was picking up the tabs for Lizzie's five-finger discounts.
He could have "punished" his daughters in his will, particularly Lizzie. He could have set up some sort of trust, with a meager annual disbursement to each. No doubt Lizzie feared as much.

[Shelley]

I think the plan of doing away with Abby had been entertained for a time. I do believe Eli Bence. Poison may have been the intended means but the plan backfired. Either she did not get what she needed, or the attempt when awry and the dosage was off or the dose was vomited up and did not have the desired effect.

When Abby prattled on to Bowen about being poisoned on Wednesday morning, she may have sealed her fate for only a few hours later on the same day Lizzie was producing that remarkable tale for Alice about poisoned milk, evil intruders,the house being burned down around them, etc.
Nobody just pops out of bed, comes downstairs and eats a cookie, talks to the family, then goes into a murderous rage and killing spree with a hatchet without great provocation. Something happened that morning after the men left. I wonder if Abby accused Lizzie of tampering with her food that morning and Lizzie panicked. Abby must have known who was behind that break in to her bedroom. When Andrew came home, the note story kept him at bay for a short time, but it was not going to work forever. He knew Lizzie was in the house all morning and had no alibi-but more than anyone else, he knew how much Lizzie disliked her stepmother and he probably knew about her temperament. I agree his killing was a necessary if unfortunate consequence of his arrival home. Self-preservation is a compelling motive- and fear. Andrew would not overlook a little thing like homicide and it would have been the gallows or Taunton Asylum for Lizzie then. Lunatics could not inherit either.

[1bigsteve]

I think it was planned out. Keeping the blood off herself and hiding the weapon seems planned to me. I feel money was probably the biggest motivator. Lizzie was getting older and wanted to make her "mark" on Fall River Society rather than being known as an old spinster.

-1bigsteve (o:

[Kat]

It was mentioned earlier in a post that Bridget "never stayed another night in that house." I will just give the citation, that shows she did sleep away Thursday night, returned Friday to do the work, slept in the Borden house Friday night, did the Saturday work (funeral day), went away Saturday night and never stayed there again. But she did come back Monday to work. Note she was not there Sunday- the day Lizzie burned the clothing.

Bridget
Trial
pages 294-5
Re-direct by Moody
Q. Did you remain at the house after the homicide any length of time?
A. I staid there. I went out Thursday night and slept out in Mrs. Miller's girl's house, and Friday night I slept in the house.

Q. You mean Mrs. Miller's house with the girl?
A. With the
(295)
servant. I slept with her Thursday night.

Q. On Thursday night?
A. Yes, sir, and I came back Friday morning, staid there all through the time and did the work and Friday night I went out and came back and slept in the house.

Q. In the Borden house?
A. Yes, sir, and Saturday night I left for good as I thought, and came back Monday and Mr. Miller said I should not leave the house until he came and took me out.

Q. You did not stay there Saturday night?
A. No, sir,---or Sunday night.

Q. You were not there Sunday morning?
A. No, sir.

Q. Were you there Sunday at all for any part of the day?
A. No, sir, I came there Monday morning.

--Also, it has been stated as fact, it seems I think, that Lizzie was a shoplifter, and Mr. Borden paid for it. This is an ongoing question- does everyone subscribe to this?

[Angel]

Can you imagine the panic Bridget must have felt when Lizzie told her she had been out in the barn during the time of Andrew's murder? Bridget would have realized that since she was the only one in the house at the time it would have made it look extremely bad for her.

[Harry]

That's an excellent observation, Angel. Bridget was very much afraid of being a suspect and who can blame her.

[Shelley]

If Lizzie were innocent, Bridget also would have realized that she had been alone in the house with a killer too! A killer- and TWO dead bodies. That would sure put my hair on end. Here's a scenario- suppose the killer had gone to the third floor, saw Bridget lying on the bed sleeping, paused a moment thinking, then realized she did not hear anything and then walked away, letting her live! Creepy thought.

[Bob Gutowski]

I'm with you, Shell - we don't know what words passed between Lizzie and Abby that morning leading up to the confrontation in the guest room, but your version, hinging on the poisoning attempts, is rather clever.

[Shelley]

Well, when you think of it, we hear about poison three times the day BEFORE the killings. That is too much for just coincidence: 1. Abby's visit to Bowen, 2. Eli Bences's testimony, 3. and most important, the tale to Alice Russell which clearly says DELIBERATE tampering with the milk. I would allow one coincidence- but three? And I believe Eli Bence- always did. If I were a poisoner and my victim was talking to the family doctor about poison, I would sure cover my tracks. And a hatchet will work every time. Poison was then out of the question as a weapon- that window of opportunity was closed. IF any traces had been left of poison in Abby's stomach, Lizzie effectively had an excuse-the one she gave ALice Wednesday night- somebody had been tampering with the milk.
Abby may have had an idea what was going on and said something to Lizzie after the men left and she and Lizzie were alone. There 's nothing more violent than a killer cornered. I rushed down the front stairs, got a hatchet from the cellar and was back in that guest room in UNDER one minute- in a long dress and with bad knees.

[Bob Gutowski]

Can we take that as a confession, then? I'd REALLY like to move on to Leopold and Loeb...

(Kidding!)

[Shelley]

Ah, ya got me Bob- I just look like a young 148 year old- Botox you know.

[Yooper]

If Abby went to Dr. Bowen complaining of deliberate poisoning, it may have represented a threat to Lizzie. It may have been interpreted as a way for Abby to get rid of Lizzie. Since Dr. Bowen minimized the complaint, the simplest way to counter the threat was to make Abby's fear come true, hence an attempt to buy poison. When this failed, a hatchet was the next best choice, given that the opportunity had fallen into Lizzie's lap with everyone else out of the house. It didn't have to be the threat of a will which provided the impetus for the murders, it might have been the fear that Abby could discredit Lizzie or have her permanently removed from the household. If Abby was talking about her suspicions with others, maybe she had to be silenced permanently at the earliest opportunity. Sooner or later, someone would listen to her and take her seriously.

I think Abby's murder was planned to a degree, but manifested when it did as the result of opportunity, with Bridget outside and Andrew, John, and Emma away at least temporarily. My best guess is that Lizzie was planning to leave before Andrew arrived, but after Bridget finished the windows. If she left before Bridget finished, she ran the risk of Bridget looking for Abby and finding her. She was probably aware that Bridget wasn't feeling well and would try to lie down before lunch. There was no threat of Abby finding other tasks for Bridget at that point. She had to sell the idea of an intruder to Bridget, too. Lizzie told Bridget about the note after telling Andrew the story. I think this was planned as an excuse for why Lizzie hadn't missed Abby all morning, whether she killed Andrew or not. She could not possibly foresee an opportunity to kill Andrew, so I think Andrew's murder was due to circumstance, but she certainly took advantage of the opportunity when it arose.

The problem was, since Lizzie couldn't distance herself from killing Abby by being out of the house as she planned, she couldn't very well leave Andrew alive because he would have immediately suspected that she killed Abby. I think Abby's murder was preplanned, at least to a degree, but Andrew's murder was spur of the moment and necessary due to his arrival time.

[Kat]

I was following up to this point:

If she left before Bridget finished, she ran the risk of Bridget looking for Abby and finding her.

-- partial,Yooper.

Since it sounds like you think it's possible that Andrew's murder "was spur of the moment," are you thinking Lizzie might not have wanted to kill Andrew?

Because, if so, Lizzie killing Abbie very early and cleaning up and leaving without Bridget seeing her leave, would be a pretty good alibi for her, I think. Mainly because even tho Lizzie was on the property, as it transpired, she still got away with it (if she did it).
And Bridget finding the body might be pretty rare as she had no reason to go up the front stairs. But even if Bridget went up there because she was wondering where Abbie was, having her find the body, and Lizzie not at home, would work out pretty well for Lizzie, wouldn't it- if she did not want or mean or plan to kill Andrew?

[Angel]

My best guess is that Lizzie was planning to leave before Andrew arrived, but after Bridget finished the windows. If she left before Bridget finished, she ran the risk of Bridget looking for Abby and finding her. She was probably aware that Bridget wasn't feeling well and would try to lie down before lunch.

For me, that answers the question of why Lizzie stuck around for an hour and a half after the murder of Abby. Bridget was there. She was waiting for an opportunity to leave after Bridget made herself scarce (I'm remembering that Lizzie told her of the fabric sale, then, when that failed, allowed Bridget to lie down after her duties) . She intended to go out and give herself an alibi. Then Andrew came home early and put the kabosh on her original plan. She felt she had to get rid of him too or he would figure out what happened. After cleaning up it was too late to go out so she did the barn alibi thing.

[Bob Gutowski]

"Since Dr. Bowen minimized the complaint, the simplest way to counter the threat was to make Abby's fear come true, hence an attempt to buy poison."

I thought I agreed with you until I read this again, slowly, Yoop.

Let's see. Lizzie knows Abby toddled over to Bowen's, because she told Alice she felt Andrew treated Bowen badly when he came back with Abby to check on her father. So, let's assume Lizzie knows that Abby complained that she's afraid of being poisoned. So, whether or not Lizzie has actually been poisoning Abby and/or Andrew, she decides a good idea would be to rush out and buy a really quick acting poison?

I think this idea only works if she's sure that Abby never mentioned that she thought Lizzie had something to do with it. If, and only if Liz is certain of that, THEN she could go out, presumably buy the poison, kill the old folks, and have had Abby provide her with an alibi - "Someone (not my step-daughter) is trying to poison us." It's the same alibi Lizzie sets up with Alice later that evening.

But unless Lizzie was 100% sure Abby had no idea Lizzie was involved, or 100% sure Abby didn't even voice her suspicions to Bowen, she'd be nuts to run out and do what Abby told Dr. Bowen she, Lizzie, was doing.

All too easy that afternoon for Dr, Bowen, looking at the two dead, poisoned (and NOT bludgeoned) Bordens, to regretfully tell the police that Mrs. Borden had suspected her youngest step-daughter of some murderous intent.

Therefore, if we believe that Lizzie did run out to buy poison after she found out that Abby betrayed a fear of being poisoned, it may not have been a clever move at all, but a rather reckless one, and she was lucky to have the (admittedly pro-Lizzie) court omit Bence's testimony.

[Shelley]

Unless we believe that Abby meant FOOD poisoning. Her reference to knowing somebody who had been poisoned with cream cakes suggest she meant that. And Andrew's dosing of himself with Garfield Tea which was a remedy for "Summer Complaint" suggest to me that it was food poisoning they thought they had. I thought it very interesting that Lizzie scooted right upstairs when Bowen came over later in the morning to check on Abby.Odd , if Lizzie were truly ill as she said that she did not want to see the doctor. The timing is interesting too for according to Bence, it was after Bowen's house call that Lizzie was at the pharmacy sometime between 10-11 I think he said. This thing could be viewed two ways, either Lizzie had tried to dose the old couple with poison and they thought it was merely food poisoning, or Lizzie got the idea to go for the Prussic Acid hoping the food poisoning notion would be the perfect cover -up and no autopsy would be done because Bowen would assume Abby died of accute gastro-enteritis or salmonella or bottulism or something along those lines. I have always had a vision of Morse and the old couple sitting around the night before the murder while Lizzie was at Alice's and Abby and Andrew complaining to John how they felt like the devil and were as sick as dogs- and then Morse laughingly suggesting maybe Lizzie was putting arsenic in the mutton broth! What was meant as a joke, as Morse must have known that the women did not get along, lingered on Abby's mind that night -and when morning came she said something to Lizzie, prompting the chain of events.

[Bob Gutowski]

Thank you for clarifying this train of thought. Lizzie would just jump aboard the "food poisoning" train, as it were. Gotcha.

[DJ]

I believe Lizzie could have cleaned up and gotten out of the house before her Father arrived home, in order to establish an alibi, if that had been her intent. She had about an hour, give or take a few minutes.
However, and this is a huge "however," what would have stopped Mr. Borden from believing that she had killed Abby?
Also, if Lizzie had skipped out, wouldn't that have made her look all the more guilty?
*************************************************************
Say Lizzie skipped out for an alibi-- say Mr. Borden lived. Who takes the rap? Bridget would have squawked like a parrot. It would have done Lizzie no good to have made it seem as if Bridget had killed Mrs. Borden, when Bridget could have said Lizzie sneaked in (back) and did it, as Lizzie would have taken her key to the front door. AND-- it was "the girls" who hated Mrs. Borden. It would have done Lizzie no good to have had all that come out, even from an Irish maid, especially since the ill will could have been corroborated by other, extended family members and acquaintances, among them Uncle Hiram.
*************************************************************
I believe Shelley has mentioned several times that, if Lizzie just intended to kill Mrs. Borden-- AND make it look like an accident-- a good push down the stairs (plus maybe a blow to the head, after the fall, if necessary) would have easily done the trick.
If Andrew had lived to make a will-- and if he had suspicioned that Lizzie killed Abby-- then Lizzie was a very dim bulb indeed. This, I strongly doubt.
*************************************************************
I believe the murders were committed gruesomely to make it seem as
if a MAN had committed them, not Miss Lizzie A. Borden.
(And that they were planned with Emma's and Uncle Morse's knowledge, but I won't get into THAT again.)

[Bob Gutowski]

Lizzie, presumably not knowing that the time of a death can be determined, would've lied her teeth off about not knowing where Abby was, I bet. She never would've told Andrew Abby went out, but might've said she herself was dozing in the kitchen (which would've put her far away from the front part of the house) while reading that magazine, dealing with recalcitrant irons, etc. If Andrew bought it, she might've gone out for a walk.

In fact, even in the existing scenario, something about Lizzie having told Andrew the lie about the "note" might've resulted in her not going out as much as Andrew's return did. We don't know that Andrew, after Bridget went upstairs, started to grill Lizzie about Abby's whereabouts.

Pure conjecture, of course. Still the part of Victoria Lincoln's book I believe is that Andrew's death was not intended as part of the day's fun.

[Shelley]

Yes- it always does come back to the note business doesn't it? That is a point which has always been so very fishy to me. I often wondered if Sarah Whitehead had sent a note Wednesday asking Abby to come over, and Abby sent back a reply that she was sick and could not come on Wednesday, then Lizzie uses that note story on the Thursday to keep Andrew from prowling upstairs looking for his wife, and Sarah Whitehead kept her mouth shut afterwards on purpose because she had no intentions of helping Lizzie out.

[Yooper]

I'll try to clarify my earlier post. I firmly believe that Abby went to Dr. Bowen with a specific complaint about being deliberately poisoned. Dr. Bowen's comment the day of the murders bears this out, he stated that he was satisfied something was wrong because of Abby's visit. There is no logical progression from food poisoning to a hatchet murder without this intermediary. Dr. Bowen's reaction to Abby's complaint was to treat her for food poisoning, for whatever reason. If Lizzie was aware of both Abby's reason for the visit and Dr. Bowen's diagnosis, then either Abby understated the complaint or Dr. Bowen underestimated the gravity of it. In either case, it meant that Abby wasn't taken seriously, or Dr. Bowen didn't believe anyone, Lizzie included, would intentionally poison Abby, or both. It meant that Lizzie might not be immediately suspected if anyone died of poisoning and that may have encouraged her to try it. I think she just wanted Abby dead. Soon.

I don't think she wanted to kill both Abby and Andrew, Abby was the priority. Perhaps she was undecided about Andrew, but given the opportunity, why not? They can only hang you once. Andrew's presence before Bridget was out of the way was a stumbling block. She couldn't necessarily convince Andrew that an intruder killed Abby at that point. The best she could have done was to appear very calm and collected, and say she thought Abby was out of the house, and this information was probably better offered than requested. The story about the note works well as the reason she was unconcerned about Abby's absence all morning, no matter when or to whom she tells it.

[Yooper]

Just another thought, if Lizzie had poisoned the Bordens or left the house after killing Abby to establish an alibi, either way it left Bridget holding the bag. Bridget was the cook, and Bridget would have supposedly been the only one in or near the house with Abby. Lizzie was presumably quietly waiting upstairs for Bridget to leave when Andrew arrived. If Bridget went to lie down without coming up the front stairs and finding Abby, then Bridget would not know when Lizzie left the house. Lizzie could then claim she left shortly after talking to Bridget at the back door as Bridget went to wash windows.

[kssunflower]

Just another thought, if Lizzie had poisoned the Bordens or left the house after killing Abby to establish an alibi, either way it left Bridget holding the bag. Bridget was the cook, and Bridget would have supposedly been the only one in or near the house with Abby. Lizzie was presumably quietly waiting upstairs for Bridget to leave when Andrew arrived. If Bridget went to lie down without coming up the front stairs and finding Abby, then Bridget would not know when Lizzie left the house. Lizzie could then claim she left shortly after talking to Bridget at the back door as Bridget went to wash windows.

I have thought of this too and wondered why Lizzie didn't leave the house after cleaning up from Abby's murder unless there was too much a chance that Bridget might have seen her doing so. Maybe she reconsidered and instead mentioned the Sargent's sale, trying to be rid of Bridget. She could then leave and place the blame on Bridget or an intuder. But then Andrew came home and foiled her plans.

[Grace]

*************************************************************
I believe the murders were committed gruesomely to make it seem as
if a MAN had committed them, not Miss Lizzie A. Borden.
(And that they were planned with Emma's and Uncle Morse's knowledge, but I won't get into THAT again.)

Without knowing DJ's entire theory, I DO totally agree with this premise as stated. There is no way that Uncle John and Emma were completely clueless, MHO based on their actions.

[Smudgeman]

I definitely think Lizzie was planning on getting rid of Abby, but I don't think it happened like she would have wanted it. She was extremely lucky to have pulled it off. I agree with Shelley that there were probably some words between Abby and Lizzie before the murder, and Lizzie just went into a RAGE. She had probably been eavesdropping on Uncle John, Andrew, and Abby before, therefore warning Alice something was going to happen. I think Lizzie had very big ears. If she had of been successful in poisoning Abby, then she would not have to worry about killing her father. She could have left the house with no knowledge that Abby had food poisoning, but after her attack she was stuck guarding the body. She had to wait for Andrew and get rid of him too.

[Yooper]

Just another thought, if Lizzie had poisoned the Bordens or left the house after killing Abby to establish an alibi, either way it left Bridget holding the bag. Bridget was the cook, and Bridget would have supposedly been the only one in or near the house with Abby. Lizzie was presumably quietly waiting upstairs for Bridget to leave when Andrew arrived. If Bridget went to lie down without coming up the front stairs and finding Abby, then Bridget would not know when Lizzie left the house. Lizzie could then claim she left shortly after talking to Bridget at the back door as Bridget went to wash windows.

I have thought of this too and wondered why Lizzie didn't leave the house after cleaning up from Abby's murder unless there was too much a chance that Bridget might have seen her doing so. Maybe she reconsidered and instead mentioned the Sargent's sale, trying to be rid of Bridget. She could then leave and place the blame on Bridget or an intuder. But then Andrew came home and foiled her plans.

Lizzie's waiting around after Abby's murder could well have been for both reasons, Bridget might have seen her leave, and Bridget might have discovered Abby shortly thereafter. Bridget stated that she never had reason to go up the front stairs, but could Lizzie have counted on that at the time? Lizzie didn't know what Bridget might do if she was left by herself in Lizzie's absence. It always struck me as odd that Lizzie was upstairs in relatively close proximity to Abby's body when Andrew arrived. It almost seemed like she was protecting her kill, but from whom? From Andrew if she was planning on his arrival and was planning his murder, too. But how could she foresee the opportunity to kill Andrew? She was more likely guarding against early discovery of Abby by Bridget. She had to know that Bridget had not found Abby before she could claim to have left the house at a relatively early hour. Lizzie seemed to need to distance herself from the events, and an alibi of being away from the house for most of the morning allows for that both timewise and spatially.

[Bob Gutowski]

I think you might be "worrying" too much about Bridget going up the front stairs and finding Abby. She wasn't to go there OR the elder Borden's chamber - "themselves took care of their own rooms." My supposition is that as trusted and liked as Bridget may have been, the bedrooms, full of personal items, were strictly off-limit to the Irish maid unless she was specifically asked to accompany Mrs. B. to one of them.

Or to head up to "look for Mrs. Borden" on August 4th, 1892.

[DJ]

Lizzie gives her Father the letter to Emma to mail that a.m.
Obviously, she wants him out of the house, so she can take on Mrs. Borden without intrusion-- without Mr. Borden's hearing a possible struggle, scream, or heavy fall to the floor.
************************************************************
At the same time, Lizzie most probably knows her father has intestinal upset-- that he probably won't be out for long, that he'll be back earlier than usual. Surely, she discreetly but thoroughly grilled everyone who would answer her questions about her Father's planned activities that a.m., including her Father.
*************************************************************
IOW: I believe she fully intended to get to Mr. Borden, at some point, that a.m. She certainly wouldn't have killed him first, allowing any sort of chance for Abby to inherit anything.
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{{{If she and her Uncle lied, and did communicate that a.m., as they easily could have-- all he had to do was to slip upstairs and debrief her about what was going on-- then Lizzie would have had a pretty good idea of the time frame in which she could, shall we say, execute her business that a.m. Anyway, I find it odd that J.V.M. just hangs around the sitting room for a good while, after breakfast, that a.m., if he is to be believed. Why not compose the letter upon which he later writes "Rush," or some such, if it's all that important? Or, why not set out for Weybosset Street, if he's walking all the way? Why not get up from the breakfast table, and say, "Thank you, and I'll be about my business"? After all, Abby sets about doing her house chores, as JVM testifies. She's not entertaining him in the interim. Why's he just sitting there? Odd.}}}

[Yooper]

I agree, Bridget ordinarily had no business on the second floor at all. The guest room was not a private bedroom, however. She might well go there when looking for Abby, as well as the dining room or the sitting room. The important question is whether Lizzie could count on Bridget to not go to the guest room. If Lizzie murdered Abby, her life might well depend on her moves afterward. Would Lizzie bet her life on Bridget not going to the guest room?

If Lizzie was planning to leave the house to establish an alibi, she would probably need to seem unaware of Abby's death until she arrived back home, or until she heard it from someone while she was out. Andrew and Bridget would likely have talked to the police by then, and Lizzie wouldn't know what Bridget told them about when Lizzie left the house. The only way she could be absolutely certain that Bridget would be unaware of her whereabouts is to quietly remain upstairs and wait for Bridget to finish the windows.

I don't think Abby's murder was well planned, I think it was an opportunity which had presented itself. My guess is that Lizzie was desperate enough to kill Abby with Bridget just outside the house rather than somewhere further removed. I don't think Lizzie had a lot of time to think of the details.

[Kat]

Partial, DJ--

Or, why not set out for Weybosset Street, if he's walking all the way? Why not get up from the breakfast table, and say, "Thank you, and I'll be about my business"? After all, Abby sets about doing her house chores, as JVM testifies. She's not entertaining him in the interim. Why's he just sitting there? Odd.}}}

Morse said he wanted to wait until the family on Weybosset had finished their morning chores before he went there.
Prelim
Morse
243
Q. Perhaps you better tell what you did after that. I do not care for it particularly, I only ask it in justice to Mr. Morse.
A. I came down to the Post Office and wrote a card, and went from there out to the north door, and went up Third street; from there to Pleasant street, up Pleasant street to Weybosset street, No. 4 to Daniel Emery’s.

Q. That is way up to the eastward?
A. Perhaps a good mile up there.

Q. You have some friends up there that you went to visit?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. Who are they?
A. A niece and a nephew from the West; my brother’s children.

Q. What time did you start to come away from there?
A. I think about 20 minutes past eleven.

Q. How do you fix the time as about quarter to nine when you left the house?
A. Because I thought I would give them time to get their work done up in the morning. I could not go in the afternoon.

--This seems to mean he was being considerate to the Emery family by loitering at the Bordens. Do we know if they were expecting him?
Also, I still wonder why he did not wait for Andrew, as they both were walking the same way.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~

In reply to Yooper, above:

Lizzie ultimately is the one who supposedly asked the ladies to go find Mrs. Borden. So why would Lizzie not want her found- and then wants her found? Lizzie was *in control* of the timing when she raised the alarm- she is in control.
She is better off being gone and hope that people (and Bridget) think she is gone before Abby was killed, instead of in the house. . .Because *out of the house*- even nebulous- if the time can't be pinned down- is better than *in the house with no excuse*, when Abbie's murder occurred.
Neither Bridget, nor Lizzie, have an alibi for when Abbie was killed. It's like Lizzie & Bridget saved each other tho neither saw the other from 9-9:30.
There is the comment

absolutely certain

--Yooper, partial, out of context-(see above), and I can only say that no one is absolutely certain about anything, or anyone's movements, and that context is assuming that Bridget wasn't in on it, or had any hint Abbie's killing was happening when it happened.

[Kat]

From Thursday, Sept 4th post--

The timing is interesting too for according to Bence, it was after Bowen's house call that Lizzie was at the pharmacy sometime between 10-11 I think he said.

--Shelley, partial

Pretty Close: Bence was consistent in saying 10 to 11:30 the morning of the 3rd. He is so wide in his estimate of time it's almost not worth pinning down.
(Bence, inquest, 160)

[Kat]

DJ, partial:

Lizzie gives her Father the letter to Emma to mail that a.m.
Obviously, she wants him out of the house, so she can take on Mrs. Borden without intrusion-- without Mr. Borden's hearing a possible struggle, scream, or heavy fall to the floor.

Also, it has seemed to me that Lizzie really seems to care about that letter and wants to prove it is a real thing and does exist and was returned unopened. I don't know why, or if she has a further strategy here. She gives some extra explanation about it. Maybe to counter-act a fake note? Maybe to let them know Emma did not read whatever she wrote while in Fairhaven? Maybe it's my imagination...

A. She [Emma] had been in Fairhaven.
Q. Had you written to her?
A. Yes sir.
Q. When was the last time you wrote to her?

57 (14)
A. Thursday morning, and my father mailed the letter for me.
Q. Did she get it at Fairhaven?
A. No sir, it was sent back. She did not get it at Fairhaven, for we telegraphed for her, and she got home here Thursday afternoon, and the letter was sent back to this post office.

[Yooper]

Lizzie's exit would have to go unnoticed by Bridget if she was to say that she left the house shortly after Bridget began washing windows. She could not take the chance of being seen by Bridget as she was leaving. Lizzie could also not chance Bridget finding Abby before she left the house. The only way Lizzie could be certain neither occurred was to remain upstairs until Bridget was in a position where she would not notice Lizzie leaving. Then all Bridget could say about it was she last saw and spoke to Lizzie when she began washing windows. It is immaterial when Abby is found or by whom, as long as Lizzie has a chance to exit the house unnoticed anytime prior to the discovery. Who knows what might have become of Bridget if she had tried to come up the stairs while looking for Abby before Andrew arrived? This is all assuming Bridget was not involved beforehand, obviously.

[Societygirl1892]

I think Andrew's murder was spur of the moment...but Abby's death well planned out.
Keep in mind a few things:
Lizzie and Emma could lose out on inheritance if Andrew died first. With no will, Abby becomes his rightful heir and is entitled to I think 1/3 of his estate, Lizzie and Emma also 1/3. But if the will had been changed and control went to Abby, they lose big. Abby had to die first, thereby Andrew inheriting what there is of Abby's estate. With both Abby and Andrew out of the way, Lizzie and Emma inherit both.
John Morse had an ironclad alibi for the morning of the murders. He knew something was going down, and being a male in the household, even as a visitior, he would be the first suspect, probably before even Bridget who was a servant.
I, for one, don't believe Lizzie to be the killer, but I must admit she must have had some knowledge of what truly went down, either as an accomplice or bystander. But the fact remains-in order to inherit all-Abby must die first. Therein lies the problem-depending on how she dies, who is going to be suspected? Probably Lizzie and/or Emma because of their dislike and if it was due to poison, that was the womanly way to murder someone. Andrew suspects, and there goes the inheritance.
But Andrew, I really don't think he was meant to die, but he came home earlier than expected and met his fate.
And I agree too...Bridget must have been terrifed. To know 2 murders took place and she could have been a third if she showed up at the wrong moment. And to think she would be a suspect based on the fact that she was their servant. Not a good place to be in.
Pammie

[DJ]

Kat--
Of course: The irony of Morse's hesitancy in departing for the Emerys' is that he MISSED the nephew, who had already departed.
Because, of course, they weren't expecting him. You know, he had the carriage rented the afternoon and evening before-- why not leave a note at Weybosset Street, or make some sort of communication, to expect him on the morrow?
************************************************************
It's odd to me that Morse professes to be considerate in delaying his departure from the Bordens' that morning, then he turns around and just sits and sits at the Emerys', even though his niece is ill, and poor Mrs. Emery can't get about to preparing her dinner.
*************************************************************
Again, if he's got a card to post, and he writes "rush," or some such on it, why not leave the Bordens' and tend to that?
*************************************************************
As for Lizzie's letter-- among other reasons for sending it: To make it seem as if it were just an ordinary ol' day. Not a person planning murder. No sirree.
[And, being the conspiracy theorist, I believe Uncle Morse was "hanging" at the P.O., or very close nearby, waiting to see whether Mr. Borden had indeed made it out of the house, with Lizzie's letter, before Morse commenced walking to the Emerys'. I don't think Morse wanted to be seen in public with Mr. Borden that a.m., which is why he didn't wait to walk with him. I think Morse wanted to divorce himself from Mr. Borden's actions that a.m., not to make it seem as if Morse were "steering" Mr. Borden, so Lizzie could get to Abby. Morse can say he, Morse, left the house and its occupants to whatever it was they were planning to do. IOW: I believe Lizzie's letter served multiple functions in the long run, not least of which was as a "sign" worked out between her and Morse. I believe that letter is one of the great keys to the case, insofar as it appears to be an effort by Lizzie to seem guileless.]

[Kat]

Well that theory is a new approach to Morse and his tarrying at the P.O. before going on to the Emery's, and somewhat answers my question as to why Morse did not wait to leave with Andrew.
I'm not sure where Andrew went first tho- I don't think he is seen or clocked until 9:30 is it? Some think he was shaved first, but no testimony for that. But even if he did not go to the PO first, he still might have set off in that direction, I suppose, and be seen by Morse if Morse was looking out for him.

In Rebello, page 566, there is "Andrew's Last Walk" and shows the PO as Andrew's stop after the barber- and supposes he went left at Borden Street to go there, but then after that zagging over to the PO by way of Pocasset. Pierre LeDuc has a lot to answer for! Like Andrew Borden's first 20 minutes!

[Kat]

Here is a timeline I made a while ago. See the "Gap." But please also notice the first gap from when Andrew leaves home and is first accounted for by witnesses under oath.
A map might be handy for those who are unsure of where these places were back then.

[DJ]

Well, if Andrew left around nine, and Morse left around eight-forty-five, it does make one wonder why they didn't walk to the P.O. together, especially if Morse had waited around for such a length of time after breakfast, anyway. Why not wait till Mr. Borden was ready? I would have offered to have gone to the P.O. and picked up Mr. Borden's mail, given the way Mr. Borden felt, and written my card, as Morse did, while I was there. It was not that far to the P.O., and it would have been a more constructive use of the time Morse spent sitting around the Bordens' sitting room. He says he was trying to be considerate of his relatives at the Emerys'. Why not be considerate of Mr. Borden, too?
But, wait: There's Lizzie's letter. And she and Morse are allegedly not speaking. There's the rub. Lizzie and Morse seem to be going to great pains to avoid one another, that particular a.m. Yet, their relationship, too, is supposedly "cordial."
************************************************************
I bring this up about Morse running to the P.O. for Mr. Borden, because I frequently do the same for my Mother, when I'm visiting her, as she does not have home delivery. It's a matter of common courtesy, particularly for someone who is not feeling well.
************************************************************
If Andrew had a beard, anyway, and he did stop for a shave somewhere, it's not as if he were walking around with an extreme case of "five o'clock shadow." That is, it wouldn't have mattered that much if he didn't get a shave, first thing off, and walked to the P.O. with Morse.
************************************************************
BTW: KAT-- Has it been determined exactly what was in Mr. Borden's parcel, later burned that a.m., and where it was obtained? It would be interesting to know, at least, where he picked it up, that a.m.

[Kat]

Parcel? We have speculated about that for a long time. He had it and then we don't hear any more about it. Anyone know?

As for it being burned, I'm not sure I understand the question- I don't know that it was burned. Maybe that is someone's theory?

We should also check as to when the PO opened. Maybe, if it didn't open until 9 and Morse wanted to stop there first, that might explain his *loitering* at the Bordens'. And I don't really know the PO rules back then about someone picking up mail for others without an ID and a note- it would be interesting to know that. If mailing something, then sure that makes sense- anyone can do that. But as I think more about it- we don't know if Lizzie might have also given a letter to Morse to mail! hmmm...

When did Morse arrive at the Emery's? Wasn't it around 9:20? It was a mile and a quarter from the Borden house to #4 Weybosset according to Morse, and I think he left about a quarter to 9. He may have some missing time there, and so has Andrew! Maybe Andrew and Morse had a meeting scheduled for outside the house and that's why Morse left a good 15 minutes before Andrew?

[Bob Gutowski]

DJ - very interesting theories about the use of the letter. I don't think anyone really knows what Andrew carried home, though wasn't the broken lock Andrew picked up while with the carpenters found wrapped in a newspaper mailing envelope? Though she's up to too much mischief filling in the blanks, I think Lincoln has some interesting things to say about this; she supposes Lizzie burned whatever Andrew did bring home, and created this stand-in prop after realizing that Andrew might've been by a neighbor or business partner carrying a paper parcel home.

[Kat]

Ooops sorry Bob we crossed posts...I didn't see you there.

[Kat]

If there was a *conspiracy* between Andrew and Morse, a meeting at the PO after leaving the house would make sense as to why they did not go down together.

If there are witnesses that we don't know about- who help fill in this missing time (9 to 9:15 say)- I'd sure like to know about it! Morse could have had a meeting, then taken a car to Weybosset, instead of walking.