Lizzie Borden Society Forum

I think we can safely say that Abby's body was moved. But how much? Dr. Bowen probably moved her arm to check a pulse; it was admitted she was somewhat turned over ("Officer Doherty said 'My God her face is all smashed in'.")
But we wonder and ask about that roll of material around her waist, and the fact that she is found in such a small area for a confrontation with a hatchet. The area was between 34" and 36" I believe. And those shoes so straight up and down.

Then there is the bit of blood on the mop board behind the rocker, past the bureau and before the window. I believe this is the farthest blood found from the body.
We know there is blood on the bottom of the camp chair which was between the East wall and the body.

But could Abby have been attacked farther toward the foot of the bed- maybe standing a foot or so closer to the West wall, past the foot of the bed, and in that larger area, attacked? Then she could fall, and be dragged say 6" to 12" so as to be positioned behind the bed as a way to hide the body? If that roll of material was an apron top, it could roll like that from friction with the carpet, while she's pulled by the arms.
Then her arms would be dropped in a circle above her head which is one way it was first described she was found.

i can't find my testimony printouts, etc., right now. i've got it scattered through the house right now -- and only my VL-related stuff handy.

but your last paragraph is not a bad idea. something especially about the effect on the clothing if she was dragged to be hidden by the bed. also, it is a good explanation for the arms -- as described NOT by bowen, of course, but dolan.

something else comes to mind -- i'll look for morse to check this. but wasn't it morse who said that he went part way up the stairs and saw mrs. borden with blood on her face? i have the image that at that point they had turned her over more or less on her side -- with her face toward the bedroom door.

another idea -- don't know if it can be configured with yours or not -- but one i've had (don't know how it formulated) -- but i see abby standing at the window looking out the window, as if thinking/worried/shaken about something -- just before it happens. [may be dream] but some blood was near the window, wasn't it? i don't remember if on curtains. but now i also remember about that bloody rag -- it was stated at one time as seen near the window, at another time at her head, like between her arms.

sorry no testimony right now for some of above comments -- if i get into this thread, i will get it.

p.s.: see email

Morse said he was told Abby was up there and he went partway up the stairs to see her. Nothing about her face that I recall.
However,
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/CrimeLibrary/
TestimoniesComparative.htm

"Patrick Doherty, upon first visiting the guest room, where Mrs. Borden's body lay, had moved the bed 'away from her head' to make the space wider. He then went to telephone the station, and when he returned spoke to Bridget a few minutes in the kitchen. He then went upstairs, returning to the guest room, and implies Dr. Dolan was also in the room.

'I saw Mr. Morse in the room when I got back from the telephone, when I was looking at Mrs. Borden's body. He stood in the room with his hand on the foot of the bed.' (Preliminary Hearing, p. 330 - 332).

Morse's testimony:

11:50 a.m.

'I went part way up the stairs. I did not go into the room at all, looked under the bed, and saw Mrs. Borden lying there'. . .'They told me' she was up there.

Morse then saw Lizzie (implies in the kitchen), then he went outside for '3 or 4 hours.' (Preliminary Hearing, p. 245, 254)."

Yes, the blood found was near the window- at the bottom on the mop-board.

When the body was photographed it was supposedly in the position in which it was first found. My sense of it is that the earliest witnesses tried to replicate her position, but hey!...

Then there is Dr. Dolan's Preliminary testimony about Abby's body which is quite telling:

Q. As you saw it, without turning it over, what was the appearance of it?
A. You could not see any part of the face. The arms were thrown, as it were, prone around the face. All that was exposed was the right
half of the back of the head.


Q. I won't trouble you any more with that part of the inquiry. What did you do then, did you turn the body over?
A. Yes Sir, I turned the body up so to get to the light to count the wounds better.


Q. She was lying with both hands under?
A. No Sir, more extended over the head, as it were, not over it, but around the head.

Q. This fashion, putting my hands in front of my face?
A. Yes but not resting on the arms; the head in the circle.

Q. In that fashion, with my hands being above the line of my face, and the hands being together?
A. I would not say they were together exactly.

Q. Approaching?
A. Yes Sir.

And we see from the crime scene photos that Abby's arms have moved from Dolan's observation, how much of the rest of her body from turning the body up and such its hard to say.



As to whether Abby's body had been moved shortly after her death by the murderer, I guess we might have a clearer idea if we could have seen pics of Abby's body, unmoved by anyone. Its hard to say what had or hadn't been moved by the doctors or police. The far splash of blood indicates that the murder possibly started elsewhere, by the window or closer to the foot of the bed, but, whether Abby moved of her own volition or if it was the murderer.....? I guess it would depend on whether Abby had fallen at that particular point, after the strike that caused that blood splash or spot. She may have fallen in a spot that was in plain view of the door to the room and may have just been unconcious at that point. Then I can definitely see the killer draggin her body to the side of the bed to hide it more and finish the job. Wasn't most of the blood evidence collected showed that Abby lay there for most of the attack? There may have been other blood evidence which could have been wiped up or obliterated somehow that could have showed that Abby fell somewhere else in the room.

Interesting thought, Kat - that the murderer could have moved Abby's body to keep it out of view. I never thought of that. She was found in a very cramped space - very little room between that bed and dresser with her body there. If she were dragged by the murderer, tho, wouldn't there have been a streak of blood showing on the rug?

And the bloody handkerchief. Bowen said it was laying near her head when he, the first doctor, saw her for the very first time. The handkerchief sounded like it was just saturated with blood. Was it Abby's? Or the murderer's?

There was blood also on the marble top on the dresser, and they took one piece of marble away for evidence/analyization.

'Poor Mrs. Borden' was moved and touched many times over between the time she was seen by the first doctor (Bowen), who took her pulse as you say, until she was finally given her partial autopsy later on, when her stomach was removed, tied at the ends, and sealed in a jar for poison testing.

It's incredible how many doctors came to the house and had their hands on Abby and Andrew both. I ran into a doctor's testimony in the trial who was there that I never even read about in the books before - Dr. Dedrick.

I think this crime photo of Walsh's that Susan posted wasn't taken until like almost 3 pm. By that time, she sure wasn't in the original position.

This from Dr. Bowen's trial testimony, page 307-308:

A: She said I had better go up and see. I went directly through the dining room and the corner of the sitting room into the front hall, up the stairs - front stairs - and stopped a moment at the door of the front chamber - guest chamber, front bedroom. At that point I looked over the bed and saw the prostrate form of Mrs. Borden.

Q: Where were you standing, Doctor, when you saw the form of Mrs. Borden?

A: Directly in the door of the room.

Q: What did you do?

A: I went around the back of the bed - that is, the foot of the bed - and between the form and the bed, and placed my hand on her head. It was a little dark in the room, somewhat dark, not very light. I placed my hand on her head and found there were wounds in the head. Then I placed by - felt of her pulse - that is, felt of the wrist, and found she was dead.

******

Q: How did she then lie?
A: She lay directly on her face with her hands under her.
(Not sure if this was before or after Bowen touched her - Sherry)

******
This from Dr. Dolan's trial testimony:

Q: Where did you go then?
A: Upstairs.
Q: Where upstairs?
A: I went in to the room where the body of Mrs. Borden lay.
Q: Did you make any further observation of that at that time?
A: I did.
Q: Did you observe anything else than you have already testified to?
A: Simply that I counted the wounds, and lifted the body with Dr. Bowen's assistance, in order to get at the wounds more quickly. That is all.
(Not sure if this is his first look at Abby or not. I think it was when Dolan first arrived. - Sherry)
*****
Q: You went off?
A: (DOLAN) Yes, sir, but not until half past one.
Q: Did you return that day?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: What time did you get back to the house that day?
A: Somewhere between three and half past o'clock.
Q: Did you go into the house again?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Did you further examine the bodies of Mr. and Mrs. Borden?
A: Yes, sir, but I had the rooms photographed before anything was done with the bodies.

What did Dr. Bowen mean when he said he looked "over" the bed?

Morse, Trial, pg 139:

Q. After you saw Mr. Borden where did you go?
A. I went part ways up the front stairs.
Q. Won't you describe the journey up the front stairs and what you saw?
A. I went up far enough so I could look under the bed where I slept the night before, and I saw Mrs. Borden lying there with blood on her face.

_______

so at this point she is not lying face-down? and if turned, how so?

what strikes me here is his specific use of the word, "face."

***What did Dr. Bowen mean when he said he looked "over" the bed?***

i take it that he walked into the room and right up to the bed (facing dresser) and simply looked over to see the body from this angle before walking around to the foot of the body.

Haulover, from the pics we have of Abby, it looks as though her face is straight down on the floor, but, I think before that, her head was turned more to the right. I think the back right side of Abby's skull was up and exposed, the area that got hacked so much, her head would have had to have been at an angle and a portion of the right side of her face would have been visible. Morse isn't very specific about how much of her face he saw, it could have been only part of her face as he was there before the photographer and I don't think they wanted Abby completely moved from her position until he took his photos. It sounds to me as if they lifted her body slightly and her head and then would place her back down on the floor again.

Well, Eugene, you certainly found Morse saying Abby had blood on her face! I pasted from comparison testimony and left that out at the time because it was not pertinent to compare with the other testimony about whether Morse went in that room.
I don't think he could see Abby under the bed with blood on her face.
Is he messing with us again? I don't think there was enough light to see any detail from the stairs?

i've considered what susan suggests. i'm just not sure that a certain amount of the right side of her face -- seen from the stairs -- was a sufficient visual.

i think that morse's statement that he saw her face is convincing. he didn't have to say that -- didn't need to.

i can't explain morse. but i can't explain bowen either RE position of abby's body.

whoever said, "my god, her face is all smashed is" -- maybe that is when morse also sees her face. yes, it may have been practically impossible to make out abby's face from the stairs -- but what that indicates to me is that he must have been in the room and closer to it when she was turned over and he did indeed see it.

Susan, if Abby's head was turned to the right, the LEFT side of the back of her head would be more exposed, no?

I'm reading STIFF, by the way, an entertaining non-fiction book about corpses.

"i think that morse's statement that he saw her face is convincing. he didn't have to say that -- didn't need to."
Yes, that's what is getting to me. That Morse somehow somewhere sometime saw Abby's face bloody!
He said he went outside for several hours after that so I don't think he saw her face bloody just before autopsy. I wonder if he is mixing up his time, and visits to the room? That's what your pointing out that testimony says to me- and why I think he is messing with us- as usual!

Susan, if Abby's head was turned to the right, the LEFT side of the back of her head would be more exposed, no?

No. Sorry, Bob, maybe I wasn't clear with what I meant. If Abby's head was turned to the right, her face would be closer to the bed, the right side of her skull as well as part of the right backside would be exposed. Granted, Abby wasn't facing all the way right, the left side of her face was touching the floor, she was slightly facing to the right. Say this skull is Abby's head facing right, do you see what I mean? The right side and part of the back of the right side is exposed?

his memory is honestly jumbled -- or he does not want to admit having entered the room?

I don't know if he would see her face bloody if he was standing at the foot of the bed.
We can't see her face and we have the bed removed!
I guess we need a time line as to who first touched Abby and go from there.

This is a start on a "Authority" timeline- I had to adjust it fully by about 10 minutes! That was surprising because Doherty begins his account in the witness statements with the time of "11:35." But the sequence does not bear this out.
Dr. Bowen's arrival time is based on Mrs. Dr. Bowen and some of the timing I adjusted was due to her observation.
We can surely assume the cops wrote their notes up later and not *on the spot*, as it were.
[Based, so far, solely on The Witness Statements]-KK


c. 11:10 L. called Bridget (W.S. 3)
11:15 Call goes out to police (per Allen, W.S. 1)
c. 11:25 Dr. Bowen
“Dr. Bowen returned home and went to Mr. Borden’s at 11.25." (W.S. 10)
c. 11:30 Allen/Sawyer (W.S. 1) (Bowen was already there. Mrs. Dr. Bowen said Dr. Bowen went over at 11:25)
c. 11:40* Doherty/Wixon/Dr. Bowen*/Reporter & Mullaly Abby “face downward”
c. 11:40 Mullaly/Allen
*(“11.35 [Doherty] At this hour I, with Frank Wixon, entered the Borden house 92 Second street. *Dr. Bowen met me at the kitchen door...”) (W.S. 4)
[*Bowen’s telegram timed at 11:32, and he had to have time to return. T321]
“... I requested to see her; and on going up stairs found her lying on the floor, face downward, between the bed and dressing case..” (W.S. 4)
“. I requested the Doctor, Mr. Wixon and reporter to remain by the bodies until I notified the Marshal.” (W.S. 4)

c. 11:42 Mullaly & Doherty turn Abby over to see her face
“The Marshal gave him [Mullaly] orders to go right up to Mr. Borden’s house. He was there by twenty five minutes past eleven o’clock A. M. [Adjusted due to Bowen arriving, departing, sending telegram and returning] Just before we got there, Officer Doherty was ahead of us. When we went up stairs the Doctor said Mrs. Borden had fainted with fright. Officers Mullaly and Doherty turned her over. Officer Doherty said “My God her face is all smashed in.”- per Allen (W.S. 1)

c. 11:50 Fleet (Abby face downward) (W.S. 2)
“Went to the Borden house 92 Second Street at about between 11.45 and 12 M. Found Mr Borden dead on the lounge; head badly cut; Dr. Dolan standing over him. Went up stairs; found Mrs. Borden dead on the floor between the bed and dressing case; head badly smashed, face
downward.”

c. 12:00 p.m. Morse
“...and got to Mr. Borden’s house about or near twelve o’clock. (W.S. 3)

c. 12:17 Harrington
I arrived at the house about 12.15 or 12.20 M. The conversation with Lizzie was about five minutes later.

The more I think about this, the more Dr. Bowen's timetable doesn't work.
I don't think he could get over there, talk to Lizzie, view Andrew's body, send the ladies up to get sheets, cover Andrew, agree on the wording of a telegram and get out of there and to the telegram place by 11:30, in order to have it timed at 11:32.
Dr. Bowen must have gotten to the Borden's sooner?

At the inquest, Bowen says he's adjusted his time (presumably from his statement to the police)as a result of his driver telling him where he was when the clock struck -- and now says:

"By thinking it over sufficiently I think it was earlier than my first impression. My first impression was just an impression.
Q. What was your first impression?
A. Between 20 and 25 minutes.
Q. On further reflection?
A. On further reflection, and judging from what my boy told me where I was, and who we met at a certain time, I think it must have been quite a good deal earlier.
Q. About what time do you now think it was?
A. Not very far from ten minutes past eleven. It might have been five or ten minutes either way, when I drove up to the house and went in."

So at the inquest, it's earliest 11 and latest 11:20.

Then at the preliminary hearing, he said he calculated backward from the time he sent the telegram and feels he arrived somewhere between 10 and 20 minutes past 11.

But by the time trial rolls around he is unwilling to say any closer than "after 11 and before half past eleven". He is asked"
"You had no occasion at the time to note the time of day?
No, sir." (trial, 298)

I think he must have been there by at least 11:10 to view Andrew's body, get the ladies to bring him sheets, cover the body, commiserate with Lizzie, find out the address for the telegram etc. Even that appears to be cutting it fine.

Excellent analysis Kat. Don't forget also that Bowen said he went first to his house to check the RR schedule for times before sending the telegram.

Here's Bowen's testimony in the Prelim, page 400:

"Q. On the day of the tragedy, you received some information with reference to it, did you not?
A. Yes.
Q. Where were you then, when that came to you?
A. I was just driving up to my house from the south.
Q. From whom did this information come?
A. It came from my wife, and from a man named Thomas Bowles at the same time.
Q. Thomas Bowles is the one referred to as working in the stable near by there, or connected with the stable?
A. He works for Mrs. Churchill.
Q. Do you know what time it was then?
A. No Sir.
Q. Can you give me an idea about what time it was?
A. The only means I have of judging, is calculating backwards from the time that I sent a telegram.
Q. Such calculations as you seem fit to make enables you to say in round numbers it was about what time?
A. Somewhere between ten and twenty minutes past 11 in the morning."

That's not a very good way of calculating the time since Bowen was, self admittedly, in an agitated state that morning. On page 410 he's asked:

"Q. Is not it the fact that the spectacle of those two bodies dazed you for a while, so you had no adequate remembrance of what was going on?
A. It took me sometime, I must say, to straighten out my actions during the first half hour; it took me almost all the week to satisfy myself where I was."

At the trial (page 298+) he knows even less about times:

Q. Do you recall what time you returned to your house on the morning of Aug. 4th?
A. No, sir.
Q. Approximately, can you give us the time? If you cannot, I will not ask you to, sir.
A. I can tell within half an hour. That is as near as I can put it.
Q. Not nearer than half an hour?
A. No, sir, not nearer than half or quarter of an hour.
Q. I may assume it was after eleven and before twelve?
A. After eleven and before half past eleven.
Q. You had no occasion at the time to note the time of day?
A. No, sir."

And then the critical question (page 305)

Q. How long had you been at the Borden house at the time you went to the office?
A. I could not say, sir."


.

Looks like Diana and I were typing at the same time. Great minds and all that.

Thanks for the good help you guys.
(We can't figure out who did what to Abby's body until we get the time sequence approximately right).

I would have thought the doctor's wife would know to the minute when he arrived home but my confidence in Mrs. Dr. Bowen has dropped sharpley in this instance.
"11:25" indeed!

Do we think 11:10 can work for Bowen's arrival?
That's the ouitside time I've had for Bridget to be called down...

The latter timing works if the telegram time is right- the timing after Bowen's return.
What if Bowen mixed up the telegraph time?
In this day and age they'd call to the stand the person who took the order and the copy would be read aloud!

Kat @ Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:14 pm wrote:Do we think 11:10 can work for Bowen's arrival?
That's the ouitside time I've had for Bridget to be called down...

I've always liked Bridget nearer to 11:05. When Bowen got there he said only Mrs. Churchill and Lizzie were there. That means Bridget was out, probably on her way to Alice Russell's house. Then Bridget arrives back before Bowen leaves to send the telegram.

I think 11:10 is a reasonable time for Bowens's arrival at the house.

One more thing. We can be pretty certain he was still at the house at 11:20. Officer Allen says he got the word at 11:15 from Hilliard to go to the Borden house. Give Hilliard a minute to tell him and Allen says it was a 4 minute walk to the Borden house and that makes Allen arrive at 11:20. He says Dr. Bowen met him at the door.

He also says Andrew's body was not yet covered with the sheet and that Bowen told him that he had sent for it. That means he had already had his first talk with Lizzie and gave a quick examination of the body.

Yes, we're pinning a lot on that time of 11:32. At trial, Bowen testified:

Q. You have said that the time that you sent your telegram was eleven-thirty ---
A. Eleven thirty-two.
Q. How did you ascertain that time? Of your own memory?
A. No, sir: I went to the office with State Detective Seaver the first day of the investigation ---
Q. And what you ---

MR. ADAMS. Well, have you finished your answer?

MR. MOODY. I beg your pardon.

MR. ADAMS. You were asked how you ascertained the time.

THE WITNESS. I went to the telegraph office and got a copy of the telegram that I sent, at the examination in the station house, with State Detective Seaver.
Q. Well, you had then the time which they had at the telegraph office, the time of sending the message?
A. I had a copy of the telegram, yes, sir.
Q. Do you know whether that contained the time of sending the message from the telegraph station, or the time at which they received it from you?
A. The telegram was marked "11.32". I got a copy of it two or three days ago.Q. Well, that is all you know about it?
A. That is all I know about it, yes, sir.
Q. That telegram was marked "11.32"?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that is the only means you have of fixing the time as 11.32, is it?
A. Yes, sir, that is the only means." (trial, 330)

At the inquest Bowen is being questioned about the time of the telegraph and is asked:
"Q. Had you just as lief go with Mr. Seaver over there and get out that dispatch, and see if it marks the time?
A. Yes Sir."
So presumably he and Seaver went after Bowen was questioned at the inquest.

Bowen's reference to the "examination" is the inquest, right? And, he and Seaver went to the telegraph office together at that time to ascertain this time. And then two or three days before Bowen testified at trial, his memory was refreshed with a copy of the telegraph ... who gave him that copy, I wonder?

I've done a quick search ... but can't find Seaver being questioned about going to the telegraph office at trial.

But there seemed to be a copy of the telegram with that 11:32 stamp floating around at trial time, anyway.

Thanks for all the research, gang. Its maddening after all that that the time marked on the the copy of the telegram could be either the time it was received or the time it was sent. If it was the time sent, then that means that Bowen was there earlier which adds more stuff to get done in a less amount of time!

Revised timeline.
There is a gap at 11:23 to 11:40.
We left time for Bowen to return. Bowen was back when Doherty got there- gave that then the time of 11:40.

--Adding Dolan now at 11:45

10:55 Bridget goes to room - in room 10 minutes = 11:05
11:05 Bridget (W.S. 3)
11:10 Dr. Bowen (Inquest)
A. On further reflection, and judging from what my boy told me where I was, and who we met at a certain time, I think it must have been quite a good deal earlier.
Q. About what time do you now think it was?
A. Not very far from ten minutes past eleven. It might have been five or ten minutes either way, when I drove up to the house and went in."
11:15 Call goes out to police (per Allen, W.S. 1)
11:20 Allen/Sawyer (W.S. 1)
11:23 Allen leaves to go back to station- go find Mullaly “which I did in a few minutes”, brought M. to station. (W.S. 1)
*[11:25 Mullaly arrives (according to Allen) (W.S. 1) but “Doherty was ahead of us.”] Maybe 11:35 as Doherty claims?
*[11:35 Doherty/ Wixon (W.S. 4) & Dr. Bowen & Reporter & Mullaly]
(But Bowen’s telegram is timed 11:32) Maybe likely 11:40
c. 11:40 Doherty/Wixon/Dr. Bowen*/Reporter & Mullaly Abby “face downward”
*(“11.35 [Doherty] At this hour I, with Frank Wixon, entered the Borden house 92 Second street. *Dr. Bowen met me at the kitchen door...”) (W.S. 4)
[*Bowen’s telegram timed at 11:32, and he had to have time to return. T321]
“... I requested to see her; and on going up stairs found her lying on the floor, face downward, between the bed and dressing case..” (W.S. 4)
“. I requested the Doctor, Mr. Wixon and reporter to remain by the bodies until I notified the Marshal.” (W.S. 4)
c. 11:42 Mullaly & Doherty turn Abby over to see her face
“The Marshal gave him [Mullaly] orders to go right up to Mr. Borden’s house. He was there by twenty five minutes past eleven o’clock A. M. [Adjusted due to Bowen arriving, departing, sending telegram and returning] Just before we got there, Officer Doherty was ahead of us. When we went up stairs the Doctor said Mrs. Borden had fainted with fright. Officers Mullaly and Doherty turned her over. Officer Doherty said “My God her face is all smashed in.”- per Allen (W.S. 1)
11:45 Dolan arrives (Prelim. 88) Sees Andrew.
11:47 Dolan sees Abby (Prelim. 105)
c. 11:50 Fleet (Abby face downward) (W.S. 2)
“Went to the Borden house 92 Second Street at about between 11.45 and 12 M. Found Mr Borden dead on the lounge; head badly cut; Dr. Dolan standing over him. Went up stairs; found Mrs. Borden dead on the floor between the bed and dressing case; head badly smashed, face
downward.”
c. 12:00 p.m. Morse
“...and got to Mr. Borden’s house about or near twelve o’clock. (W.S. 3)
c. 12:17 Harrington
I arrived at the house about 12.15 or 12.20 M. The conversation with Lizzie was about five minutes later.

I added Dolan just now.
Also there is a 17 minute gap.
Any help here?
We can add the body's differing postures (by witness) once the timeline is explained.

I've looked high and low, Kat, I think you've got most of it. Heres all I could find.

12:03 Morse comes into house from under pear trees in the Borden backyard.

12:05-12:06 Morse goes upstairs enough to view Abby's body under the bed.

Morse doesn't state whether there was anyone in the room at the time though.

Thanks Susan!

Any one have an idea (with source) what was going on in the house between 11:23 and 11:40?

Sorry, Kat, I thought you meant the 17 minute gap between 12:00 and 12:17, I see what you mean now. There seems to have been other officers sent to the house by Hilliard that are not accounted for; Medley, Gillan, Wilson and others that he couldn't recall. From John Donnelly's Preliminary testimony, he states that he got to Borden house shortly after 12:00, was there about 15 minutes and went up in the barn. After he had looked around in the hay and came down he saw Officers Gillan and Chase there, it sounds as though they may have just arrived. I don't know if they had anything to do with the investigation or if they just stood guard that day?

Maybe there's a mistake made in that gap I have?

I'm supposing that Abby's body was poked and prodded by 12 noon to the extent that we are past caring, with that many on site officers.

Thanks for adding more Morse movements.

Could it be possible that there was just a gap in time because there was? No one was looking at or touching Abby's body for those 17 minutes or so because they were doing other things? Searching the house, the yard, questioning people, etc.?

Kat @ Mon Oct 11, 2004 11:20 pm wrote:Any one have an idea (with source) what was going on in the house between 11:23 and 11:40?

This doesn't help much. George Pettee testified (page 645, Trial):

"Q. At what time?
A. It was after eleven o'clock: I couldn't say exactly at what time.
Q. When you got there, who was there, Mr. Pettee?
A. I saw Mrs. Churchill and Bridget, Frank Wixon and Dr. Bowen. I may have seen others: I don't remember of others."

So if Wixon came 11:35 or 11:40 we know Pettee came after that.

On page 646, Pettee testifies:

"... I found Mrs. Borden lying in the northeast corner of the room: I should think that she lay on her face; that her head was within perhaps 18 inches of the wall; that she was nearly in the centre of the space between the bed and the dresser. ..."

Pettee's time of arrival is not as clear as it sounds though for he makes two interesting statements:

page 645+:
"Q. Had a crowd collected at that time?
A. No, sir.
Q. Outside or in the yard?
A. No, sir. There was nobody outside at all."
Q. Now, then, what did you do?
A. Well, I passed right into the room where Mr. Borden was. Dr. Bowen was in the act of covering him with a sheet when I went in. When he saw me approaching he took the sheet away and gave me an opportunity to look at him. After I had looked at him what time I thought was necessary, I stood back and he covered him up.

The "no crowd" statement would indicate he arrived earlier than an 11:40 time frame. And if Bowen was covering Andrew with the sheet that was very much earlier.

But if Dr. Bowen was giving everyone a peek Pettee may not be referring to when Bowen first covered Andrew.

Not to go off-topic, but if Pettee did arrive after 11:40 and saw no crowd it would supprt Morse's testimony of not seeing anything unusual.

in trying to place morse in the guest room, i noticed this in reporter john manning's testimony, trial, pg 1478. it's curious how it refers to pettee, and i'm not sure what to make of it.

______________________________

Q. What time should you judge it was, Mr. Manning, when you received your information.
A. Between 25 minutes and half past eleven.

[...]

Q. You are not to tell what he said.
A. I was not allowed to go in. I sat back on the steps; waited for some person to come with whom I could go in. I had been there two or three minutes, and Dr. Bowen came in. I bade him good morning. He passed in, and I wasn't allowed in with him. Shortly after he went in, officer Doherty came along. Mr. Wixon was with him. They passed in, and I went with them.

[...]

Q. Never mind: describe what you did, not what appeared?
A. I went up stairs with Officer Doherty. At that time I think Dr. Bowen said that Mrs. Borden was dead.

Q. Now wait a minute. You must not tell what anybody said: just tell what you did.
A. I went up stairs to a hallway that was dark, and went into a bed chamber, and Dr. Bowen went around the foot of the bed toward the body that was lying between a dressing case and the bed.
Q. Do you remember whether it was light or dark in the room, Mr. Manning?
A. My recollection is that it was not very light: I think that some of the wooden shutters in the room were closed.
Q. Did you see the position of the body?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Can you tell us what the position of the arms were relative to the body?
A. My recollection is that the right arm was about here (illustrating).
Q. Where was the left arm?
A. I don't recall, sir. That was on the inside, toward the dressing case, and I did not look very close.
Q. Were the arms stretched above the head at all?
A. I don't think they were: I don't recall that they were.
Q. After you had looked at the body what did you do then?
A. Dr. Bowen bent closer to the woman, and Officer Doherty said he thought he could probably see better if he pulled the bed out. He pulled the bed from the wall, and went around the head of the bed and leaned down over the woman, and remarked that he thought --

MR. ROBINSON. Leave out the remark.

MR. JENNINGS. You need not tell what was said by anybody.

The WITNESS. In consequence of what he saw the doctor bent more closely toward her, and at that time somebody else called some person who was in the room, and when this person went down stairs I went after him.

Q. Do you know who the person was?
A. I don't recall, but it is my impression it was Mr. Morse. I did not know him at the time. It was some elderly man with gray whiskers.
Q. Do you know whether or not it was Mr. Pettee?
A. I could not swear whether it was or was not.
Q. Mr. George Pettee--do you know him?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Would you say it was not he?
A. I could not say whether it was or was not.

_________________________

curious. i've looked for an indication of where someone called morse from upstairs but haven't found anything.

i've got an indefinite idea that abby was "turned over" several times and that the first one who did it was doherty before dolan arrived, and that morse saw this.

morse was there and inside the house before he ever went in the backyard for a pear?

That's good!
I think Manning is off on his times, tho. Mrs. Dr. Bowen said Dr. Bowen went there first at 25 past 11, but we found it didn't fit the timeline.
When Bowen was there the second time all those officers you named were there.
So this would be after Bowen's second visit that they were gathered at Abby's body and his telegram was 11:32.
We have him returning not much earlier than 11:40.
Shoot. I was hoping the reporter was better at keeping track of the clock!
Morse could arrive at 11:45 and still eat a pear outside and make it to this this scene, I think.
You know, if Morse left the Emery's at 11:20, he could easily arrive back at 11:45.
And, no crowd- as Harry pointed out?

From where do you think Morse was *called* upstairs? I don't remember that?

Good stuff Haulover & Kat. This is an interesting topic.

Another thing which Pettee said (trial, p646) which would indicate he may have been there earlier:

"Q. Now will you tell us anything that you observed with reference to Mr. Borden's body, or the blood upon it?
A. Well, I noticed the position that he laid in. He was lying on his right side, with the left side exposed. His feet was crossed, and one of them rested on the floor. I noticed the condition of his head,---the condition of the blood that came from it.
Q. Now, state that carefully, if you please, Mr. Pettee.
A. It seemed to me that the blood was quite fresh. I think that I could detect movement in the blood as it passed from his head down under his collar. I don't know that I could explain it any better than I have."

Masterton, and others, have said that blood generally coagulates within 15 minutes. If Pettee arrived after 11:40 how could Andrew's blood still be fresh and possibly still moving if he had been killed about 11:00?

As to Morse, his claim of finding the cellar door unlocked was always suspicious. If he had been in the house earlier could he not have left secretly by that door into the back yard? From the outside he would be unable to lock it again and he later used the excuse that he found it unlocked to cover his tracks. Then he could eat his pears and emerge from the back yard. Without looking into it, I don't remember anyone seeing Morse arrive.

On Morse's alibi regarding his return from the Emery's, Morse says what he saw, (the priests, the badge number, etc.) but does anyone say they saw him?

From the WITNESS STATEMENTS: "George Petty, No. 98 Second street. "Went in the house with Dr. Bowen on his second visit. Mr. Borden had the appearance of having been killed but a short while, for the blood was fresh and flowing. Went up stairs, got down on my knees to examine Mrs. Borden’s head. At once I saw she had ben dead sometime, and told the Doctor she must have been dead an hour. I further said, this is where the trouble began; this is the starting point. The blood had ceased to flow. It was dark, and covered with a kind of skin.” (Harrington and Doherty)

At trial Robinson quite properly objects as Moody attempts to get Pettee’s speculation as to how long Abby had been dead into evidence and the question is excluded.

Pettee had been a tenant on the upper floor at 92 Second Street in the 1860’s and still lived on the same street. He would have been very familiar with the principals. He said at trial that he knew Andrew virtually all his life -- and Bowen would know him too -- so that's probably how he gained easy admittance to the scene.

Time-wise – He testified as to seeing Bridget standing at the front of the house with her window-washing paraphenalia at around 10 a.m.

He tells the police in September of ’92 that he went in with Dr. Bowen on Bowen’s second visit -- which we've deduced had to be around 11:40 or later. But at trial, he claimed he heard the news at Wade’s store and went right up and into the house and Dr. Bowen was “in the act of covering [Andrew] with a sheet” when he went in. (I have visions of Seabury doing a bit of a magician act with the sheet – want to take a look, Addie? No? ... Anyone? Oh, George – check this out.)

Pettee says he left after examining Abby and went back to Wade’s store (2 doors away). As he got there, he heard the clock bell striking noon. (Trial 644+) So this makes his arrival at 11:40 -11:45 seem likely. He is quite definite at trial though, that when he arrived, "there was nobody outside at all" (645)

It's all very confusing -- because he claims Andrew's blood was fresh and he though he could see movement in it. I agree with Harry -- if he got there after 11:40 (as he must have, because Bowen shows him Abby's body, too) then why was Andrew's blood not coagulated? Most forensic info suggests it would be.

And what is the story on Morse's alibi? I know Mrs. Emery and her neighbor were questioned as to when he left there. But wasn't there something about another passenger on the car being interviewed and remembering the priests or something? Or is that just newspaper and unreliable author tidbits that are stirring my memory?

***curious. i've looked for an indication of where someone called morse from upstairs but haven't found anything. ***

my wording is unclear. i meant to say i imagined someone who was downstairs calling for morse who was in the guest room -- in trying to follow manning. caller was on the stairs, perhaps?

it's easier to imagine someone calling for dr. bowen or a policeman.

i wonder why manning would be so vague or uncertain about who he is talking about?

That is a strange little interjection into the trial isn't it? I agree that it sounds as though the person "calling" was downstairs or on the stairs. Manning seems to think they wanted Morse to come down and that was who Manning followed downstairs. I suppose it's possible, because Morse was only family member in the house outside of Lizzie, that someone thought he might be able to help with a search for something etc.?

But I don't understand why Jennings brings George Pettee into it at all? Is he trying to establish a time frame? Did Pettee tell him that he was in the room at the same time as Manning? Why did Jennings try to suggest to Manning that it was Pettee who was called downstairs?

Haulover @ Sun Oct 17, 2004 6:01 pm wrote:***curious. i've looked for an indication of where someone called morse from upstairs but haven't found anything. ***

my wording is unclear. i meant to say i imagined someone who was downstairs calling for morse who was in the guest room -- in trying to follow manning. caller was on the stairs, perhaps?

it's easier to imagine someone calling for dr. bowen or a policeman.

i wonder why manning would be so vague or uncertain about who he is talking about?

Yes it does seem to describe Morse, you're both right.
And it seems Fleet arrived around 11:50, and he named Morse as being one of the ones there including:
Off. Gillen, Manning, Sawyer, Bridget, Dolan, Bowen, Alice, Lizzie and Buck.
Fleet talked to Lizzie in her room and talked to Morse.
As stated, since he was the male relative he probably was nominally *in charge* of family matters and maybe Fleet called Morse out to speak to him?
Also, by this time, Fleet says there was *some crowd*.
(Prelim, 330)

When Sawyer finally made it upstairs from his post at the door they were just going to turn Abby over. That was when Mullaly went up.

Trial
Sawyer
436
Q. Who went up with you?
A. I went up with Mr. Mullaly, up there.

Q. Did you see any one up there?
A. I saw Mrs. Borden before I got up the stairs, lying so you could look under the bed and see her.

Q. About how far up the stairs were you when you got sight of Mrs. Borden's body?
A. Well, just as quick as I could look on a level.

Q. Had you been informed that something had happened to her?
A. The doctor said how he thought she was up there dead by the looks of things.

Q. Did he go up?
A. Yes, he went up.

Q. Well, what occurred after you went up?
A. Mr. Morse came up there. The doctor, and Mr. Mullaly, and Mr. Doherty and Mr. Wixon and me was up there.

Q. Was anything said by Dr. Bowen there?
A. Dr. Bowen? No, I think not. He was taking hold of her when I saw her to turn her over.

MR. ROBINSON. I object to that.

Q. Now, did you make any observation at that time of Mrs. Borden, as to the condition of her blood or anything of that sort?
A. No, sir.

Q. Where did you then go?
A. I went down and I met Mr. Morse at the head of the stairs right in the---entering the room.


-Hmm. Thanks you guys for the interpretation.
--We have Mullaly c. 11:42, yet Morse was there.

I thought I recalled that Morse was present during some search Thursday but apparently not. I word-searched his name in the Prelim and Trial. He does describe the cellar when asked- but he said he was outside all day Thursday (3 or 4 hours), that I remember.

It's odd that he didn't follow the police around.
It's almost as if he was more interested in what was going on outside in the yard and maybe listening to the talk, then watching police search the inside of the house or even staying with his niece in her room until Emma could come. I guess he had no nurturing bone in his body- and left that job to Rev. Buck. Odd.

From Morse's Trial testimony, he states that he was in the cellar while a search was going on:

Q. On Thursday afternoon didn't they search some?
A. They searched themselves; I was not with them.

Q. At any time did they search below stairs in the cellar when you were present?
A. Yes, sir.

I noticed something else odd in his testimony:

Q. Don't you remember there were some ladies there?
A. Well, I say there was Mrs. Churchill and Miss Russell. They were in the other room; they were not in there.

Q. Were they in the sitting room?
A. They were in the sitting room when I went in.

Q. Where Mr. Borden was lying on the sofa?
A. Yes, sir.

I don't recall either one of them saying that they had been in the sitting room that day, only Alice when she walked through the room to bring Lizzie upstairs?

Yes, it is odd that Morse didn't seem too particularly occupied with Lizzie that day, she had all kinds of strange men questioning her in her room. Dr. Bowen was with her part of the time, and I think Alice was with Lizzie until Emma got home. You'd think he'd be a little more concerned about her welfare.

So Morse is saying he wasn't present during a search Thursday, but he was present at one time. I thought he was present at some point, somewhere- thanks.

Can you give more of that next set of testimony? The more complete context? (and page?) That is odd...

i hope this is not redundant but don't want to miss this. this from Doherty, Prelim, pg 332. kat's above timeline has doherty arriving at house about 11:35? doherty says he heard of it at 28 min. till? so that's a fair estimate for arrival?

THEN after assessing situation and turning abby over and running downstreet for telephone:

Q. When did you first see Mr. Morse there?
A. I saw Mr. Morse in the room when I got back from the telephone, when I was looking at Mrs. Borden's body. He stood in the room with his hand on the foot of the bed.
Q. Looking at Mrs. Borden's body the second time?
A. Yes Sir.

i guess this fits with morse saying he got there near to 12? more or less?

but it does put morse in the room. that detail about his hand on the foot of the bed is a memory -- not made-up by doherty. doherty does not seem confused about the identity of morse.

correct me if i'm wrong: morse claims he did not enter the room.

now to move backward in time to bowen's first look. this from prelim. pg 404:

Q. Now I would like to have you describe the position of the hands and the body at that time, when you first saw it?
A. Mrs. Borden was lying on her face, squarely on her face, perfectly straight, so far as her legs were concerned, perfectly straight and square on her face, as near as I can remember. Her arms were folded or --
Q. Give an illustration with yours.
(Witness shows with his arms.)
Q. Pointing how, abreast, or below the line of the arm pits?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. One across the other?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Were they up like this over the head?
A. No Sir.
Q. Are you positive about that?
A. I am positive of that.

_______________________________

i thought at one time that dolan's description of arms sort of encircling head was prob. original position.

this bowen description more suits the photograph -- which was taken about 3 pm?

if both bowen and dolan are accurate, the puzzling question is how the arms were folded under to start with, then got sprawled above the head, and then GOT BACK under the body?

this is no new topic, by any means, of course.

one witness recently mentioned (manning?) saw the right arm out. so they pulled out her arms. who thought to put them back folded up under her (as originally found, according to bowen) for the photograph?

or is there a difference between what bowen describes here and the photograph? (in earlier discussions, i had been looking only at trial testimony about this as opposed to Prelim testimony.)

Can you give more of that next set of testimony? The more complete context? (and page?) That is odd...

Heres more from Morse's Trial testimony, page 154/i175:

Q. And then where did you go?
A. Went into the sitting room.

Q. The sitting room first?
A. Yes, sir. Well, I went into the kitchen and from there in; of course I had to go there.

Q. Yes, I understand. And after going into the sitting room did you go into the dining room?
A. Not at the time.

Q. Did you go upstairs before going into the dining room?
A. I went part way up.

Q. And did you go up stairs before you saw Miss Lizzie?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now when did you first see her, and where?
A. When I came down after I went part way up the stairs, she was sitting in the dining room on the lounge.

Q. Do you know who was there with her?
A. I don't think there was anyone; there was no one on the lounge with her.

Q. Don't you remember there were some ladies there?
A. Well, I say there was Mrs. Churchill and Miss Russell. They were in the other room; they were not in there.

Q. Were they in the sitting room?
A. They were in the sitting room when I went in.

Q. Where Mr. Borden was lying on the sofa?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you remain there then from that time on, at the house?
A. I was about the house and the yard all the afternoon.

Q. I think you said that there were, as you remembered it, two or three policemen there?
A. They were in the house.

Q. After you got in the house?
A. In the house.

Q. And you do not know who they were?
A. I do not, I was not acquainted with them at all.

Q. And in what part of the house were they?
A. They were in the sitting room.

Weird, hunh?

Thanks!
I think the man is either insane or a liar or soft-headed.
He never seems to say anything directly and he always obfuscates- I have a list going of his contradictions.


-----

I was just looking around and see Morse saying he arrived at the house at 11:40.
Actually, he says 10:40, which I LOVE, and then switches that to 11:40.
(Anyway, within our timeframe for him.)
Trial
151
Q. Now, caring nothing about the intermediate time, can you tell us about what hour you arrived on your return?
A. I think about twenty minutes to eleven.

Q. You don't mean eleven, do you?
A. Twelve.

Q. About twenty minutes of twelve?
A. Yes, sir.

Yes, I agree. And wasn't Morse's original story that when he first got in the house that he went straight to Lizzie's side and said his line about "My God, how did this happen?" And now he has it that he viewed the bodies first and then went to see Lizzie? I honestly don't think either lady went into the sitting room that day to stay: Mrs. Churchill, definitely not and Alice was just to walk Lizzie up to her room. What gives with ol' Morse anyway?

Alice didn't even know there was murder done to Andrew until Morse got there.

Morse was asked if he was hard-of-hearing.
If he was, that may have affected his mood and added confusion into how he viewed things.

Sorry to jump in so late with this, but it seems that the beginning of this particular chronology is now in conflict with other posted in the Crime Library on the website.

There, Lizzie calls Bridget at 11:10. Here's that's pushed back to 11:05.

And here you have Bowen arriving maybe five minutes later, and before the call has come in at the police station.

But after Bridget comes downstairs, she crosses to Bowen's and Bowen isn't home. She comes back. Lizzie sends her to fetch Miss Russell. Bridget leaves to fetch Alice. Mrs. Churchill spots Lizzie. She comes over. Lizzie tells her the news. Mrs. C. goes for help. She comes back. THEN, after all of this, Bowen arrives. Are we now thinking that all that running back and forth by Bridget and Mrs. Churchill took place between 11:05 and 11:10? And the time between Mrs. Churchill's return was five minutes or more before the phone call to the police station?

When Bowen says "Not very far from ten minutes past eleven. It might have been five or ten minutes either way, when I drove up to the house and went in," he's saying that he could has arrived as early as 11:00--BEFORE Lizzie called Bridget--or as late as 11:20, which certainly gives everyone else more time to go for help and return before Bowen arrives.