I can't figure out where to put this, so please move it

[rainbo]

Warning ahead of time, this will be a VERY LONG post and my very first one.

My 12 year old daughter was given two F's in her TAG (talented and gifted) class this week because she chose to write an outline and report on Lizzie Borden. I'm just going to copy and paste all the pertinent information.

First of all, here is the background on the story:

It's ok for kids in Alyssa's TAG (talented and gifted) class to do reports on Marilyn Monroe and OJ Simpson but Lizzie Borden is too violent? OJ Simpson slashed to death his wife and another person.....but was aquitted,. as was Lizzie Borden. Marilyn Monroe had an ongoing affair with the President of the US and also committed suicide! Kurt Cobain was also nixed by the teacher....why you ask? Because he committed suicide and abused drugs. What is the difference in him and Marilyn Monroe? I'm STEAMED beyond belief. Alyssa was given an F for not having her report completed because she was told just a day or so ago that her report topic was unacceptable. The teacher sent home something a few weeks ago asking topics WE (parents) felt were acceptable for our kids to do reports on. I suggested Lizzie Borden right off the bat because her story has always interested me, and I knew it would interest Alyssa, then current music artists, then the Bermuda Triangle. Alyssa chose from MY three suggestions. She had about 12 pages typed out and printed and then today, we learned that she received an F for not doing her report. I was baffled because I KNEW she had been working on it, so when she came home, I learned that it was because she had to change topics at the last minute and hasn't had time to complete her report. The teacher called Tony (husband) at work today and told him that she doesn't approve of the things that we allow Alyssa to do (watch world news due to violent content) and read. Alyssa (and my other two grown children when they were growing up) were allowed to watch and read whatever they chose to, as long as it wasn't pornographic. Anyway, the teacher also said that she "wants to read GOOD about Alyssa on the front page of the newspaper, not BAD things." WTF?

The Lizzie Borden topic was approved by the teacher, and then after "much tossing and turning in bed and many phone calls taken out of her own time", she came in and announced that she and the school board had decided that her topic of Lizzie Borden was inappropriate and that Alyssa would have to choose another topic. The teacher suggested rainbows or sound, but Alyssa nipped those two ideas in the bud real quick. Alyssa suggested some bands but the teacher wasn't keen on that idea due to lyrics in some instances and the fact that she didn't know the other artists. So, after two classes with this teacher, Alyssa finally settled on The Loch Ness Monster as her topic....even though she has very little interest in the Loch Ness Monster. She had planned to do the report on The Bermuda Triangle, but she changed her mind after realizing that she didn't understand some of the material, so she lost another day while switching topics, again. Alyssa was supposed to have completed her index cards by today but since she was in another class, she didn't know about the index cards and she received an F for not having that completed. She had all of her work completed for the Lizzie Borden report, though but she received an F for that as well because she didn't bother to show the completed report because the teacher had told her that Lizzie Borden was unacceptable.

So, I wrote to her teacher:

Mrs. T., I have a few questions that I'd like for you to answer by email so that I'll have the information readily available when I discuss this with my husband again this afternoon.

When were the report topics decided upon?

Was Lizzie Borden an approved topic initially?

When was Alyssa told that she could not do her report on Lizzie Borden?

Why is Lizzie Borden not an appropriate topic?

What are the other topics that are being done by students?

Did any other student have to change their report topic and if so, what were the topics and why were they inappropriate?

Alyssa received two F's for not having her report completed and for not having her index cards done? She had both done on Lizzie Borden, and as I understand it, Lizzie Borden was approved as a topic in the beginning. If Lizzie Borden was approved in the beginning, then it's not fair that Alyssa received bad marks because her topic was changed.

Lastly, did you announce in front of the class (after speaking with my husband on the phone) that Alyssa was going to be punished when she got home yesterday?

I'd appreciate answers to these questions and will then decide if we need to come in and meet with you.

Thanks, MHH


Her response to me:

My questions will be in bold. Her answers will be below. I wanted to get this in email so that I'd have the answers when I went to meet with Ms. Lamendola (the principal)


When were the report topics decided upon?
1. Originally we chose topics and I told several students that I did not have a good feeling about some of the choices. I emailed Ms. Lamendola and she agreed that I should require the research to be on people or things that made positive contributions to society. So, on the 24th, I gave them a guideline that the person or thing they studied had to have had a positive influence on society.


Was Lizzie Borden an approved topic initially?
2. I told Alyssa that I had a problem with her researching a murderer and that I would have to think about. That is when I contacted Ms. Lamendola and Judy McIntyre, head of the state gifted department, and both agreed that the students should choose positive figures to study.

When was Alyssa told that she could not do her report on Lizzie Borden?
3. On the 24th, several changed topics. I tried to help her by pulling out many topics, but she would not agree to any. By the end of the period she decided on the Bermuda Triangle. The next class she came and asked me to change to the Loch Ness Monster. I said fine and I even checked out a book for her later.

Why is Lizzie Borden not an appropriate topic?
4. Lizzie Borden is not an appropriate topic because she was an ax-murderer who made no positive contribution to society.

What are the other topics that are being done by students?
5. I am not at liberty to discuss other students with you.

Alyssa received two F's for not having her report completed and for not having her index cards done? She had both done on Lizzie Borden, and as I understand it, Lizzie Borden was approved as a topic in the beginning. If Lizzie Borden was approved in the beginning, then it's not fair that Alyssa received bad marks because her topic was changed.

6. Alyssa new from the beginning that I was having a difficult time dealing with a murderer for a topic, so that is when I contacted Ms. Lamendola and Ms. McIntyre.

7. Alyssa never showed me note cards nor an outline about Lizzie Borden; therefore I do not know what she completed.


Lastly, did you announce in front of the class (after speaking with my husband on the phone) that Alyssa was going to be punished when she got home yesterday?
8. After grading the outlines and note cards and speaking to your husband, I called Alyssa in my room along with the other 7th graders. I apologize for saying that your husband said he would deal with it when he got home. I may have said that she would be punished. I don't remember. If I did, I am sorry.


Did any other student have to change their report topic and if so, what were the topics and why were they inappropriate?
9. Yes, some other students had to change their topics, but I am not at liberty to discuss other children with you.

I hope I have answered your questions. I will be available at 1:00 to 1:15 tomorrow if you would like to talk to me. Please know that I care about Alyssa and only want what is best for her.

So, I wrote her back:

I will bold what Alyssa's teacher said to me today in an email.


Mrs. T,

First of all, you must have called the wrong number today because I was at home at 3:15, and we don't own an answering machine.

I have a few concerns that I'd like to address, and I'd also like to reply to some comments that you made. I guess my main problem is the fact that you had reservations about Alyssa's chosen topic from the beginning but you still allowed her to start working on the report. I feel that the focus of the report was not made clear to the students from the beginning and that is the origin of this particular problem. If you're unsure whether she (and other students) should be writing about a particular subject, then how can you expect them to know what is expected of them and when it is expected? They look to you for guidance and I feel that you should have decided ahead of time what you would deem appropriate and inappropriate and you should have made it clear from day one.

I also feel that you're ill informed about Lizzie Borden. I feel that you're not basing your opinion on the actual facts but rather the legend of the facts.

2. I told Alyssa that I had a problem with her researching a murderer and that I would have to think about. That is when I contacted Ms. Lamendola and Judy McIntyre, head of the state gifted department, and both agreed that the students should choose positive figures to study.

Alyssa's interest in Lizzie Borden is a natural and normal interest. I've been fascinated by this story for years and she has heard a lot about it from me. I've read a lot of articles, books and publications about Lizzie Borden and I feel that it's an appropriate topic for her.

Lizzie Borden was not a murderer. Lizzie Borden was a church going Sunday school teacher, and was found NOT guilty on all three charges in a little over an hour of deliberation. She was well known in town due to their affluent name and her sterling reputation. There have been many books authored on the facts of the story and the majority of the books claim that the finding of the jury in Lizzie's case was correct.

She was a recluse due to ostracism by the townspeople of Fall River, and she lived out the rest of her life in total seclusion. As she became the eccentric who was preoccupied with birds and squirrels and the welfare of animals in general, she became the seldom-seen legend who refused to leave Fall River.

At her death, Lizzie left her entire estate to charitable causes; predominately to animal care organizations.


3. On the 24th, several changed topics. I tried to help her by pulling out many topics, but she would not agree to any. By the end of the period she decided on the Bermuda Triangle. The next class she came and asked me to change to the Loch Ness Monster. I said fine and I even checked out a book for her later. Could you detail the positive contributions to society that can be attributed to these two?

4. Lizzie Borden is not an appropriate topic because she was an ax-murderer who made no positive contribution to society.

The idea that she didn't contribute anything positive to society is incorrect.

To clarify what I mean:

The murders inspired dramas, novels, poems, and, even a ballet and an opera. In 1995, Lizzie was the subject of an A & E Biography, and recently she was "tried" (and found innocent) in a mock trial on C-SPAN. Aside from her being a Sunday school teacher and a well respected lady in her time, she has been the topic of much historical debate, and social entertainment. She was presumed guilty, and found to be innocent. Her entire life was destroyed by the false belief that she was a murderess, but she continued on, she bravely stayed in a place where she was a social outcast. She persevered in the face of insurmountable obstacles and she's still the topic of conversations today. I'd say if nothing else, she left her mark in the world.

In addition, I'd like to address this part of the legend:

Lizzie Borden took an ax
and gave her mother 40 whacks
when she saw what she had done
she gave her father 41.

This entire diddy is incorrect. The weapon of choice was a hatchet, not an ax. The step mother had been struck 18 blows while the father had been struck 11 times, and most importantly, Lizzie Borden was found not guilty by jury of committing these crimes.


5. I am not at liberty to discuss other students with you. I actually didn't want to know what each student is doing, I'm simply asking what other topics are being written about or have been asked about. I hardly think it is a breech of confidentiality for any of the students if I know the topics of reports that are being done in a class where my daughter is also a student. Since you didn't tell me any of the topics, I can go on information given to me by Alyssa and respond to what I have been told. One student is doing a report/outline on OJ Simpson. Let me say a few things about that.

Simpson was a wife-abuser. On eight (8) occasions before Nicole Brown Simpson was brutally murdered, police had been called to the Simpson household to investigate charges of domestic violence, and the one time Simpson was arrested for domestic violence, he was convicted. Setting aside the fact that he was a professional football player, he is a convicted criminal. I don't know of any positive contributions he has made in society unless his football career is considered positive entertainment. Even if that's the case, the idea that he's a convicted criminal far over shadows the sporting career. He was also arrested for and convicted of flight from authorities when he was on the Santa Monica freeway fleeing arrest when he learned that he was the chief suspect in the double murders.

It's also possible that students are writing reports on Marilyn Monroe and Kurt Cobain/Nirvana. Monroe had an affair with the President of the United States and was a drug abuser that committed suicide. Same thing with Kurt Cobain, with the exception of the affair.


6. Alyssa new from the beginning that I was having a difficult time dealing with a murderer for a topic, so that is when I contacted Ms. Lamendola and Ms. McIntyre. Moot point. She was found not guilty of double murder, as was OJ Simpson.

7. Alyssa never showed me note cards nor an outline about Lizzie Borden; therefore I do not know what she completed. I was incorrect about the note cards. She had not completed them all. I apologize for that. Alyssa had pages of information that she had prepared and highlighted for her report. I guess showing anything to you about Lizzie Borden wasn't important when she had to change her topic. I'm pretty confident that she felt it was wasted work since it wasn't related to her new topic. I didn't ask her why she didn't show it to you because I didn't want her to feel like she had done anything wrong.

8. After grading the outlines and note cards and speaking to your husband, I called Alyssa in my room along with the other 7th graders. I apologize for saying that your husband said he would deal with it when he got home. I may have said that she would be punished. I don't remember. If I did, I am sorry. Thank you for the apology. Alyssa was pretty embarrassed about it and said that she nearly came to tears. I'm not accusing you of intentionally trying to embarrass her, but it happened and I wanted you to know about it.


There was some more stuff, but it wasn't really related to this topic, so I have omitted it.

Now, on to the last reply that I got from the teacher. I find it to be a very disrespectful dismissal that didn't address any of my concerns.

Sorry about the whole misunderstanding. Alyssa is doing great today.
She has already completed her first paragraph. She is a very good
writer. Sorry about your friend's death. I will give Alyssa another
Prior Notice letter. Hope to see you at her IEP meeting on October 15th
at 11:30. Ms. T.

[Kat]

Well, it's interesting to meet you!
My concerns while reading all this, you adressed in your response to the teacher. The one in particular was that the teacher's expectations of her student's assignment was not made clear until after the report was outlined and in the works.
Then, I can see where it would be confusing to have to change horses in midstream and maybe lose momentum.

You have a pretty good grasp of the subject yourself (except for the number of blows [Abby 19/ Andrew10] and Who Lizzie left her money to). I'm not even sure of that myself, but I know there were quite a few friends and servants and their families- with maybe
1/6 going to charity? This web-page from LizzieAndrewBorden.com has the Will you can download:
http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Resources ... uments.htm
The bulk of your argument on the case is sound.

I dont know why you wrote us here except to let off steam? It's better than taking up an "ax", hey? There must be a reason this happened. Maybe the teacher will learn something from this - about being clear from the beginning? And maybe you have educated one person as to Lizzie's acquittal?

One of our members mentioned to me today that there are famous Colleges and Universities around the nation who actually teach an accredited course on Lizzie Borden- which story doesn't just give an accounting of the person, but involves the research on the historical setting- time, place, people- and the interesting legal process as well.
Maybe your daughter is ahead of her time?

[Harry]

Hi Rainbo, welcome.

Sounds like this teacher lives in Mr. Rogers' neighborhood. Read only GOOD news? That is not reality.

I can only wish you luck. Personally I think I would have accumulated a large quantity of F's if I had been one of her students.

[rainbo]

Thank you for the welcome. :) I came here to vent. I figured someone here would understand my frustration at the teacher and her narrowminded view. I was just so ticked off at being dismissed like that. I had been researching various sites looking for accurate information about Lizzie Borden, and I just happened upon this one while looking. It looked like a nice, interesting place, so I decided to get a membership.

[Susan]

Hi Rainbo, welcome to the forum. It all sounds rather ridiculous to me too about having Lizzie as a subject and that your daughter should only write about nice things. I myself did my term paper in high school on Lizzie and got an A+. As Harry said, what fantasyland does this teacher live in, she needs to experience the real world, not run away from it!

[FairhavenGuy]

Hi rainbo,

This teacher should learn a little about our legal system. Lizzie was put on trial for murder, but she was found NOT GUILTY. (Okay, so not all of us think she was, but legally, at least, she was cleared.)

By the way, a few years back a high school near me, Old Rochester Regional, (Mattapoisett, Marion, Rochester, Massachusetts) put on a production of the musical Sweeney Todd.

[theebmonique]

Welcome to the forum rainbo.

As a teacher, I have wanted to use the Lizzie Borden case as I teach 7th & 8th grade science. Last year I got some real grief about wanting to show the Elizabeth Montgomery movie after spending time discussing the case. My principal pre-viewed the movie and agreed it was ok. The only part that was questionable to her was the part where she took off her clothes before the murders. But since it "didn't show anything", she apprpved it. I included pictures from the Borden house and Oak Grove Cemetery, but did not show the pictures of Andrew and Abby's bodies. I also had an assignement that dealt with what was fact/fiction, and how scientific method applied to the investigation of the crime. We discussed my view of the case and my experiences staying at the house two different times, the movie's suggestion, and other views as well. I would not show the Liz movie again. It may be ok for high school kids, but I am not sure my 7th & 8th graders were as ready for it as I thought. Most parents were supportive, but there were a couple who preferred to have their child do another assignment instead, and I obliged.

We still discuss the case in class, as it is something the kids find very interesting, but when it comes to movies, I let them do that on their own time. Occasionally, a student will find a book in a library about Lizzie and will tell me they thought the crime scene photo's were 'gross', or 'cool', or even 'weird'. I have even had a few parents ask me how to get to the lizzieandrewborden.com website.

I don't know if your daughter's teacher is new or not, but it sounds like her instructions were not clear. Sometimes as teachers, we think our instructions are perfectly clear, but they may not come across that way to students or parents. I encourage you to stay in contact with your daughters teacher. If one of my students parents had a concern such as yours, I would hope that they would come in and speak with me personally. Emailing your questions ahead of time is an excellent idea. I know that you, the teacher,and Alyssa wants what's best for Alyssa, and I hope that you are able to work things out.

Again...welcome to the forum.


Tracy...

[Nancie]

Hi Rainbo, what an interesting experience with
Alyssa's teacher, thanks for sharing. what state do
you live in? It seems so rigid. My son went to the
1992 conference with me and wrote a few "A" papers in both high school and college on the Lizzie
Borden case, I totally agree that it is no different from more modern cases (like OJ and Scott Peterson and so many others). You sound like a very good parent to stick up for your child's choice
of project. good luck to you both..

[Gary]

The excuse that the teacher cannot discuss other topics with you is specious. As long as she does not name the student she is free to give information about other topics that were either prohibited or acceptable.

If modern murderers were acceptble, than the whole theory of prohibiting you daughter from doing a historical crime collapses like a house of cards. Furthermore, the schools position is logically inconsistant. Under the circumstances I would demand before the School Board that the grades be withdrawn and that she be able to chose her own topic due to the fact that the teacher did not solidify the parameters of the subjects until after the students had begun their topics.

You will probably recognize the above as saying nicely that the teacher did not know what she was doing when she planned the assignment.

Gary

[theebmonique]

Rainbo,

This sounds like a case of a new and inexperienced teacher. I understand where that doesn't make it better for you daughter right now, but I hope that somehow out of what seems to be a nightmare that both you and your daughter are able to work things out with this teacher. Has anything come of the situation these past few days ? Were you able to work things out ?


Tracy...