Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Let me begin by saying that I think Abby probably died well before Andrew, based on the eyewitness and medical testimonies as well as other circumstances of the morning of August 4.

If I recall, even Arnold Brown, who basically created a completely new suspect out of whole cloth, sticks for the most part to the theory that Abby died before Andrew.

Given that they both died from cut wounds, not from poison. . .

Given that they both died between about 9:00 and 11:00 a.m. in their own home. . .

Given that Lizzie Borden and Bridget Sullivan, by their own admission, were at home the entire morning. . .

How does Abby dying closer to Andrew or after Andrew substantially change who the possible suspects might be?

Or is blowing apart the medical testimony just smoke and mirrors to try to obscure the fact that an inmate of the household, including John Morse if you wish, is still the prime suspect in this case?

As far as I can tell, the "usual suspects" list in and of itself might not change. Only the likely perp would change, based on a revised time window. Add or subtract John Morse, depending on which barrel of beans you buy as to "Who"...

I think in the end it may have all come down in a way to an old axiom: "If you can't argue the facts...argue the law!"

Good question, Chris. I too think that Abby died quite awhile before Andrew. But, I guess it comes down to the testimony you believe. According to Bridget, as Andrew was let in, she heard Lizzie laugh upstairs. Meaning that Lizzie could have been upstairs killing Abby shortly before Andrew got home, which doesn't change her as a suspect, or at least, a witness to the crime.

And shortly after that, Bridget was a witness to Lizzie's whereabouts. Lizzie stated that she didn't remember where Bridget was though they was apparently both in the dining room at one point, Bridget doing her windows and Lizzie setting up to iron her hankies.

But, once Andrew was murdered in that short span of time that Bridget went up to her room, I don't think Lizzie could have killed Andrew and then gone upstairs to the guest room to dispatch Abby too. I don't think there was enough time for that to happen then. So, if Abby was killed after Andrew, that would point to someone else doing the killing other than Lizzie. They would have had to been killing Abby as Lizzie was finding Andrew and giving the alarm to Bridget, which would also get her off the hook in turn so that she can run and get the people Lizzie asked for. Thats the only way I can see it possibly changing any of the suspects we have for the murders, Lizzie and Bridget couldn't have killed Abby after Andrew died.

You might have a point, Susan, but isn't there a Catch-22 regarding Lizzie's and Bridget's stories and the possibility one or the other is the murderer?

If you believe the sequence and timing they lay down, they seem to be off the hook, BUT if they were somehow involved with the killings, can we believe the sequence and timing was really as they say it was?

Yes, there totally is a Catch-22 situation there. I tend to believe that Bridget tells the truth, but at the same time, I also feel that she didn't tell all that she could that day. But, out of the two, Lizzie and Bridget, I tend to put more stock in what Bridget has to say.

If you don't believe in either of their testimony at all, then its back to square one. Thats the only reason I can think of for changing the timing of Abby's death, to possibly support a theory for a particular killer(s) while clearing other suspects. I too question the theory of Abby leaving the house with the mince pie, what new could possibly come of it to add to our sea of theories that are out there?

A longer gap between the murders might give room for speculation as to 2 murderers, as it seems inhuman to wait so long and build up that anger and/or hatred to kill again almost with the same ferosity.
A closer death time between the 2 would narrow the suspects to 1, that's about it, that I can see- and the person need not be quite so long in the house lurking, with the possibility of being seen or found out.