From reading through the posts, I get the sense that the majority think that Lizzie was guilty.
I just can't get my brain around her committing a premeditated ax murder without planning a better alibi, such as leaving the basement door unlocked.
I can believe that someone else did it (at least Mrs. Borden's murder) with Lizzie's knowledge, but who?
I'm really looking forward to the new book.
The Maddening Mystery of Lizzie
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goddessoftheclassroom
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xyjw
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I agree with you GOTC, but I accept that Lizzie comitted the murders with strong reluctance. That is why I guess I enjoy thinking about this case and joining in on The Borden Forum. I can't wait for the book, I hope someone does shed a new light on possible motive. I can never decide if these murders were an act of desperation or a rage killing. There is also the nagging question of other people's motives. Dr. Bowen's seeming to help cover up the crime by assisting with something at the stove has always intrigued me. Was it Andrew's new unnotarized will? Why did Lizzie come home early from her summer vacation? Well, I think you get the picture! Can't wait for the book.
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Kat
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Do you mean the upcoming FRHS book? They don't claim to dwell on the crime, do they?
I've recently- once again- have been going 'round and 'round in my brain trying to reconcile 2 weapons. 2 weapons usually denotes 2 killers.
By 2 weapons I mean- people think Lizzie poisoned Abbie and Andrew and that having failed, decided to chop them up with a hatchet.
I still cannot come to terms with these 2 different modus operandi. It's unusual, I think.
It always has me thinking she either poisoned or hatcheted, not both...
If the illness suffered in the house that Tuesday night was food-bourne, and not deliberate, maybe...but even then I am on the fence as to what she may have done herself.
I've recently- once again- have been going 'round and 'round in my brain trying to reconcile 2 weapons. 2 weapons usually denotes 2 killers.
By 2 weapons I mean- people think Lizzie poisoned Abbie and Andrew and that having failed, decided to chop them up with a hatchet.
I still cannot come to terms with these 2 different modus operandi. It's unusual, I think.
It always has me thinking she either poisoned or hatcheted, not both...
If the illness suffered in the house that Tuesday night was food-bourne, and not deliberate, maybe...but even then I am on the fence as to what she may have done herself.
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Fargo
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It seems that every time I consider a theory, just when it gets to a point where it seems practical, a problem comes up.
The Lizzie theory;
Yes, everything points to Lizzie, she must have done it. Wait a minute, if Lizzie did it why didn't she leave the house after killing Andrew ? especially since she knew that Bridget was having a rest upstairs.
It could have been awhile before Andrew was discovered and Lizzie could have left the doors unlocked and even open and then went Downtown to build an alibi.
The Abby discovers Lizzie and Bridget in bed theory;
Yes, t makes perfect sense. Lizzie and Bridget were in on it together, that's how it happened. Wait a minute, then why did they kill Andrew as well ?
The Emma theory;
Emma did it when she was supposed to be in Fairhaven, yes, the perfect crime with the perfect alibi. Lizzie was in on it of course because she was at home when it happened. Wait, why didn't Lizzie get out of there after the murders, instead of staying and making herself suspect #1 ? If somehow Lizzie was not in on it, why would Emma let Lizzie stay there and become a suspect ?
The Bridget theory;
Bridget was at home when it happened, she probably did it but then why?
What could her motive be ?
The John Morse theory;
Why I'll bet Uncle John did it. After all he arrived only the night before. His alibi was too good. Who remembers the number of the conductors cap on the streetcar he took ? But what did he have to gain by the murders ?
The Lizzie theory;
Yes, everything points to Lizzie, she must have done it. Wait a minute, if Lizzie did it why didn't she leave the house after killing Andrew ? especially since she knew that Bridget was having a rest upstairs.
It could have been awhile before Andrew was discovered and Lizzie could have left the doors unlocked and even open and then went Downtown to build an alibi.
The Abby discovers Lizzie and Bridget in bed theory;
Yes, t makes perfect sense. Lizzie and Bridget were in on it together, that's how it happened. Wait a minute, then why did they kill Andrew as well ?
The Emma theory;
Emma did it when she was supposed to be in Fairhaven, yes, the perfect crime with the perfect alibi. Lizzie was in on it of course because she was at home when it happened. Wait, why didn't Lizzie get out of there after the murders, instead of staying and making herself suspect #1 ? If somehow Lizzie was not in on it, why would Emma let Lizzie stay there and become a suspect ?
The Bridget theory;
Bridget was at home when it happened, she probably did it but then why?
What could her motive be ?
The John Morse theory;
Why I'll bet Uncle John did it. After all he arrived only the night before. His alibi was too good. Who remembers the number of the conductors cap on the streetcar he took ? But what did he have to gain by the murders ?
What is a Picture, but the capture of a moment in time.
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snokkums
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I think that Lizzie thought that the police wouldn't be looking at her as a suspect, so she didn't worry about where she was or what she was doing. As for not leaving the house, there again, I don't think she though the police would be looking at her.
Suicide is painless It brings on many changes and I will take my leave when I please.
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Shelley
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I got the impression that the upcoming book, Parallel Lives is a sort of history of the city in 1890's parallelling Lizzie's life in the city and the times with photos of what the city had become etc.and details of who Lizzie was, -rather than any sort of solution or motive for Lizzie being the killer.
As far as two types of weapons- well, if Lizzie had attempted to use some sort of poison, and for one reason or another, it was unsuccessful (wrong dosage, too much was vomited up, etc,) and the killer could not acquire more lethal stuff (like Prussic Acid), and the victim goes to a doctor complaining of poisoning symptoms, - a panicked killer would indeed resort to what was at hand, and what was CERTAIN to accomplish the desired effect. A hatchet to the head will work every time- guaranteed.
As far as two types of weapons- well, if Lizzie had attempted to use some sort of poison, and for one reason or another, it was unsuccessful (wrong dosage, too much was vomited up, etc,) and the killer could not acquire more lethal stuff (like Prussic Acid), and the victim goes to a doctor complaining of poisoning symptoms, - a panicked killer would indeed resort to what was at hand, and what was CERTAIN to accomplish the desired effect. A hatchet to the head will work every time- guaranteed.
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goddessoftheclassroom
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mbhenty
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Yes, The new book by the FRHS will NOT deal with the actual crime or try to point fingers in any way. It does not name or give any hints to who did the murders.
If you read the Fall River Historical Society Web site, this is how they describe it. They tell you this.
It deals primarily with life, conduct and culture, in Fall River, and how Lizzie Borden fit into it.
The information included promises to shed a much brighter light on Lizzie Borden the citizen, daughter, friend and person.
Exposing more of the private Lizzie.
In doing so, this may influence the way you personally feel about the crime. This may be enough to sway you one way or the other-----
Either way, rumor has it that it will be difficult not to.
Allow me to Brag a bit........................
Living 3 blocks from the FRHS, chances are I will have a copy in my hand before you do.
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DJ
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I think Lizzie "lucked into" a modus operandi (means of murder) that may well have stood her in greater stead than if she had employed prussic acid, and that had been successful. As stated in many posts by others, poison was then deemed "the woman's method [means]" to murder, however chauvinistic that may sound 117 years later (though it would have been highly impractical for Lizzie to have employed a firearm, given the noise element, so that rules out that, if she had been determined to kill).
People today seem to have difficultly, still, wrapping their minds around the scenario that she could have so brutally wielded a hatchet. Surely, even more people at the time thought that an improbability.
Lizzie may well have been counting on such a perceived improbability.
*************************************************************
Back to the poison-- if Abby had dropped dead from a dose of prussic acid, Andrew would have been suspicious. If Abby and Andrew had both dropped dead, then Other People would have been suspicious. It was far from a perfect plan.
If food had gone bad, people would have wondered why Lizzie and Bridget didn't perish as well. Oh, they didn't eat the same food?
*Then, why didn't they? Hhhmmm.*
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I do wonder whether Elizabeth Johnston's letter-- or notes pertaining thereto-- are in the Jennings files. If Lizzie did indeed write her that she (Lizzie) had a very sharp hatchet at hand for chopping wood at Marion (as rumored), then that would more fully establish Lizzie's means (the availability of the weapon, that *it was on her mind*, and that she had the expressed capability of wielding it.
Whatever's in that letter-- and its contents were probably noted by Jennings-- is an extremely important CLEW in this case. Miss Johnston did not sit on her information the way that Alice Russell did-- Miss Johnston mentioned it almost immediately. It must have disturbed her.
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One of the burning mysteries of this case is-- what pushed Lizzie over the edge, if she's the culprit? She certainly seems to have been acting on a timetable, or deadline (so to speak), rather than thinking through repercussions, establishing a believable alibi, and generally casting the light of suspicion off her, without directly implicating someone else.
Was there a new will on the horizon?
Was Andrew planning to transfer his stock holdings to Abby, as perhaps suggested by the note found after her death, in one of her garment pockets?
Or, was there some other form of transaction afoot-- some business of Andrew's-- that had Lizzie in a tizzy? I return to Morse's stating that Andrew was contemplating giving Swansea property to the Old Ladies' Home. Perhaps Andrew was moving forward with that, and Lizzie wasn't going to stand for it.
Nevertheless, I tend to doubt this last and tend to believe that Abby was going to benefit, imminently, from one of Andrew's business transactions. If he were planning to put stocks in her name, and Lizzie caught wind of it, perhaps she decided to put a stop to it, and perhaps she had to do so quickly.
************************************************************
As for cleaning up-- Abby's murder would have served as "the dry run," and Lizzie would have known more of what to expect, re blood splattering, with Andrew.
There was plenty of time for clean-up after Abby's murder.
Later, she could have protected herself with Andrew's coat (or one of Abby's much-larger dresses, retrieved from down cellar), and by ducking behind the doorway to avoid any "gushers." ("And then she stood behind the door, and gave her Father forty more.")
If Lizzie knew how to chop wood with a hatchet, then she would have had an added advantage.
People today seem to have difficultly, still, wrapping their minds around the scenario that she could have so brutally wielded a hatchet. Surely, even more people at the time thought that an improbability.
Lizzie may well have been counting on such a perceived improbability.
*************************************************************
Back to the poison-- if Abby had dropped dead from a dose of prussic acid, Andrew would have been suspicious. If Abby and Andrew had both dropped dead, then Other People would have been suspicious. It was far from a perfect plan.
If food had gone bad, people would have wondered why Lizzie and Bridget didn't perish as well. Oh, they didn't eat the same food?
*Then, why didn't they? Hhhmmm.*
*************************************************************
I do wonder whether Elizabeth Johnston's letter-- or notes pertaining thereto-- are in the Jennings files. If Lizzie did indeed write her that she (Lizzie) had a very sharp hatchet at hand for chopping wood at Marion (as rumored), then that would more fully establish Lizzie's means (the availability of the weapon, that *it was on her mind*, and that she had the expressed capability of wielding it.
Whatever's in that letter-- and its contents were probably noted by Jennings-- is an extremely important CLEW in this case. Miss Johnston did not sit on her information the way that Alice Russell did-- Miss Johnston mentioned it almost immediately. It must have disturbed her.
*************************************************************
One of the burning mysteries of this case is-- what pushed Lizzie over the edge, if she's the culprit? She certainly seems to have been acting on a timetable, or deadline (so to speak), rather than thinking through repercussions, establishing a believable alibi, and generally casting the light of suspicion off her, without directly implicating someone else.
Was there a new will on the horizon?
Was Andrew planning to transfer his stock holdings to Abby, as perhaps suggested by the note found after her death, in one of her garment pockets?
Or, was there some other form of transaction afoot-- some business of Andrew's-- that had Lizzie in a tizzy? I return to Morse's stating that Andrew was contemplating giving Swansea property to the Old Ladies' Home. Perhaps Andrew was moving forward with that, and Lizzie wasn't going to stand for it.
Nevertheless, I tend to doubt this last and tend to believe that Abby was going to benefit, imminently, from one of Andrew's business transactions. If he were planning to put stocks in her name, and Lizzie caught wind of it, perhaps she decided to put a stop to it, and perhaps she had to do so quickly.
************************************************************
As for cleaning up-- Abby's murder would have served as "the dry run," and Lizzie would have known more of what to expect, re blood splattering, with Andrew.
There was plenty of time for clean-up after Abby's murder.
Later, she could have protected herself with Andrew's coat (or one of Abby's much-larger dresses, retrieved from down cellar), and by ducking behind the doorway to avoid any "gushers." ("And then she stood behind the door, and gave her Father forty more.")
If Lizzie knew how to chop wood with a hatchet, then she would have had an added advantage.
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SarahJay
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Fargo:
The John Morse theory;
Why I'll bet Uncle John did it. After all he arrived only the night before. His alibi was too good. Who remembers the number of the conductors cap on the streetcar he took ? But what did he have to gain by the murders ?
Nice one fargo!
This is a question i often ask myself, often after i test my memory about the days tram ride i took to work, and how many buttons the tram driver had buttoned up on his jacket. (in case you're wondering, today he had 3 but one was missing :P) but i digress...
I have always considered Uncle Morse's alibi to be rather strange and almost implausible, and this got me to thinking about motive. I think he would have helped Lizzie and Emma no matter what they asked him. Hence i will always hold onto Lizzie being guilty of somethingPerhaps all he had to gain was protecting his sister's children, and maybe receive a little benefit for himself...
The strangest thing about Uncle Morse (and i consider there to be many) is the conversation he had with - now was it a policeman, or a doctor or a reporter?? -on the afternoon of the murders when he said that this reminded him of a murder that took place almost 20 years beforehand. A brutal murder, middle of the day, busy street and yet no one caught the murderer.
Yes, the man with the perfect alibi proves his incredible memory and talent for true crime history
Now im off to find that quote from Uncle Morse i know i have read somewhere...
The John Morse theory;
Why I'll bet Uncle John did it. After all he arrived only the night before. His alibi was too good. Who remembers the number of the conductors cap on the streetcar he took ? But what did he have to gain by the murders ?
Nice one fargo!
This is a question i often ask myself, often after i test my memory about the days tram ride i took to work, and how many buttons the tram driver had buttoned up on his jacket. (in case you're wondering, today he had 3 but one was missing :P) but i digress...
I have always considered Uncle Morse's alibi to be rather strange and almost implausible, and this got me to thinking about motive. I think he would have helped Lizzie and Emma no matter what they asked him. Hence i will always hold onto Lizzie being guilty of somethingPerhaps all he had to gain was protecting his sister's children, and maybe receive a little benefit for himself...
The strangest thing about Uncle Morse (and i consider there to be many) is the conversation he had with - now was it a policeman, or a doctor or a reporter?? -on the afternoon of the murders when he said that this reminded him of a murder that took place almost 20 years beforehand. A brutal murder, middle of the day, busy street and yet no one caught the murderer.
Yes, the man with the perfect alibi proves his incredible memory and talent for true crime history
Now im off to find that quote from Uncle Morse i know i have read somewhere...
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cfking
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After reading so many different perspectives I really have come to the conclusion that everyone is right at some point about what happened because I believe that several people knew. I think at least some members of the Morse family knew and probably encouraged it. Somehow I think perhaps they knew what Andrew was going to do and how he was making the daughters live and thought it an afront to Sarah's memory. Remember this is Victorian society and they would have looked upon Abby as a "lesser" wife being the second. And the fact that he was favoring her over the daughters would have caused a stir.
I don't know how anyone can deny Lizzie had something to do with it when you look at the following:
1. Tells people that someone might be trying to poison the parents. Tells people that she "has a feeling something bad is going to happen."
2. Trys to buy poison while saying these things to neighbors. (and we all know that she did try to buy the poison.)
3. Burns the dress. Come on People. She was not a stupid woman. She would have known that burning a dress would have been suspicious.
Those three facts are only the actions of a guilty person.
Now how she did it seems really simple to me.
She wore an undergarment or slip for Abby-washed off, cut it up in Rags (scissors would have been right there in the sewing machine) and put it in her menstruation bucket. Takes a couple Rags with her for the father. Puts his coat on backwards=does the deed-puts the coat under his head-wipes up with the rags-then they go in the bucket. Easy as pie.
Does anyone know if they ever photographed the prince albert coat? I would love to see it to see if their was blood "spatter" as well as the big spot where andrews head was resting.
Now please feel free to tear this theory apart-I love it! :)
I don't know how anyone can deny Lizzie had something to do with it when you look at the following:
1. Tells people that someone might be trying to poison the parents. Tells people that she "has a feeling something bad is going to happen."
2. Trys to buy poison while saying these things to neighbors. (and we all know that she did try to buy the poison.)
3. Burns the dress. Come on People. She was not a stupid woman. She would have known that burning a dress would have been suspicious.
Those three facts are only the actions of a guilty person.
Now how she did it seems really simple to me.
She wore an undergarment or slip for Abby-washed off, cut it up in Rags (scissors would have been right there in the sewing machine) and put it in her menstruation bucket. Takes a couple Rags with her for the father. Puts his coat on backwards=does the deed-puts the coat under his head-wipes up with the rags-then they go in the bucket. Easy as pie.
Does anyone know if they ever photographed the prince albert coat? I would love to see it to see if their was blood "spatter" as well as the big spot where andrews head was resting.
Now please feel free to tear this theory apart-I love it! :)
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Kat
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That's cool that you try to test your memory, SarahJay! I do too. The older I get the harder it is tho, even when I'm concentrating.
However, please let's all set to, and find the source of the old bug-a-boo that Morse could recite the streetcar conductor's badge number or hat number or whatever~ because guess what- it may be a myth.
I know of the *6 priests* that were seen on the car (from the newspapers) and that's the extent of Morse's alibi as far as can be sourced...
We have always tried to prove what facts we can here on this Forum, here's a good point for ya'll to tackle!
However, please let's all set to, and find the source of the old bug-a-boo that Morse could recite the streetcar conductor's badge number or hat number or whatever~ because guess what- it may be a myth.
I know of the *6 priests* that were seen on the car (from the newspapers) and that's the extent of Morse's alibi as far as can be sourced...
We have always tried to prove what facts we can here on this Forum, here's a good point for ya'll to tackle!
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Kat
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Harry
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As for Morse's return to the house. This is from the Fall River Evening News, August 5, 1892:
"... Mr. Morse's niece confirms this story and Mrs. Horace G. Kingsley, who resides on the first floor apartment, says that she saw Mr. Morse come to the house early in the forenoon, and that she heard the trouble he had at the door and saw him as he was going away. She was getting her dinner at the time and it was after 11 o'clock, though she did not notice the exact hour. The conductor of this car yesterday was a "spare," named Whittaker, and the News has been unable to find him to-day, as he would probably remember the circumstance of the six priests and Mr. Morse's riding with him. Mr. Morse's story has, however, been confirmed, so far as the priests being on a car is concerned, by Conductor Kennedy of the car going east, who says he passed the car with the priests on the hill by the Pocasset engine house, about where Mr. Morse took the car, and that he took its time and it was just 22 minutes after 11 o'clock. ..."
This information also appeared in the New Bedford Evening Standard of August 5 with the same wording.
Several authors refer to a badge number. Arnold Brown's book, p172, paperback edition has this:
"... Mr. Morse alighted from the west-bound Pleasant Street horsecar (he gave the car's number) driven by conductor (badge number given) at its arrival time (also given) at the corner of Second Street and proceeded up the hill to the first cross street..."
Kent has this, page 23:
"... Amazingly, he could trace his movements minute by minute and street by street, including the number of the trolley he had ridden and the number on the cap of the conductor who had driven it. His remembrances would suit a casebook on alibis. ..."
Neither author cites a source.
The Boston Globe of August 10 reported it slightly different:
"... No one has been discovered who remembers seeing him on the car, but he claims there were three priests on the same car with him. ..."
The Fall River Globe of August 11 also says 3 priests.
So like most things in this case nothing is ever sure.
"... Mr. Morse's niece confirms this story and Mrs. Horace G. Kingsley, who resides on the first floor apartment, says that she saw Mr. Morse come to the house early in the forenoon, and that she heard the trouble he had at the door and saw him as he was going away. She was getting her dinner at the time and it was after 11 o'clock, though she did not notice the exact hour. The conductor of this car yesterday was a "spare," named Whittaker, and the News has been unable to find him to-day, as he would probably remember the circumstance of the six priests and Mr. Morse's riding with him. Mr. Morse's story has, however, been confirmed, so far as the priests being on a car is concerned, by Conductor Kennedy of the car going east, who says he passed the car with the priests on the hill by the Pocasset engine house, about where Mr. Morse took the car, and that he took its time and it was just 22 minutes after 11 o'clock. ..."
This information also appeared in the New Bedford Evening Standard of August 5 with the same wording.
Several authors refer to a badge number. Arnold Brown's book, p172, paperback edition has this:
"... Mr. Morse alighted from the west-bound Pleasant Street horsecar (he gave the car's number) driven by conductor (badge number given) at its arrival time (also given) at the corner of Second Street and proceeded up the hill to the first cross street..."
Kent has this, page 23:
"... Amazingly, he could trace his movements minute by minute and street by street, including the number of the trolley he had ridden and the number on the cap of the conductor who had driven it. His remembrances would suit a casebook on alibis. ..."
Neither author cites a source.
The Boston Globe of August 10 reported it slightly different:
"... No one has been discovered who remembers seeing him on the car, but he claims there were three priests on the same car with him. ..."
The Fall River Globe of August 11 also says 3 priests.
So like most things in this case nothing is ever sure.
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Kat
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Wow! Thanks Har! I didn't know there was a dueling version: 6 priests vs 3 priests! Morse wasn't asked in testimony- wonder how this got out?
So Brown was published 1991
And Kent was published 1992
Any author previous to Brown claiming the Morse alibi as conductor's cap or train number? I think there is?
So Brown was published 1991
And Kent was published 1992
Any author previous to Brown claiming the Morse alibi as conductor's cap or train number? I think there is?