Lizzie Borden Society Forum

I've been trying to figure out this floor plan:

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/crimescen ... orplan.jpg

It looks like there are two closets, one on each side of the front door.

When I look images of the front door as it appears today I can only see one closet at the foot of the stairs:

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Galleries ... 0Locks.jpg

Did such a closet exist at the time of the murders or is the floor plan in error?
Are there more accurate floor plans available?

I seem to remember that Andrew had a boiler and radiators installed in the house, which might explain the pipes visible in the photo, if they are hot water pipes to the radiators. If there was originally a closet on both sides of the front door, one might have been removed to facilitate installation of the pipes. The front door in the photo with the window lights on either side would probably have replaced the original front door if that was the case. The floor plan does not indicate windows on either side of the door.

The house was originally designed as a duplex, upper and lower. The idea of two separate closets for winter coats and such makes perfect sense in a common foyer.

Yes, Great observation KAE:

You know, I've looked at that illustration a hundred times and I never noticed that their was two closets at the front entrance.

Its an error by the illustrator.

I don't think anyone on the forum has ever pointed this out? (have they?)

There is no way there was a closet on the North side of the door in the foyer. The construction of the house is what it is. If there was another closet on that side, major surgery would have been done to the building to remove it, and that is just not so..

That would mean that the South wall of the living room was pushed south into the foyer, squeezing out the closet. There is no way.

Or that the door was moved to the right/north eliminating the closet. That was never done. The door is recessed. There is no way of moving it without major surgery.

And of course, there is no reason to have any of these architectural changes made, and indeed no such changes were ever made.

So, there you have it.

There is only one closet and there has always been just one closet.

The illustration is wrong.

It is confusing how such an error could be made?

mb is right, the exterior photos of the house indicate a rather large recess for the front door which would necessitate wall removal to accommodate the front door in the photograph. Now I have to wonder how deep the front closet is with respect to the recess. If the closet is relatively shallow, with a space between the back of the closet and the outside wall, and if there was access to that space from the upstairs closet, it might be a perfect place to stash a hatchet!

Yes, Yooper:

If there was indeed no side lights along the door, and if you squeeze the door south, towards the existing closet, you could certainly fit another closet on the opposite side.

But, this would mean that the entire outside alcove and entrance was much smaller. If you look at old photos you will discover that this is not so.

Also, this would mean that the Greek Revival door frame was much smaller, Greek columns were moved and were smaller, and the granite steps were replaced at one time. That the entire front entrance alcove was much smaller during the murders and expanded sometime later. This is not so.

If you study the photos below you will discover, nothing has changed.

When installing the heating system the closet, if it was there, would have been a very convenient place to run the pipes. (though when these systems were installed they liked running the pipes on the outside to help with heating.

And, did not Borden install the heating system?

Sorry Yooper, our posts must have crossed in time.

KAE's observation was a good one. I never really noticed the closet in the illustration.

In retrospect: It is unlikely that in a murder investigation that the illustrator would make such a mistake. There must be some reason for it.

I can not see him making such a mistake,

but then again, I am pretty sure nothing has been done to that front entrance of that building, in the way of major surgery, since 1892.

There does seem to be a difference between the recess indicated in the 1892 photos and the current one. I'm seeing about a three or four foot recess for the front door in the earlier photos and about a one to two foot recess in the current photos.

This is really a very good question!

I suppose the only way to know would be to somehow scale the distances from the photographs as a function of height. The width and depth would probably be more easily altered over time than the height of the entrance.

I was thinking that the illustration might be based on the original plans of the house, but didn't Andrew make changes to convert it into a single family home?

Yes:

As I have said countless times...........go to the source. The birth source. The first appearance. The "documented source". Not what a writer has written or included in his book.

Let us consider the source here. The famous illustration of the floor plans were taken from Edwin Porter's book. The second time they appeared, they did so in Edmund Pearson's book. Pearson states that he took them from Porter.

I have never read Porter. But, we must ask, where did Edwin Porter get the illustrations and are these the ones used in court?

I say they are not.

I submit that the illustration in Porter's book is not the actual one used in court or the actual one drawn by the engineer Thomas Kieran, and if so were later changed or corrected.

When Kieran testified, he did so extensively about the closet in the foyer and the possibility of a man being able to hide in it. In the testimony they studied all the possible angles and directions which the closet could be viewed.

In the testimony there is no talk about a second closet by the door. All the talk is about "One" closet. The closet by the front door.

Thus, I need to ask: WHERE DID PORTER GET HIS ILLUSTRATION AND FLOOR PLAN OF THE HOUSE? IS THIS THE ONE USED IN COURT? DID THOMAS KIERAN DRAW IT?

Yes:

but, no. The famous illustrations of the interior of the house at 92 Second Street were drawn up around the time, and most likely, directly after the murders. If you notice, that is why the only piece of furniture you see in the first floor drawing is of the sofa.

If you go to the sister illustration, the one of the second floor, you will discover that the only furnishings are the dresser and bed in the guest room. Mrs Borden's location of death is marked with a "#".

Also, in that drawing of the second floor, you will notice that it shows the door between Andrews bedroom and Lizzie's as not open, which means it is not in use.

The illustrations were done after the murders.

Yes:

and to conclude: I would say that the famous illustrations of the Borden house floor plans were not the ones used in court.

Who knows where Edwin Porter received them? (are there court records of the actual illustrations used in court on file?)

When your writing for profit, you improvise.


I also proclaim that "Writers" and "Writing" as being the second oldest profession in the world......right behind, you know what.

And, that is why I keep a red light in my front window.

Thanks for all the info.
Although I'm only about halfway though the inquest PDF, I decided to read Thomas Kieran's trial testimony. Yeah, I can't believe he did the illustration in question. No way.

I'd love to see his work.

I did find this, posted by Kat (near the bottom of the page):

viewtopic.php?t=165&start=0&postdays=0& ... floor+plan

This seems to be a more accurate rendering.
Thanks again Yooper and mbhenty!

When I looked at your second link to the current interior foyer photo, KAE, I recall there is a soffit-type area (is that a correct word for a false wall?) just inside the parlour by that wall nearest the front door. At least I think I recall asking Lee-Ann about that- it is a modification that hides the pipes I think?
Anyone?

BTW: The FRHS has the original Kieran floorplan of the first floor - that I do know- because I remember it shows Alice Russel's very own mark where she showed in court where Lizzie stood when the dress burning incident took place in the kitchen.