Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Perhaps we are looking at this thing all wrong! Let's say Lizzie got up that morning with the express purpose of hatcheting both Abby and Andrew that day. It would be much easier to do them one at a time. She gets Andrew out of the house to mail a letter, Bridget is outside washing windows (Perhaps Lizzie suggested that the windows were filthy), and now she has Abby to herself. The hatchet is stashed in her room, and all she has to do is lure Abby upstairs.

We have always labored under the assumpton that Abby was already upstairs, doing whatever little tasks she had to do. Maybe she wasn't! But if Lizzie was going to kill both of them, she could not very well murder Abby right there in the sitting room. Bridget would come in. Andrew would come in.

No, it had to be somewhere out of the way, to keep Abby hidden until she could get to Andrew. So she saunters up to her room, gets her hatchet, conceals it somewhere, then calls downstairs to Abby to come upstairs for a moment....with some excuse as to why she needs her to come up. Abby goes upstairs to see what's going on, and is ambushed by Lizzie. One down, one to go!

Now she needs an excuse for why Abby is nowhere around....ah ha...Abby got a note to go on a sick call! When Andrew returns, she feeds him the "sick call" line, he prepares to rest on the couch, and now Lizzie has her opportunity. However, there is the problem of Bridget. She COULD have sent her out to the market for something, but that would have been too obvious. She tempts her with the Sale at Sargents, but Bridget opts for a nap in her room....which works just as well. Now she has time to dispatch Andrew as well. Mission accomplished!

I seriously doubt Lizzie ever entertained the idea that the police would NOT believe her story of someone coming in and killing them! I really think she believed they would take her word for what happened.

The hatchet head in the box was probably the murder weapon, she probably burned the handle, and the dress she burned in the stove was probably what she wore to commit the murders. She may have tied a large handkerchief over her hair, to protect it from blood spatter, and put it in the slop bucket along with any other menstrual cloths she had soaking....or if they were large enough, a clean menstrual cloth would have protected her hair as well, and been right at home with the rest of the cloths soaking in the bucket.

Abby just happening to be upstairs was too convenient...too opportune.....I think Lizzie put a bit of planning in this. When all is said and done, the only person who had BOTH motive and the opportunity was Lizzie!

I tend to agree with you that it was premeditated, at least Abby's death. But what about Morse? What if he'd come back unexpectedly and wanted to take a nap like Andrew? Where does he fit in the scheme of things?Lizzie probably knew Abby had to be in the guest room at some point that morning to tidy up after him. And I too think she may have made a comment about the windows needing attention. I'm just not so sure about Andrew's death though. I think it was a crime of desperation and necessity after he returned home earlier than usual.

I thought about that, too. What if both men had come into the house together earlier than expected ? Maybe Lizzie had plans B through Z. She'd have wet her pants most likely if Uncle John beelined up the steps to the guestroom to retrieve some cufflinks, or something.

Here's something I haven't heard anyone bring up. Isn't it odd that Lizze was actually seen out by the barn per a witness sometime during the murders. I would assume that she would be in prox to the pear tree.
THEN when Uncle John Morse comes home-he casually wanders back by the pear tree and the barn to "eat" some pears.
That was odd behavior. I wonder if the murder weapon-perhaps the ax handle was back there somewhere and our dear Uncle retrieved it for us per a plan?? Hmmmm.

Well, nobody ever actually identified Lizzie in the yard. I assume you are refering to the Hyman Lubinsky statement that he saw a woman walking back to the house and that woman was not Bridget Sullivan because he knew Bridget and how she looked. I have always found Lubinsky's testimony shaky. His command of English was poor and he flip-flopped several times as to the time of day. The sight line between the tall Buffinton house of Mrs. Churchill and the barn (which was 10 ft closer to the Borden house than today, and the Borden house, all surrounded by shrubs and trees, is VERY narrow. I have serious doubts about Lubinsky. He would have had to have had a lot of luck to look up at the very second a figure was in that narrow jog.

It's also quite interesting that Hyman Lubinsky was later a tenant at 92 Second Street.

Hyman Lubinsky was a tenant of 92 second street? I never knew that.

Yes, quite true. Len Rebello dug up that nugget. #92 was a boarding house at the time.

I wanted to throw in that I kind of wonder about Victoria Lincoln's idea that Abby and Lizzie were beginning to get into it about the property transfer, and that Abby only told Bridget to wash the windows so that the maid wouldn't overhear family business.

I too have always wondered about why Abby sent Bridget outside when she knew she was unwell. Naturally servants enjoy eavesdropping and I have to wonder if something heated between Lizzie and Abby transpired to light the fuse of rage. I kind of thought maybe Abby had mentioned something about them all being sick and perhaps even poisoned and hinted darkly that Lizzie had a hand in it- which caused Lizzie to panic and take final measures to silence her for good.

cfking @ Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:28 am wrote:Here's something I haven't heard anyone bring up. Isn't it odd that Lizze was actually seen out by the barn per a witness sometime during the murders. I would assume that she would be in prox to the pear tree.
THEN when Uncle John Morse comes home-he casually wanders back by the pear tree and the barn to "eat" some pears.
That was odd behavior. I wonder if the murder weapon-perhaps the ax handle was back there somewhere and our dear Uncle retrieved it for us per a plan?? Hmmmm.

I had wondered along a similar line- that maybe the whole weapon was hidden in the tree - to be retrieved later. Uncle John might have gathered it while he loitered outside- but maybe later tho? as he spent a lot of time outside- good one!

Btw: The HH (what I call *the handle-less hachet*) handle was said to have been seen in the box in the cellar by Off. Mullaly, but Fleet denied he saw it when recalled to the stand at the Trial. The court sent reps to take a look for it- this was a year later they were sent- and they were not admitted to the house. (As if it was really still there- jeesh!)

Something that I also find interesting is the fact that there were several hatchets sitting in the bathroom in the basement. How many of you keep your tools in your bathroom?? I know it was in the basement-but I still find this an odd place for them considering they had a barn!
I thought maybe it was to wash them-but they had a spigot out in the barn-that's where Bridget retrieved water from!
I just think this is an odd thing. Thoughts?

cfking @ Fri Aug 07, 2009 7:29 am wrote:Something that I also find interesting is the fact that there were several hatchets sitting in the bathroom in the basement. How many of you keep your tools in your bathroom?? I know it was in the basement-but I still find this an odd place for them considering they had a barn!
I thought maybe it was to wash them-but they had a spigot out in the barn-that's where Bridget retrieved water from!
I just think this is an odd thing. Thoughts?

Where did you get the information the hatchets were kept in the "bathroom"? I don't know of any hatchet or axe found or kept in the cellar Privy.

This is from Asst. Chief Fleet's Trial testimony (p507):

"Q. And where were they taken from?
A. The two small hatchets were taken from the middle cellar on the south side.
Q. When you say middle cellar, I suppose you mean the middle room?
A. The middle room, yes, sir; the middle room of the cellar.
Q. The two small hatchets were taken from there?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where were the axes found?
A. I could not say just where, but in the back part of the cellar: I could not tell just where they were.
Q. The back part of that same room?
A. Of the cellar. I think one was near a chopping block and the other I could not state just where he did say he found it.
Q. Well, was the chopping block in that middle room?
A. It was in a passageway near the furnace."

Alfred Johnson, who worked on one of the Borden farms in Swansea had this to say in the Witness statements (p37):

"... Mr. Borden had two axes, a single hatchet, and a shop or bench hatchet. The bench hatchet has never been used much since it was sharpened. I ground it over here to the farm in the early Spring. The hatchet and axes were always kept in one place, in a box in the wood room at the left of the furnace. Never found them in any other place, and always put them back after using them, as Mr. Borden was particular about having one place for all tools."

Inquest Testimony of Officer Harrington on searching the basement:
"After this, went to the cellar of the house. On entering the washing room, lying on the floor were
two axes and one hatchet."

I suppose the privy & washroom are different places, but I still find this an odd place.

It was actually in Police Statements (pg. 7) My bad, sorry. I am new at this!! Always feel free to correct me if I have something wrong, that is how I am learning the nuisances of this case!

Heavens, don't feel bad. The best thing about this case is asking questions. I've been at it quite a few years and still asking them.

The Privy was on the north side of the cellar, the washroom on the southeast side.

I believe the hatchets referred to in the Witness statements were moved to the washroom and subsequently brought upstairs.

Thanks Harry!

Oh washroom did not refer to bathroom- it was literally where the wash was done and had a brick floor. The washroom is the easternmost room in that chopped up cellar! Actually it still is today used as the wash room. There is a chimney with a wash cauldron in it where a fire would be lighted beneath. Traces of the privy (bathroom) walls can still be seen if you look up at the ceiling-There is a thread here called The Cellar with many photos of all of this.