Lizzie Borden Society Forum

I just thought of something Lizzie said to Bridget. She told her to run and get Alice because she couldn't be alone in the house (after the murders). If she thought she was alone then why did she later say she thought she heard Abby come in earlier?

Good question, Ellen.

If it is true that she heard Abby come in, why didn't she call for her upon finding Andrew's body - why call for Bridget? How did she know Bridget wasn't dead as well? If Lizzie was not the killer, then how did she know she was alone in the house?

The plot thickens.

Excellent point, Angel! Apparently Lizzie knew a bit too much to be innocent of the crimes. A close examination of Lizzie's behavior immediately before and after Andrew's murder shows several inconsistencies. In my opinion, Lizzie knew where everyone in the house could be found, as well as their condition. I'll bet she knew exactly where the murderer was, too!

Yes, I too have wondered why, if Lizzie had heard Abby come in- why did she not fly to tell her what happened? I also never liked her comment about going to Oak Grove to see to arrangements (or implies words to that effect) when naturally Abby would have been the one. Good thing we were not on the jury.

Like Yooper said, "Lizzie knew too much to be innocent of the crimes." It sounds like Lizzie knew what had happened, who was dead, who was alive and where each person/body was. She didn't bother to run for Abby because she knew Abby was dead. She called for Bridget because she knew Bridget was alive. Lizzie knew she would be alone in the house when she sent Bridget for Alice because she knew Abby had not "come in earlier." Abby was already dead.

Just assuming Lizzie did the murders, she would have been smarter if she had run upstairs for Abby after finding Andrew, then upon finding Abby dead run for Bridget. Then upon finding Bridget both should have left the house not knowing if the killer was still inside. Or, upon finding Andrew dead she should have hollered for Bridget and then both left the house together, pronto! Or, Lizzie should have "paniced" and ran out of the house without calling for Bridget. Lizzie's willingness to remain inside the house after Bridget left tells me she was not afraid of a killer lurking inside either because Lizzie knew the killer was gone or Lizzie herself was the killer.

How people react after they commit a crime is often what hangs them.


-1bigsteve (o:

Seems she'd have at least gone to the barn, and kick around some sinkers, and scratch a few footprints into the dust. I'd have gone so far as to rub dust on my face, and drop some hay on the dress. "But I did go to the barn !" Maybe the barn alibi came late in her mind. There was no sign that she had been to the barn. That always convinced me that she lied, and, of course, calling the maid down. We all agree that we'd have zipped out of the house pronto after finding someone chopped up.
"Let's see, I wonder if Bridget will go out and spread the news. Yo ! Bridget, come down here."

Another subtlety present is the idea that Lizzie took charge of the household after discovering Andrew. This was done either with the knowledge of Abby's death, or in spite of the fact that Abby was alive and present within the house, according to the "I thought Abby had returned" pretense.

Lizzie says she did not say that.
And the timing of the supposed utterance is not quite right as posted

But, these discrepancies don't necessarily render the subsequent discussion/ argument invalid.
~ ~ ~

As for what Lizzie said about preparations for the dead, Alice Russell at the Trial says this exchange happened:
Q. Now was there some conversation there in consequence of which you left the room?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Will you state what that conversation was?
A. She said, "When it is necessary for an undertaker I want Winwood."

Q. What did you do?
A. I went down stairs and waited in the hall to see Dr. Bowen.

Q. And did you see him?
A. After waiting some time, I sent for him. He didn't come through there, and I sent for him and he came.

Q. After you had an interview with him where did you go?
A. Upstairs again.

Q. Did you go to her room?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did you see when you went to the room?
A. She was coming out of Miss Emma's room, tying the ribbons of a wrapper.

--It's possible you recalled a suggestion that took it one step further, Shell (mentioning Oak Grove), because it impresses us that that is when it seemed Lizzie had sent Alice away from the room and upon her return we find Lizzie in the wrapper- a change of clothes, and coming out of Emma's room.

Mrs. Churchill, Page 351, Trial:

Q. You may go on and state anything else that you think of which was said that morning or done that morning.
A. Miss Lizzie said to me that she should have to go to the cemetery, and I said, "Oh, no, the undertaker will attend to everything for you."

This may be the exchange Shelley was referring to.

That's it, Bro- thanks!

Good one Yooper! Yay!
You've also shown that this type of comment was mentioned to 2 witnesses, and I wasn't aware of that!
And the getting of Alice out of the room has always seemed important somehow.

How did Lizzie know that Bridget was not the killer? She apparently was convinced enough of it that she waited at the bottom of the stairs for her. How did she know she wouldn't be facing a hatchet-wielding Bridget?

I've often wondered that myself Yooper. I try to put myself in Lizzie's place and ask myself what I would of done. If Lizzie thought that the only other person in the house was Bridget, then why wouldn't she automaticaly assume that Bridget was the murderer? I know I would. Think about it......you leave the house and there is only 2 people in it....Father and Bridget.......when you come back in some 20 minutes later......one of them is dead....Father......so wouldn't it just seem logical that the other one.....Bridget.....must have killed him?

A very interesting study can be made of Lizzie's actions by considering what an innocent person should have known at the time and what Lizzie apparently knew. Look very carefully at the Abby's in/Abby's out element. See if you can find among the testimony and police notes an opportunity for Lizzie to have heard what she might have mistaken for Abby's return. She would have been mistaken because Abby had been lying dead in the guest room since about 9:30 am, so she didn't actually hear Abby doing anything. Keep in mind that Lizzie had told Andrew and Bridget that Abby was out shortly before Andrew's murder.

Consider what a guilty person in Lizzie's position would have needed to say and do. She needed to be unaware of Abby's death and not miss seeing her for a couple of hours or wonder where Abby was. She did not want Andrew searching the house for Abby. Bridget makes the distinction of Lizzie telling Andrew of a note "very slowly". Without nit-picking what was meant by "slowly", look at the larger message. In Bridget's experience with Lizzie's speech patterns, she was speaking in an unusually slow and perhaps pointed manner. Something on the order of choosing her words carefully. Why? Was she lying?

Some interesting points made here.

I was trying to imagine what I would do in her position, and at that point I suspect I wouldn't have given a thought to Abby at all. It would be all consumed with the shock of seeing my dad that way. I probably would've called for Bridget because she was the last person I talked to, and she was who I would have needed to send for help.

She didn't stay inside while she waited but stood at the door, right?

Changing into the wrapper seems to be strange, yet even in times of grief some people still have a need to look good or appropriate, so although it doesn't seem the normal thing to do it very well could have been an innocent act.

Yes Lizzie stayed inside the screen door at the bottom of the stairs. Mrs. Churchill saw her there and when she came over Lizzie was sitting on the back stair steps inside the hall.

Inquest
Mrs. Churchill
128

Q. What was the first thing you did?
A. I went into the house, stepped through to the kitchen, laid my parcels on a bench which runs right across one of the south windows that looks into Mr. Borden’s back yard. At the screen door, standing by the screen door I saw Lizzie as if she was in great distress.
Q. How did she show that?
A. Perhaps she rubbed her head. I knew something was wrong, of course, by the appearance. I opened one of the south windows, one had a screen in and the other did not, I says “what is the matter Lizzie?” She said “O, Mrs. Churchill, do come over, somebody has killed Father.” I went right through the house and went out the front door and went over. When I got there she sat on the second stair which is right at the right of the screen door as you come in, the back stairs.

Preliminary Hearing
Mrs. Churchill
271
Q. What happened when you got into the kitchen?
A. I looked out of the window, and saw Miss Lizzie standing by the screen door.

Q. Was the screen door then open?
A. No Sir.

Q. Was she standing outside the door, or inside of it?
A. Inside.

Q. Was there anything in her attitude that attracted your attention?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. What was it?
A. She looked as if she was distressed or frightened about something.

Q. What gave you that impression?
A. Why, she was leaning against the side of the door. I do not know but she put her hand to her head; and looked as if she was distressed.

Q. What did you do or say?
A. I opened one of the windows and said “Lizzie, what is the matter?”

Q. Go right on now,
A. She said “O, Mrs. Churchill, do come over; somebody has killed father.”

Q. Go right on, if you please.
A. I closed the window, and went directly through my house out the front door, and went over to her house, and opened the screen door, and went in. Then she sat on the second stair at the right of the screen door, the back stairs.

Q. The stairs, as I remember the plan, came down, the foot of the stairs is very near the back door?
A. Just as the right of the door as you go in.

Q. She was sitting then opposite where she had been standing?
A. Yes Sir.
-----------
The last time I visited the house, I was alone for quite a bit of time- and I made sure to sit quietly in that spot on the stairs, just to try to imagine Lizzie sitting there awaiting Mrs. Churchill.

I would have to try the same thing if I were able to be there. To imagine that moment while looking at the same floor and the wall. . . It would seem she had to be feeling kind of weak and most likely couldn't stand up much longer.

Thank you, Kat.