Lizzie Borden Society Forum

I hope this isn't too dumb, please keep in mind I'm a newbie I'm completely in the middle as to the identity of the murderer(s), therefore Lizzies guilt or innocence. But if Lizzie was guilty, I wonder if she really was in the barn eating pears while looking out the window as she says - she had already killed Mrs. Borden and was actually watching out the window towards the guest bedroom window? Perhaps thinking what she would do next or to make sure Bridget didn't find the body? At that time the barn was 15 feet from the house and off to the side. My apologies if this has already been discussed or makes no sense. It just seemed to be like some other crimes I've heard where the person returns to the scene of the crime or keeps watch over it to see what will happen.

Lizzie in the barn after Andrew was killed, do you mean? Eating pears. I find it interesting in an earlier resurrected topic here that the member said on the 4th they tried to eat 3 pears and it was hard! I had not thought of that.

Was Lizzie waiting for both bodies to be found?
It's possible. However, if Bridget was reclining in her attic room and knew nothing and heard nothing, Lizzie might have had to go back inside to call to Bridget, I suppose- if the deaths had to be noticed at a certain time, I guess? Why would they need to be found on a deadline? (pun intended.)

Hi Kat,
Thank you for indulging a newbie . This is just sheer idle speculation. No, actually what I meant was perhaps between murders - she wasn't actually expecting her Father to come home so early. You know how in trials you often hear about a murderer watching the scene for whatever sick reason? Additionally I've heard many of them also become intensely hungry, almost like an animal, certainly predators anyway, no matter how dramatic that sounds it's true. I'm not even sure of Lizzie's guilt but on the other hand I can picture her killing Mrs Borden then going to the barn either to put as much distance as possible between her and the scene while keeping an eye on it and deciding what to do next or waiting for her Father.
As a country girl: I HAVE been in a hayloft many times (for innocent reasons lol) and usually was barefoot or in socks. The hay is soft and pleasant to walk on and shoes would be slippery anyway. I can't imagine a female making a lot of footprints, esp on a hot dusty day. (Little to no humidity means less moisture in dirt to make a print.)
Pear trees - Seems like there were an awful lot of people around eating pears in addition to Lizzie. As a country girl I can understand that, too, fruit and nut trees draw people like magnets, even strangers will stop and make themselves at home. I doubt very much the pear trees had the same sized fruit as we'd see in our stores now. The pear trees on my Grandmother trees had small pears, I could easily eat 3 as a child. The last thing I'd do is leave cores in the hayloft where they'd attract mice. If nothing else I'd neatly wrap, tie, and carry them inside a hanky until I could dispose of them properly and yes, I'd automatically do that even if I was killing someone lol. Again thanks for indulging me, I'm just thinking out loud and appreciate you taking the time to reply.

Hi Summercodsuz. You had said "I can't imagine a female making a lot of footprints, esp on a hot dusty day. (Little to no humidity means less moisture in dirt to make a print.) " I was born and raised in Fall River and there are very few hot summer days in Fall River that AREN'T humid. To my understanding it wasn't even that HOT temperature wise that day but it was the HUMIDITY that made it stiffling.

Okay Steve S, thanks! I wasn't sure about the humidity level but I remembered reading a lot about "dust" so I assumed it hadn't rained lately or at least not enough to keep the dust level down. In Florida when we say dust it's always during drought periods, because otherwise everything and everyplace is sticky with humidity, even indoors.

Steve S. said >"To my understanding it wasn't even that HOT temperature wise that day but it was the HUMIDITY that made it stiffling."<

It was my understanding that it got up into the 100's that day, but it didn't?

Even with the heat, I think I'd have spent as much time outdoors chatting with Bridget as possible. Of course, I am not Lizzie, and this is hindsight. I may have chipped off some ice, and offered Bridget a cool drink of tea. It would have been beneficial to me for as many people as possible to see me skulking about in the yard. Mrs. Churchill had a young guest at her house. Were they in town when the deed took place ? Or at least during Mr. Borden's demise.

Everyone who was in Fall River on that day that mentioned the weather said it was very hot. It is not true that it was 100 degrees or over that day. Someone about 10-20 years ago looked thru the weather records for that day and discovered the high was I think 83 degrees. They did not record humidity back then. This is in one of theLizzie Borden Quarterlys.

Every time I've been to Fall River in the summer, it's been very humid. One of those towns that the sun just loves to bake.

Why didn't the cops ask Lizzie where the cores to her pears were? That may have settled the question on whether she ate the pears or not.

In The Witness Statements Lizzie says her father came home and he was reading the paper. She went out to the barn "for 20 minutes" at that time, she said. And she was looking out an upstairs barn window where she could not possibly see the back door of the house.

I don't know that Adelaide Churchill had a guest staying with her. Mrs. Churchill's house was next door to the Bordens, to the north.

On August 4, 1892 occupants of the house were: Mrs. Churchill, her mother, her sister, her son, her niece and a man who did work for them. I don't know if any were just visiting, or if all of them lived there at that time.

Mrs. Churchill's niece was writing a letter while sitting at the kitchen window from 10 am until 10:55 am. The windows of this house were 28 feet from the Borden's rear screen door. The windows looked over the Borden yard directly opposite.

During this critical time of the Borden murders, Mrs. Churchill's niece did not see anyone come or go to the Borden house. She did not testify at any of the hearings.
[Source: My manuscript, unpublished.

Thank you Augusta for posting the weather info. I haven't had the time yet to look it up and post so I appreciated you setting that straight. I was going to say that it was only like 83 that day off the top of my head but I am sure it was a typical very humid Fall River August day so YES it was HOT but NO it wasn't that dry 100 heat in Arizona when it comes to dusty.

The almanac I think said there had been rain earlier in the week?
Anyway, yes Lizzie at the barn loft window could see the side door to the house. She floored Knowlton with that one. He thougfht she placed herself where she could not see, but she set him straight!

Inquest
Lizzie
Q. I ask you why you should select that place, which was the only place which would put you out of sight of the house, to eat those three pears in?
A. I cannot tell you any reason.
Q. You observe that fact, do you not? You have put yourself in the only place perhaps, where it would be impossible for you to see a person going into the house?
A. Yes sir, I should have seen them from the front window.
Q. From anywhere in the yard?
A. No sir, not unless from the end of the barn.
Q. Ordinarily in the yard you could see them, and in the kitchen where you had been, you could have seen them?
A. I don't think I understand.
Q. When you were in the kitchen, you could see persons who came in at the back door?
A. Yes sir.
Q. When you were in the yard, unless you were around the corner of the house, you could see them come in at the back door?
77 (34)
A. No sir, not unless I was at the corner of the barn; the minute I turned I could not.
Q. What was there?
A. A little jog like, the walk turns.
Q. I ask you again to explain to me why you took those pears from the pear tree?
A. I did not take them from the pear tree.
Q. From the ground, wherever you took them from. I thank you for correcting me; going into the barn, going up stairs into the hottest place in the barn, in the rear of the barn, the hottest place, and there standing and eating those pears that morning?
A. I beg your pardon, I was not in the rear of the barn. I was in the other end of the barn that faced the street.
Q. Where you could see anybody coming into the house?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Did you not tell me you could not?
A. Before I went into the barn, at the jog on the outside.
Q. You now say when you were eating the pears, you could see the back door?
A. Yes sir.
Q. So nobody could come in at that time without your seeing them?
A. I don't see how they could.
Q. After you got through eating your pears you began your search?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Then you did not see into the house?
A. No sir, because the bench is at the other end.

Summercodsuz, I think you are right about the little pears. The current pears at the B&B are small. That is possible. Also, it is a creepy picture you describe of a murderess wantonly eating pears while gazing out the loft window upon the house where at least one body lay dead.

It's a fact in modern true crime, that there are instances of a killer keeping the body close- like the man who killed his girlfriend and buried her near where he worked! He could actually gaze at her grave across a field when he stepped outside of the warehouse!
As for being hungrey- that I don't know about- but some crime scenes show the killer stayed to eat. I don't know if that is common enough to remark upon, tho?

I could see Lizzie wrapping her pear cores up in something and taking them away with her, yes.

Thanks so much Kat! I feel validated and less embarassed now about my first post on the Lizzie case lol. Maybe I'll be brave enough to post something else soon. I'm still learning a lot of new things from reading the older posts and sources from the actual trial. Just when I think I have a grasp of it, I run into a whole other side.

There's something macabre and charming about Lizzie, having just dispatched Andrew, making sure she was spotless and venturing out to the barn, first making sure tio leave the screen door unlocked. She's oddly hungry after such a horrible deed, and picks up her pears (NOT from the tree, Mr. Knowlton!) and snacks away, hoping that maybe Maggie will come down and find Mr. B., and she'll be blamelessly outside - and Mrs. B. must've come back and been killed too! Oops, what do you mean that Abby's obviously been dead a while?

I don't think this is what happened but, then again, it may have been. I do think Lizzie was hoping to get out of the house before Andrew returned for "dinner," so she could sail back in and play innocent. Andrew's return and the invention of "the note" really mucked up Lizzie's plans.