Details, Details....

[Allen]

I have always thought that looking at the little seemingly insignificant details of the crime might help. That they might put us on the track of something bigger. Or give more insight into the cast of characters. There are so many little details in this case it's a little overwhelming. I don't know if anyone could ever fully explore all of them, but I've tried to look at many of them. For instance, what happened to the slop pail Lizzie brought down stairs that morning? Why did Andrew pick up that broken lock at the store? Why was he carrying tabacco in his pocket at the time of his death? Why did Lizzie pick up pears in the yard, when there was a basket of pears on the table that morning? Why did Lizzie seem to be avoiding uncle John? Was there a connection between Emma going out of town and the murders? Who was the friend that Bridget went to visit prior to the murders? Why did Andrew empty his slops outside when there was a privy in the barn, and a water closet in the house? What did he do in the barn that morning? Where did Abby hear the idea that baker's tea cakes had ever been poisoned?

I'm just wondering if anyone else has mulled over the little details, and what your take on them is. Or if anyone may have others they'd like to discuss.

[Yooper]

I've wondered about a couple of these examples, but certainly not all of them. Was there a medicinal use ascribed to tobacco at the time? Maybe Andrew thought tobacco juice might be a remedy for his illness.

Emma was the primary correspondent with Uncle John, maybe Lizzie tended to avoid him generally rather than specifically prior to the murders. If Lizzie was caught up in her social standing, perhaps a farmer Uncle was beneath her station. He might have been an embarrassment.

[Allen]

There were, in fact, many medicinal uses for tabacco at the time. One of them was it was thought to be an antidote for certain poisons. That it would counteract the effects.

Very interesting to point out it might have been Lizzie's custom to avoid Uncle John. I wonder if there are any instances we can point to of voluntary communication between the two? Where the situation didn't call for it in other words.

[Fargo]

For awhile I was going through the Prelimenary Hearing, looking at Bridget's testimoney to see if I could find something suspisious.

Like the part about the basement door being locked when andrew was putting up and taking down the clothes line. I thought this was unusual until I pasted it here and someone mentioned how it was done so that the line would last longer.

I figured that Andrew unlocked the barn that mourning so Bridget could get water from there for washing the windows.

[Societygirl1892]

I have wondered about those things.
Little details, but they could be important.
I've always wondered if the lock that Andrew Borden picked up that morning was ever located in the house. They make note of him picking it up so where did it go???

[patsy]

I wondered about that lock too, about whether it was brass or iron and also did he have an intention to sell it for scrap metal. Or maybe he just being a hoarder and he would have kept all pieces of odds and ends like that for some future use.

Then Kat had a recent post about another suspect or just a mystery regarding a Joseph Morse who was a handyman and may have worked for Andrew. Fixing a broken lock a possible task for Joseph?

[DJ]

Allen, you mention Andrew's slop pail. Bridget makes much of him pitching its contents all over the backyard in her Preliminary Hearing testimony. I don't think it's a clue necessarily, but it certainly bespeaks a disgusting habit, one that evidently riled Bridget to the point of her making note of it. He certainly could have flushed the contents down the toilet in the cellar. At the very least, there was the latrine at the barn.

One wonders, did he do that every morning? If so-- that backyard must have been pretty rank, particulary in the summer.

Warmed-over, warmed-over, warmed-over food and a fecund yard. No bath or shower, no gaslights. No horse, no buggy. Cramped living conditions. Not to excuse what Lizzie did (may have done), but one can certainly understand how she could have been pushed to the edge.

[nbcatlover]

Perhaps Andrew didn't want to stink up the cellar or the barn and thought the outdoors would freshen up faster.

[Nadzieja]

The thing that raised a red flag for me was that Uncle John upon seeing all those people in the yard just decided to walk around amidst the crowd.

If I went to my niece's home & there were all these people I would have marched right in and asked what was going on and questioned who & why all these people were there and for what purpose.

[Yooper]

We need to retain the context at the time. Morse had no reason to believe it was anything other than his brother-in-law's home, he didn't realize Andrew and Abby were dead. Maybe he thought he was intruding on something when he arrived, who knows? Maybe he thought Abby or Andrew killed Lizzie!

[Fargo]

The thing is as far as I know we only have Porter saying that it happened that way with Morse.

I am not saying I don't believe Porter, but if Morse acted so unusual I would like to hear it from another source.

In any case Morse must have known something was going on even if he didn't know what it was.

[Allen]

The lock has always bothered me. Where did it go? What was his purpose in picking it up? It seems he picked it up almost as an after thought, like a person does when they get an idea or remember something at the last minute.

Andrew emptying his slop pails in the yard has always left me scratching my head. He had two other perfectly good options. The privy which was made for that purpose, and the water closet which the rest of the family used. Where exactly did he pitch his wastes in the yard? Was it his customary habit to do this? And it can't help but make me wonder about those pears Lizzie and John picked up off the ground.

The living conditions that DJ mentioned, along with some other life style choices Andrew made, are what make me think that Lizzie was tired of waiting around to enjoy the finer things. Andrew allowed no luxuries in their household. No gas lights, no hot running water, no fine wardrobes, and walking or public transit as the prefered mode of travel. I think once Lizzie got a taste of Europe, coming home to Second Street seemed like prison.


John Morse's behavior after he returned to the house puzzles me. Maybe he believed the men standing around were there to do business with Andrew. Maybe there were misunderstandings in the witness testimony and the crowd was not as sizable as it was made out to be at the time of his return. Or maybe he was stalling for some reason. Since I lean towards his not having any part in the murders, I think it's some simple explanation.

Then there are the pears that Lizzie picked up to eat on her way to the barn. If she actually did make a quick trip to the barn, just to be seen and give weight to her alibi, she may have stopped to up pick up pears to give herself a chance to be seen. Andrew had brought in a whole basket of pears and left them on the table that morning. If she really wanted one, why not eat one of those?

There are so many little details that might add up to something more.

[Yooper]

I have difficulty with the idea that the living conditions were anyone's fault. Andrew chose to live the way he wanted. What exactly entitled Lizzie to better? What did she earn which enabled her to demand more? She was a leech with the Borden name and delusions of grandeur, nothing more.

[Allen]

Andrew chose to live the way he wanted. But it may have been below the the means in which Lizzie wanted to live whether she was entitled to it or not. I didn't think she was entitled to it, but she probably coveted it none the less. Andrew definitely didn't spend his money on any luxuries, which he could have afforded had he chose to. This is evident by Lizzie buying herself a new house with his money, and both girls living off of it the rest of thier life without ever lifting a finger to work. Andrew had every right to live the way he chose. But that also forced Lizzie to live in the same life style, which I think she resented.

[Yooper]

Lizzie could afford the delusions of grandeur as long as she chose to live with her father. If she chose to live on her own, within her own means, the bubble bursts.

[Nadzieja]

I'm sure her resentment increased when she returned from her trip to Europe. To enjoy all those luxuries then to return to her small home on Second St., must have been very frustrating. It wasn't custom for ladies with wealthy fathers to move out, just stay home until they were married. What could she do? I'm sure she didn't even think of working in one of the factories, she probably felt entitled to his money.

[Nadzieja]

Another thought just popped in my head. Not just wealthy people have that feeling of entitlement when it comes to inheritance. I don't know if you've all seen it but I have, when someone dies how many times do realtives pop out of the woodwork to see it their mentioned in a will. Haven't seen the person in years, but they want to be acknowledged in some way. It's rather sickening actually. So I'm sure the more money involved, the higher the interest.

[Allen]

What you said about the inheritance is so true Nadzieja. I've seen a little of that myself over the years. It's really kind of sad. A few times the person wasn't even deceased 24 hours and the family were already inside the house deciding who got what. No will so it's up to the family to fight over what is left behind.

I also agree that Lizzie probably believed her only chance to move out and live in her own home, aside from inheriting Andrew's money, was to be married. Which for whatever reason she never did. Often the children did stay at home until they were married.

I was looking over witness statements and testimony. I thought someone had testified they believed John's actions were a little off that morning. But I haven't been able to find any reference to it yet.

I haven't found any references to the broken lock being found inside the house after the murders either. Does anyone else know any information on what became of it?

Or what became of the parcel Bridget saw him carry into the house that morning? She claimed it was "the same as a paper or a book." But what was it? And what became of it?

[Harry]

Yes, that mysterious lock, The only author that states it's fate was Lincoln. Page 127:

"....it is well to mention here that the broken lock that Andrew had picked up from Mr. Clegg's floor and dropped in his pocket was found on the mantel. It had been rolled in an unaddressed white mailing wrapper like those that lay in a stack, the top few addressed to Andrew, on a small table in the sitting room. It was a strange way for Andrew to have wrapped a lock, a long roll that could almost have been taken, at first glance, for a roll of documents. Yet, despite the prosecution's attempt---by way of Bridget's evidence---to cast doubt on the notion that what Andrew brought home in his hand was really the lock, I have never seen it doubted by later writers. Even those most convinced of Lizzie's guilt have accepted it for just that, up to this day."

There is no confirmation of this that I am aware of.

Another possible explanation is that Andrew put it in the barn. Because Mrs. Kelly saw Andrew come around the house from the side where the back door was it is assumed he tried the side door. Well the barn is also on that side. He could just as easily stopped there and left the lock. Or he could have done both.

She also says on page 122 which lends some credibility for the lock in the barn:

"Just inside the door, along with an old vise and some yard and carpentry tools, was a smallish wooden box of assorted scrap, bits of broken metal, door knobs, old locks, a folded sheet of lead. Steep ladder-like steps without rails ran up to the hayloft."

[Fargo]

It might depend on how well organized Andrew was, if he was the kind of person who has a place for everything and everything in its place then the place where he kept his old locks could have been his first stop once arriving home.

This brings to mind another thought, if Andrew put the lock in the barn after he came home did he even try the side door at all ?

I think that everyone thinks he did because he came from the side of the house. Andrew would have seen the inside door open and the outside screen door closed. He might have guessed that it was probably latched from the inside but did he try it ? I would think he did if he were that close to the door after coming from the barn.

[kssunflower]

With Andrew's frugal nature, it wouldn't be hard to believe that he'd pick up a broken lock. If it could be repaired, I'm sure he'd find a use for it.

[DJ]

Not to belabor personal hygiene, but I firmly believe one of the most telling bits of evidence was that bucket of Lizzie's "to be washed" pads.
(I can't remember where, maybe in the Witness Statements, maybe in the P.H. testimony, but one of the officers referring to them as "little towels.")

I know Lincoln states that Lizzie was in the midst of her period, but that is Lizzie's word, via Dr. Bowen, whom I'm sure would have accepted what Lizzie told him.

Bridget, in the Witness Statements, seems rather surprised that the bucket it there, that she had done the wash on Tuesday.

Now, if Bridget were accustomed to the timing and duration of Lizzie's periods via the washing, she would have had a better grasp on the truth.

I believe that this is the bit of evidence that clued Bridget firmly into the fact that Lizzie was lying: That Bridget knew that Lizzie was done with her period.

If Lizzie used those pads to "sponge bath" herself after killing Abby, it was one of her brighter moves. No man-- not even the police-- would want "to go there," particularly during that time.

Also, if anyone found any blood on Lizzie's garments, she could claim "the fleas," which is precisely what she did.

[Aamartin]

The thing that raised a red flag for me was that Uncle John upon seeing all those people in the yard just decided to walk around amidst the crowd.

If I went to my niece's home & there were all these people I would have marched right in and asked what was going on and questioned who & why all these people were there and for what purpose.

It does seem odd-- unless he expected there to be something going on......

[Harry]

A detail that is troublesome to me is the question whether the barn door even had a lock.

From the trial testimonies of "Brownie and me" they found the barn door secured with just a hasp and pin. They were one of the first, if not the first, to enter the barn after Lizzie's alleged visit. If they were the first that means Lizzie set the pin and hasp.

I would assume (a bad thing to do!) that Bridget would have secured the barn door after she finished the outside windows and didn't need any more water from the barn.

Then Lizzie, the next to enter the barn, would have had to "unlock" it to go in.

All this leads me to believe the barn door was secured by just a hasp and pin. Maybe Andrew wanted to repair that broken lock to replace the pin in the hasp.

[mbhenty]

Yes, Aamartin. Right you are. I have posted about this before. Mr. Morse could not spend the time he did in that house without knowing the inner-works of family secrets.

The fact that he just walked into the back yard, pretty much ignoring what was going around him, was somewhat proof that he guessed something big had happened.

This being his deduction, he probably was in fear or confusion about what to do. Especially if he had tons of circumstantial evidence stored in his brain.

Oh, yes, WELCOME to the LAB forum. Not sure if you have been following this site before you joined, but there's no better place for a student of the Borden murders to brush up on and practice his/her expertise on the crime.

[DJ]

Yes, welcome Aamartin!

Agreement on Unka John and spotting the crowd. Bad fib on his part. Sullivan was already at the side door to keep people out.

Here's another apparent fib, one he sticks with from Inquest through Trial testimony:

Saying that Bridget received the order to wash windows during breakfast.

Bridget is very clear, in her Preliminary Hearing testimony, about NOT being summoned during the breakfast of Mr. and Mrs. Borden and Mr. Morse.

Furthermore, she is explicit about the window-washing order coming a good bit after breakfast, AFTER Mr. Morse had already left.

So, what's the deal? To put it nicely, JVM may just have been protecting Lizzie, in the sense that he didn't want anyone to believe that Lizzie had given the order, so that she could have cleared Bridget out of the house by so doing.

Another thing about JVM that sticks in my mind is his carrying that letter from Mr. Borden, what I call the "Come down when you can and look at the cows" letter, which he whips out of his dreaded coat at the Inquest.
(By the by, this letter blows Lincoln's property-transfer scenario to smithereens-- although I still think her book is worthwhile and well worth reading, for its many other insights. I also don't like Lincoln's theory about Lizzie's seizures, tied into her period, or any such restrospective diagnoses.)

Per previous post: I think Lizzie's period was over when the murders were committed, and Bridget knew the truth, which is why she spoke up about the wash.

************************************************************
Here's my theory re Uncle John's presence-- that Lizzie had said something to Emma about going back to Second Street (and not on to Marion) to take care of Mrs. Borden.

Emma alerts JVM to go down and either cover Lizzie's tracks, or manage the damage control when she strikes. Also, to handle Mr. Borden.

I think JVM is stunned the a.m. of the murders to discover that Mr. Borden is dead, too. JVM could have easily heard the news in the crowd outside. Hence, JVM's pause by the pear tree.

Going back to Lincoln's property-transfer theory: I don't think Mr. Borden would have repeated that mistake. There was enough discord in the house already. I believe he was planning to put stocks in Abby's name, so that she would be protected should he die intestate, which he did.

I know this is a long post, but: I wonder if Mr. Borden ever planned to draw up another will. Maybe he was so disgusted with Emma and Lizzie that he was just going to let them hash things out in the courts rather than leave them specific bequests, at which they would have balked, no matter how generous. Perhaps he was going to have them "jump hoops" through the courts in order to get anything.

But-- the stocks would have been the perfect way to protect Abby. Something in her name and therefore unclaimable by Lizzie and Emma.
However, if Emma and Lizzie found out about his plan .... well, I believe they did. Emma clears out her closet for an extended trip, and Lizzie decides to take matters into her own hand.

[Allen]

Catching up a little on the thread.

That's a good theory about Andrew putting the lock in the barn. Andrew was seen coming around the side of the house, and this would seem to coincide with that. Whether or not the barn had a lock is a good question. He might have walked to the side door thinking he could get through without his key, saw it was latched, and headed around front. It seems the side door was a preferred entrance and exit point for many people.

I've thought that about the menstrual napkins for quite some time. It's my belief that Lizzie did use these to clean herself up. She then put them in the bucket claiming they were her menstrual rags .Bridget states she did not see the bucket there when she had done the laundry. If she had she would've washed them and not left them there. In my opinion, Bridget was more fastidious in her duties than to leave them sit. It's probable she had some rough idea of when Lizzie had her period each month. If it was her job to wash these bloody napkins, which evidently it was, I think I'd remember a job like that. It's my theory that to get the napkins to the first floor without being asked about them, Lizzie secreted them in her stack of handkerchiefs she brought down to iron. I think this is why there are so many contradictions as to when she started ironing that morning.

Abby would've been entitled to one third of Andrew's estate, by the Massachusetts statutes of the time, even if Andrew had died intestate. Putting stocks in Abby's name would've riled the girls just as much as putting the farm in her name, in my opinion. I think putting anything in Abby's name would've caused discord. He simply could've made a will and kept it's contents private until he passed away and it was read. The girls could've been kept in the dark. I think that would've been the path of least resistance for him if he wanted to make specific bequests to Abby or her family in the event he died first.

I don't believe John knew anything about the murders before they happened. If he was there to cover Lizzie's tracks, he did a terrible job. He spent way too much time out visiting and socializing. They did not confer on anything. They didn't even speak or spend time in the same room. He did very little to refute the evidence against her, other than to say he believed her innocent. I think the letter was carried as a means to verify that he was actually acting with Andrew's consent if the question arose with those involved. Or it may have contained information about the matter that he wanted to keep on hand without having to go back and ask Andrew.

[DJ]

Oh, Uncle John fibs about the cellar door being open, too, when he was standing by the pear tree, in clear view of it, collecting his thoughts and preparing his actions before entering the house.

Which indicates to me that he IS doing damage control-- in the sense that he covers for Lizzie at every juncture.

Now, whether he knew about her plan in advance, I obviously cannot say.

However, the evidence shows he is covering for her, right from the beginning.

One of the first things he tells the police is that he believes the murders will never be solved! Can you imagine being at the scene of a gruesome double homicide and having the moxie to tell the police, "These will never be solved?"

Again, I quote Lt. Columbo: "Mr. Morse, how do you know so much about these murders?"

Prescient, to be sure, though. But, if people are confounding the evidence-- and let's call that by its proper name, obstruction of justice-- that renders the murders much more of a mystery.

*************************************************************
I hold by the stock-transfer theory, that Mr. Borden wanted to protect Abby (and I'm sure she wanted such protection) above and beyond
whatever Massachusetts law guaranteed. Maybe he wanted her to have one-third, plus the stocks.

I repeat, the stocks would have been great security for Abby, something in her name. As much as Lizzie probably snooped and eavesdropped, she could have come to know about the transfer that would have been meant to be secret.

Here's the rub: Something was pressing to drive Lizzie back to No. 92 to dispatch Mr. and Mrs. Borden.

It could have been a will-- Lizzie's old friend in New Bedford told the police that Lizzie had mentioned, that late July, that she thought she and Emma would be cut off entirely.

[Yooper]

Anything Andrew wanted Abby to have would best have been transferred to her name before he died. There would be no contesting it, and it would be held out of a percentage arrangement if he died intestate. It was something he could do quietly and without fear of contradiction if he and Abby kept it to themselves. If Lizzie was afraid of an imminent transfer of this kind, or of a will being written, and she cut her vacation short as a result, it implies that someone couldn't keep their trap shut. If Andrew was the one to mention it to Lizzie or Emma, it implies retribution because he knew it would drive them nuts. John Morse is the only other person I can think of who might have been aware of a pending transaction and who might have informed Emma or Lizzie.

[Grace]

Hi all! Been away for a bit, but I do check in here when I have a spare moment. I attended a one woman play on our Lizbeth this past summer in Huntington and it was very very good.

I concur with the theory that Uncle John was indeed a part of the goings on that fateful morning. The major two factors that bring me to this opinion are the fact that he went over to the farm on Wednesday afternoon and brought back those eggs (the delivery of which would've no doubt brought the farm workers over to Second St on Thursday morning at some inconvenient moment perhaps). And also how thoroughly he had his alibi buttoned up, right down to the number on the cap of the conductor of his trolley car. The other oddities mentioned above also bear out the very distinct possibility that he knew something about what was going to happen.

Emma, too, for that matter. To me it seems way too convenient for her to have been out of town, when by all accounts that was a very rare occasion for Emma. She was quite the homebody, that one.

I have a question about some of the testimony that I read recently, I believe from Lizzie's Inquest testimony. I am hoping some of you here with your vast knowledge of the case can answer this for me and I do apologize in advance if it has been discussed previously.

Lizzie states that she was asked by Mrs. Borden that fateful morning to "direct some wrappers" for her. Lizzie informs that she did in fact direct these wrappers for Mrs Borden that morning. Seems an odd thing to do a chore for someone, knowing or suspecting that said person will not see the day end, but she says that she did carry out this chore that morning. What exactly does it mean to "direct some wrappers"?

[Grace]

Just went back and reread the testimony and just to be specific, she states that she was asked to "direct some paper wrappers".

If I had to venture a guess and it is just a guess, I would venture that something or somethings, like a parcel, were to be sent through the mail and the addresses needed to be put to the paper that the parcels were to be wrapped in?

[diana]

Well, I know it's not a good idea to use Victoria Lincoln as the definitive source for anything, but it's the reference I could find quickly. I know we've talked about these wrappers on the forum over the years, but I'm having trouble finding those discussions in the archives.

Anyway, here's what Lincoln says:

"The family subscribed to the Providence Journal, a solid, conservative, well-written sheet, to which my own family also subscribed. To insure its proper delivery, it came in a wrapper bearing the subscriber's address. This wrapping, if done by the dealer, cost extra. The thrifty method was to supply the newsdealer with wrappers that one had preaddressed.

This Lizzie did for her father; she was justly proud of her handwriting, for every scrap of it that has been saved is as bland, inhuman, and void of character as the sample lines that used to be printed at the top of the old Palmer-method copy books." (Lincoln, 126)

Does anyone remember how, or if, this theory of Lincoln's is backed up?

[Nadzieja]

I asked this question a few years back and someone answered with the same information, but I can't put down a reference. I heard it was a very common practice.

[Allen]

I'm not sure how well Uncle John covers for Lizzie. He probably did more harm than good by testifying to having no contact, or even a passing glance, during the entire visit. He claims he has no idea what she was doing or where she was the entire time he was there. He says he doesn't even see her when she comes home because it was too dark. Not a very good method for covering for someone. He doesn't help her alibi. I can't point to an instance of his actually defending her other than saying he believes she's innocent. He states she saw Andrew hook the screen door after he went out it. He could've stated the door wasn't hooked. He could've been mistaken about the cellar door.

The eggs theory is kind of flimsy for me. In my opinion, if he was truly coming over to do business that dealt with the farm, it would seem natural to go to the farm. I think also it was an excuse to go and visit his Uncle who lived nearby. He seemed very fond of going visiting.

[DJ]

They may or may not have communicated. It would have been easy enough upstairs, and, as long as they did so out of earshot and view of Bridget, no one could contradict their testimony.

However, by saying they had no communication (which may be true), then JVM frees Lizzie up to spin her account of her whereabouts, and vice versa.

Therefore, there would be no discrepancies in testimony. They avoided each other, never spoke.


And, JVM never throws Lizzie to the wolves, even when the light of suspicion glares brightly on him.

Nor does she ever finger him.

For two people who don't communicate, they're very much on the same page.

As the Church Lady used to say, "Well, isn't that convenient?"

[Grace]

Thanks for clearing that up for me, Diana. I did read that telling but it was a few years back and I did mostly discount the majority of what I read in that novel. I don't even know if I kept it.

DJ, that's how I look at the situation with Uncle John and Lizzie. It's one of those things where whenever I am reading all the times that they denied seeing or speaking to one another, in my head I start hearing the "The lady doth protest too much, methinks." from Hamlet, methinks.

[Yooper]

Other than Bridget, there was no one other than John Morse and Lizzie to corroborate each other. They might have said or done anything and if Bridget wasn't aware of it, there was no one left to deny it.

Lizzie was upstairs when Morse arrived. Morse left for the farm, Lizzie went to visit Alice Russell. Morse returned before Lizzie, when Lizzie returned she went directly to her room. Since the comings and goings are corroborated by other testimony, the only place for discrepancy is when Morse first arrived, but Bridget would likely have been aware of it.

Bridget would have been aware of any interaction between Morse and Lizzie the day of the murders, too.

In my opinion, unless we believe Morse and Lizzie were whispering murder plans through a keyhole in the middle of the night, including John Morse in the plan may well imply Bridget was also in on it, or at least that she was aware of it.

[DJ]

Well, didn't Bridget go out the p.m. of Aug. 3rd, to visit her (servant in another household) friend?

Wasn't everyone retired for the evening at no. 92 when she returned? So, whatever happened between Lizzie's return from Alice Russell's and Bridget's return from her visit-- we only have Lizzie's and JVM"s word.

She could have gone into the guest room and taken a chair, either that night or early that morning.

If Lizzie was already planning to "strike" that a.m., my guess is that she slept little that night, and was probably awake long before she went downstairs.

I'm just saying that it would have been easy enough for JVM and Lizzie to have had a little midnight chat (or "before Bridget came home chat") or early a.m. chat.

Or, maybe they were telling the truth, in that instance.