Ok....
Many people assume that the handless hatchet was the murder weapon. If so-- was the craftsmanship on the handles so substandard in those days that a woman (assuming L's guilt) could break one-- even in a vice?
Lizzie is described as 5'4" and 135lbs. (Masterton p28)
Again.. hearkening to upper body strength.... Lizzie and I weigh the same. I am 7" taller-- but our weight is the same. I could not break the handle off a hatchet. Not even in a vice and I tried for about 20 minutes.
I put all my weight behind it. I had it in a vice and flung my total body weight at it-- hitting it with my hip. No dice. I finally heard a small cracking sound when I took a run at it and kicked it with my foot. Could Lizzie have done this in her clothing??? I doubt it.
Thayne broke it on his 4th attempt. He is 6'3" 190 and works out. He was able to break it with the hip fling method.
Of course I realize the entire adrenalin theory-- but if Lizzie did it and she used the handless hatchet that shows a certain amount of planning and thought, especially between the murders. To me, this does not afford her spur of the moment rage and the adrenalin she would have needed to break that handle....
Personally-- I do not think the handless hatchet was the murder weapon but a lot of (more experienced) Bordenites do....
Breaking a hatchet handle
Moderator: Adminlizzieborden
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Kat
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That's amazing and heroic for you guys to chance life & limb to experiment like that!
Susan, she is your spirtitual twin!
I think it depends on the condition of the hatchet handle. If it was already compromised, it might have broken during the killing of Andrew, hence the lesser amount of whacks to papa.
Susan, she is your spirtitual twin!
I think it depends on the condition of the hatchet handle. If it was already compromised, it might have broken during the killing of Andrew, hence the lesser amount of whacks to papa.
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diana
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Lincoln suggests a vise may have been used because there was one in the barn:
"There was running water in the barn and a vise and some heavy hammers, there was a fire in the coal stove. A hatchet-head can be broken from its handle and the handle burned." (page 99)
Later -- Lincoln says Medley went to the barn to investigate "because Miss Borden's casual statement that she had spent half an hour in its loft had struck him as most surprising; he wanted to look at the place. It was a one-horse stable with room for both a carriage and a sleigh; in other words, a two-car garage. There was still an old sleigh in it, which had not been sold off with the horse and carriage. Just inside the door, along with an old vise and some yard and carpentry tools, was a smallish wooden box of assorted scrap, bits of broken metal, door knobs, old locks, a folded sheet of lead. (page 122)
And still later: -- "The running water, the vise, the heavy hammers, are the sort of details that haunt her testimony as dangerous possible clues; it was not like her to say that she had been out there where the police had found them.
Yet she had good reason to say so. Though the prosecution furiously refused to believe him, the ice-cream man who sometimes made deliveries at her house had seen her coming back from the barn wearing the bengaline with its dark blue back-ground. Her hand, held close to the sweep of her long skirt, would have held the stick and the hatchet-head hidden; he did not see them. But, he had seen her." (page 136-7)
Thanks for the tip about the hatchets on e-bay, Audrey. That was a fun browse!
"There was running water in the barn and a vise and some heavy hammers, there was a fire in the coal stove. A hatchet-head can be broken from its handle and the handle burned." (page 99)
Later -- Lincoln says Medley went to the barn to investigate "because Miss Borden's casual statement that she had spent half an hour in its loft had struck him as most surprising; he wanted to look at the place. It was a one-horse stable with room for both a carriage and a sleigh; in other words, a two-car garage. There was still an old sleigh in it, which had not been sold off with the horse and carriage. Just inside the door, along with an old vise and some yard and carpentry tools, was a smallish wooden box of assorted scrap, bits of broken metal, door knobs, old locks, a folded sheet of lead. (page 122)
And still later: -- "The running water, the vise, the heavy hammers, are the sort of details that haunt her testimony as dangerous possible clues; it was not like her to say that she had been out there where the police had found them.
Yet she had good reason to say so. Though the prosecution furiously refused to believe him, the ice-cream man who sometimes made deliveries at her house had seen her coming back from the barn wearing the bengaline with its dark blue back-ground. Her hand, held close to the sweep of her long skirt, would have held the stick and the hatchet-head hidden; he did not see them. But, he had seen her." (page 136-7)
Thanks for the tip about the hatchets on e-bay, Audrey. That was a fun browse!
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FairhavenGuy
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Breaking a hatchet handle is pretty tough under most conditions. The handles are usually hickory or ash, woods chosen for their toughness. I doubt that whacking both Abby and Andrew would compromise a hatchet handle much.
The thing about the handless hatchet is the way it's broken--so cleanly across the grain, which I don't think would happen unless it were snapped off in a vice.
I throw tomahawks as part of my colonial re-enacting. The handles do break from the force of hitting a wooden target at a distance of about 15 feet, and it's usually near where the handle goes into the head. However, there is usually at least some splitting lengthwise with the grain.
The way that hatchet's handle is broken is odd. It was also odd to see on the TV show that it still looks so freshly broken compared to the rest of the wood, even after 112 years.
I have no opinion as to whether it's the murder weapon or not.
The thing about the handless hatchet is the way it's broken--so cleanly across the grain, which I don't think would happen unless it were snapped off in a vice.
I throw tomahawks as part of my colonial re-enacting. The handles do break from the force of hitting a wooden target at a distance of about 15 feet, and it's usually near where the handle goes into the head. However, there is usually at least some splitting lengthwise with the grain.
The way that hatchet's handle is broken is odd. It was also odd to see on the TV show that it still looks so freshly broken compared to the rest of the wood, even after 112 years.
I have no opinion as to whether it's the murder weapon or not.
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Audrey
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I am with Chris.. I can not believe the whacks could compromise the handle enough to make it easier to break than it would have been usually.
Here is an outline of my experiment:
A)- I began by whacking the hatchet head as hard as I could on the concrete floor of my garage causing painful shock waves to race up my arms. No progress.
B)- I then stood on the hatchet head and tried to break the handle by pulling up on it. No dice.
C)- I put the hatchet head in the vise. (I do not think I would have thought of this on my own-- and especially not in the heat of the aftermath of a murderous moment) I pushed, I pulled, I kicked, I threw my hip into it.. I did hear cracking when I threw my hip into it.
D)- I got my husband to try. He pushed and pulled and finally broke it with the hip thrust-- did we weaken it with previous experimentation? Perhaps.
My point is--- I am not a large woman and I may not have a large amount of upper body strength-- But I am not weak nor do I give up easily. In fact, I think I am in better shape than Lizzie was in 1892!
To accept that the handleless hatchet is the murder weapon we have to accept that the killer, within the matter of minutes had not only the strength but the wherewithal to think of using a vise or other method to break the handle.
To accept Lizzie as the lone killer we also have to accept she had the strength to swing the hatchet hard enough to crack skulls.
If it was her I would hate to meet her in a dark parking lot if she had designs on me or my purse and the last thing I ever would have done was gone about FR chanting that little ditty anywhere she might be to hear me!
Here is an outline of my experiment:
A)- I began by whacking the hatchet head as hard as I could on the concrete floor of my garage causing painful shock waves to race up my arms. No progress.
B)- I then stood on the hatchet head and tried to break the handle by pulling up on it. No dice.
C)- I put the hatchet head in the vise. (I do not think I would have thought of this on my own-- and especially not in the heat of the aftermath of a murderous moment) I pushed, I pulled, I kicked, I threw my hip into it.. I did hear cracking when I threw my hip into it.
D)- I got my husband to try. He pushed and pulled and finally broke it with the hip thrust-- did we weaken it with previous experimentation? Perhaps.
My point is--- I am not a large woman and I may not have a large amount of upper body strength-- But I am not weak nor do I give up easily. In fact, I think I am in better shape than Lizzie was in 1892!
To accept that the handleless hatchet is the murder weapon we have to accept that the killer, within the matter of minutes had not only the strength but the wherewithal to think of using a vise or other method to break the handle.
To accept Lizzie as the lone killer we also have to accept she had the strength to swing the hatchet hard enough to crack skulls.
If it was her I would hate to meet her in a dark parking lot if she had designs on me or my purse and the last thing I ever would have done was gone about FR chanting that little ditty anywhere she might be to hear me!
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Harry
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The problem with the vise is that the ONLY place it is mentioned is in Lincoln's book.
Nowhere in the description of the contents of the barn or house is a vise mentioned.
A vise is a common enough item and I suppose it's possible the Borden's had one but I should think it would have been in some source in addition to Lincoln.
Nowhere in the description of the contents of the barn or house is a vise mentioned.
A vise is a common enough item and I suppose it's possible the Borden's had one but I should think it would have been in some source in addition to Lincoln.
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Kat
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I'm thinking about all those split bats at baseball games which are made from ash.
If there is a compromise in the wood to begin with, I think a handle can split or break. I don't necessarily believe it would split cleanly- but then we have testimony of splinters tho how many, how long, and from where on the wood it came, we don't know.
If a vise was used, I'd think a saw was used. Partly saw thru and then force the break.
I also have not an opinion as to the HH being the murder weapon.
If there is a compromise in the wood to begin with, I think a handle can split or break. I don't necessarily believe it would split cleanly- but then we have testimony of splinters tho how many, how long, and from where on the wood it came, we don't know.
If a vise was used, I'd think a saw was used. Partly saw thru and then force the break.
I also have not an opinion as to the HH being the murder weapon.
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doug65oh
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The notion of a "forced break" to the hatchet handle is intriguing, as it raises the questions "Who, How, and Why?" Not that it's particularly a bombshell, but the only reasonable answer that comes to mind as to "Why" that I can see would be in order to make it *appear* to be nothing more than an old and disused implement covered in ash. The "Who" would logically be the murderer, or some accomplice.
A bit off the path from that, but I do have to wonder: Have any of the investigators ever tried to determine approximately how many foot-pounds of pressure it might take to fracture a skull from the same relative positions that the killer (or if you like, killers) took? (I do not recollect seeing that discussed on the show.)
A bit off the path from that, but I do have to wonder: Have any of the investigators ever tried to determine approximately how many foot-pounds of pressure it might take to fracture a skull from the same relative positions that the killer (or if you like, killers) took? (I do not recollect seeing that discussed on the show.)
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Susan
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That's amazing and heroic for you guys to chance life & limb to experiment like that!
Susan, she is your spirtitual twin!
Good for you, Audrey! I too have wondered about the broken hatchet handle, though haven't had the space or materials to try anything myself. I recall we had discussed in the past that perhaps the hatchet handle was comprimised in some way and Andrew himself had broken it so that it wouldn't get used and have someone get hurt. I do think a vise must have been used, regardless of who broke it though to get such a clean break close to the hatchet head. Do you think it possible that some other tools were used in the breaking of the handle? A hammer of some kind? Maybe a saw to start the break? Another hatchet?!
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Audrey
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Look here...
http://www.oldjimbo.com/survival/hatchet.html
http://www.oldjimbo.com/survival/hatchets2.html
http://www.oldjimbo.com/survival/hatchets3.html
http://www.oldjimbo.com/survival/hatchets4.html
I have emailed the author asking his opinion as to the strength, "breakability" and "sawability" of an 1890's hatchet.
http://www.oldjimbo.com/survival/hatchet.html
http://www.oldjimbo.com/survival/hatchets2.html
http://www.oldjimbo.com/survival/hatchets3.html
http://www.oldjimbo.com/survival/hatchets4.html
I have emailed the author asking his opinion as to the strength, "breakability" and "sawability" of an 1890's hatchet.
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FairhavenGuy
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Audrey, if the saw is halfway decent you shouldn’t have any problem at all.
I don’t think a saw was used on the handless hatchet, though. The sawing would clearly show on one side of the “break.” This would have been noted by the various experts.
There are two methods of snapping off the handle using a vise. The most obvious method is to clamp the head into the vise and put enough force on the handle to snap it off. The leverage of the handle itself would allow this to be done without additional tools, if enough force was put on it. This could even be done without a vise if you had something else to wedge the hatchet head into.
Method two is to clamp the handle in the vise near the head and then whack the head of the hatchet with a heavy hammer. Most people would not think of this method first.
Kat, the force of a hard ball pitched by a pro into a bat swung by a slugger is a lot greater that the force of bopping a skull with a hatchet. Even so, broken bats are not really all that common. Try whacking a baseball bat on the street forty times to “compromise” it, then try to break it. I don’t think so.
I don’t think a saw was used on the handless hatchet, though. The sawing would clearly show on one side of the “break.” This would have been noted by the various experts.
There are two methods of snapping off the handle using a vise. The most obvious method is to clamp the head into the vise and put enough force on the handle to snap it off. The leverage of the handle itself would allow this to be done without additional tools, if enough force was put on it. This could even be done without a vise if you had something else to wedge the hatchet head into.
Method two is to clamp the handle in the vise near the head and then whack the head of the hatchet with a heavy hammer. Most people would not think of this method first.
Kat, the force of a hard ball pitched by a pro into a bat swung by a slugger is a lot greater that the force of bopping a skull with a hatchet. Even so, broken bats are not really all that common. Try whacking a baseball bat on the street forty times to “compromise” it, then try to break it. I don’t think so.
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Nancie
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Interesting thread, why would the Bordens keep a
broken hatchet head in the basement anyway, of no
use for anything. The only explanation I can see is
as Kat said, the hatchet handle was already worn and ready to break and it did so in the act? And then Lizzie or somebody put it in a box in the cellar
and covered with ashes? If that were the case, then the murderer would have to be someone in the
house, an outside intruder would have taken the weapon with him/her?
broken hatchet head in the basement anyway, of no
use for anything. The only explanation I can see is
as Kat said, the hatchet handle was already worn and ready to break and it did so in the act? And then Lizzie or somebody put it in a box in the cellar
and covered with ashes? If that were the case, then the murderer would have to be someone in the
house, an outside intruder would have taken the weapon with him/her?
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Audrey
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Interesting response to my email.....
The Martins wrote:
Hello...
I am Audrey Martin and I am contacting you via your Internet site in
regards to hatchets.
I am a member of an Internet group who discusses Lizzie Borden and the
crimes surrounding her parents' murders in 1982.
You may know that a hatchet was purported to be the murder weapon,
specifically one with a broken handle. Prosecution claimed that
Lizzie, a 5'4" 135lb woman broke the hatchet's handle off within
minutes of killing her father in order to disguise the murder weapon.
Although I am considerably taller 5'11", I do weigh the same as Lizzie
and I attempted this weekend to break a hatchet handle. I was unable
to do so.
I am curious as to your thoughts on the ease of breaking a handle on a
hatchet circa 1892. What types of woods are generally used in hatchet
handles? Would it be easy to saw a hatchet handle? Are they not made
of hard words? How is the wood cut?
Please help!
Your site is nice-- a lot of great information and easy to find with
google!
Thanks.
Audrey Martin
Hi Audrey:
That has to be one of the strangest cases ever - which is why it's a
favorite one to replay and re-analyze.
It won't serve much purpose to try to break a modern hatchet handle. The
broken hatchet in the famous picture - and likely most of the others
around the house were the old GW pattern. It has the octagonal (though
in the picture looks hexagonal because you can't see some of the flats)
hammer head and wide flat blade for wood shaping and splitting kindling.
They came in various sizes, most being the size of a regular hammer.
They took a regular size hammer handle too, which is quite unlike an axe
or hatchet handle as seen now.
In the old days handles were made more carefully, and had vertical
grain. If you look at the end of the handle, the grain lines run from
top to bottom. This makes the hatchet or hammer handle less likely to
break if used properly but easier to beak with sideways force. If that
hatchet had been broken by force, though, it would have shown a wide
break and far more splintering, or would have broken where the handle
meets the metal head. It was sawn - as the break and minimal
splintering show. That is strange since if one were replacing a head,
one would saw close to the head and pound the wood forward through the
head.
It's a puzzle to me why someone would use the hatchet blade. Those
hatchets were routinely used to kill animals for butchering and then the
animal was bonked with the hammer head end. That's why it was
constructed that way. instead of flaring out to be more suitable for
hitting nails. Very thorough and a lot less spurting blood. the murders
are supposed to have happened in blind rage, which might account for
much, but in that case normally people are hit on top of the head: I
guess it seems a logical spot.. In that case the axe or hatchet often
sticks fast in the thicker part of the skull.
All in all - even with original testimony still available - it's one
puzzling case! Nothing quite fits..
take care,
Jimbo
The Martins wrote:
Hello...
I am Audrey Martin and I am contacting you via your Internet site in
regards to hatchets.
I am a member of an Internet group who discusses Lizzie Borden and the
crimes surrounding her parents' murders in 1982.
You may know that a hatchet was purported to be the murder weapon,
specifically one with a broken handle. Prosecution claimed that
Lizzie, a 5'4" 135lb woman broke the hatchet's handle off within
minutes of killing her father in order to disguise the murder weapon.
Although I am considerably taller 5'11", I do weigh the same as Lizzie
and I attempted this weekend to break a hatchet handle. I was unable
to do so.
I am curious as to your thoughts on the ease of breaking a handle on a
hatchet circa 1892. What types of woods are generally used in hatchet
handles? Would it be easy to saw a hatchet handle? Are they not made
of hard words? How is the wood cut?
Please help!
Your site is nice-- a lot of great information and easy to find with
google!
Thanks.
Audrey Martin
Hi Audrey:
That has to be one of the strangest cases ever - which is why it's a
favorite one to replay and re-analyze.
It won't serve much purpose to try to break a modern hatchet handle. The
broken hatchet in the famous picture - and likely most of the others
around the house were the old GW pattern. It has the octagonal (though
in the picture looks hexagonal because you can't see some of the flats)
hammer head and wide flat blade for wood shaping and splitting kindling.
They came in various sizes, most being the size of a regular hammer.
They took a regular size hammer handle too, which is quite unlike an axe
or hatchet handle as seen now.
In the old days handles were made more carefully, and had vertical
grain. If you look at the end of the handle, the grain lines run from
top to bottom. This makes the hatchet or hammer handle less likely to
break if used properly but easier to beak with sideways force. If that
hatchet had been broken by force, though, it would have shown a wide
break and far more splintering, or would have broken where the handle
meets the metal head. It was sawn - as the break and minimal
splintering show. That is strange since if one were replacing a head,
one would saw close to the head and pound the wood forward through the
head.
It's a puzzle to me why someone would use the hatchet blade. Those
hatchets were routinely used to kill animals for butchering and then the
animal was bonked with the hammer head end. That's why it was
constructed that way. instead of flaring out to be more suitable for
hitting nails. Very thorough and a lot less spurting blood. the murders
are supposed to have happened in blind rage, which might account for
much, but in that case normally people are hit on top of the head: I
guess it seems a logical spot.. In that case the axe or hatchet often
sticks fast in the thicker part of the skull.
All in all - even with original testimony still available - it's one
puzzling case! Nothing quite fits..
take care,
Jimbo
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Kat
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Thanks for the info, Audrey!
It struck me last night that the hatchet head could have been held in the vise and the handle dismantled or broken or sawn somehow, as I recalled the marks on the metal. There are 2 gouges in the hatchet head.
Otherwise, I was also thinking that whether this handle was broken Thursday, August 4th, 1892, or whether it was broken the day before or a month before, it was still broken or removed somehow- I mean, we have a hatchet head with a bit of wood in it, and no handle.
Maybe the question should be rather was there time on Thursday for it to be broken or dismantled by Lizzie or someone on the property after Andrew's murder and before it was found in the cellar?
Here are the gouges. This is from the FRHS website. The circles are mine.
Please click on the picture to make it bigger.
It struck me last night that the hatchet head could have been held in the vise and the handle dismantled or broken or sawn somehow, as I recalled the marks on the metal. There are 2 gouges in the hatchet head.
Otherwise, I was also thinking that whether this handle was broken Thursday, August 4th, 1892, or whether it was broken the day before or a month before, it was still broken or removed somehow- I mean, we have a hatchet head with a bit of wood in it, and no handle.
Maybe the question should be rather was there time on Thursday for it to be broken or dismantled by Lizzie or someone on the property after Andrew's murder and before it was found in the cellar?
Here are the gouges. This is from the FRHS website. The circles are mine.
Please click on the picture to make it bigger.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
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doug65oh
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Hmmm... interesting. It could be my eyes but I had the distinct impression from the way the hatchet was discussed in the documentary that there was some sort of tool mark or scarring present (and visible) on the head - and I sure don't see anything of the sort in that photograph. What it looks like most is that the head has been nicked... perhaps in the course of normal use.
but I had the distinct impression from the way the hatchet was discussed in the documentary that there was some sort of tool mark or scarring present (and visible) on the head - and I sure don't see anything of the sort in that photograph. What it looks like most is that the head has been nicked... perhaps in the course of normal use.-
Susan
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Thanks for the nice, clear pictures, Kat. I was wondering, what was done with the hatchet head once the Fall River police had it? Or the doctors who may have ran tests on it? Did they use a vise or any other equipment to hold it or were the marks already on there when they found it? It looks like there is some sort of marks on whats left of the handle.
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Audrey
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Jimmy S. Windeskog
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Is sawing the HH the first thing that comes to ones mind after two murders? If it is, I have to say one has to planned the whole thing for a while. But not very well.
In this map over the lot ther is a well (http://www.halfmoon.org/borden/outside.gif). So if this is rigth (if it really is a well there), useing the well seams like the second best thing to do besides taking the wepon with you.
In this map over the lot ther is a well (http://www.halfmoon.org/borden/outside.gif). So if this is rigth (if it really is a well there), useing the well seams like the second best thing to do besides taking the wepon with you.
"I did it for Rome"
Livia, the play "I, Cladius"
Livia, the play "I, Cladius"
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FairhavenGuy
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One one buys a hatchet, replacing the handle from time to time is standard practice. It has nothing to do with Andrew's cheapness. When a handle breaks, you replace it. Any hardware store today has replacement handles right alongside the axes and hatchets.
By the way, we all remember, don't we, how Mullaly tesitifies at the trial about the other piece of the handle being in the box in the cellar, too? It's on page 631.
"Was it a piece of that same handle?"
"It was a piece that corresponded with that."
"The rest of the handle?"
"It was a piece with a fresh break in it."
"The other piece?"
"Yes sir."
Then this exchange sounds like something out of Monty Python:
"Was it a handle to a hatchet?"
"It was what I call a hatchet handle."
It was put back in the box and nobody ever saw it again!
By the way, we all remember, don't we, how Mullaly tesitifies at the trial about the other piece of the handle being in the box in the cellar, too? It's on page 631.
"Was it a piece of that same handle?"
"It was a piece that corresponded with that."
"The rest of the handle?"
"It was a piece with a fresh break in it."
"The other piece?"
"Yes sir."
Then this exchange sounds like something out of Monty Python:
"Was it a handle to a hatchet?"
"It was what I call a hatchet handle."
It was put back in the box and nobody ever saw it again!
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Jimmy S. Windeskog
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Are you saying that the handel would alreday been replaced if it not was the murder wepon or that is logical to keep a broken hatchet?FairhavenGuy @ Tue Nov 16, 2004 4:14 pm wrote:One one buys a hatchet, replacing the handle from time to time is standard practice. It has nothing to do with Andrew's cheapness. When a breaks, you replace it. Any hardware store today has replacement handles right alongside the axes and hatchets.
But as i see it, that hachethandle was not broken of, it must have been sawn of, for one reson or other.
"I did it for Rome"
Livia, the play "I, Cladius"
Livia, the play "I, Cladius"
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FairhavenGuy
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Wordweaver
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WHy would the wealthy Andrew pick up a broken lock on his way home? Because he was notably thrifty even among his "use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without" Yankee compatriots. Victorian New England was not a throwaway culture.Nancie @ Mon Nov 15, 2004 12:49 pm wrote:Interesting thread, why would the Bordens keep a broken hatchet head in the basement anyway, of no use for anything.
In any case, hatchet and axe handles can readily be replaced. And split, too. Here's a discussion of breaking and replacing axe handles that may be of interest.
Lynn
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william
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In my formative days we lived with my grandfather in his home. He had a wood burning fireplace. Every winter he would chop up a half cord of firewood. If memory serves, he had an axe and a couple of hatchets.
On occassion one of the axe handles would fracture. Grandpa would put the hatchet in a vise and saw off the head. He did this so no one would use it and possibly injure themselves. He'd throw the hatchet head into a corner of the woodshed with a small piece of the handle still protruding. Eventually he'd go into town and purchase a new handle.
There was no big rush - he had the other hatchet. I can recall Gramps repeating this procedure twice while we were living with him.
On occassion one of the axe handles would fracture. Grandpa would put the hatchet in a vise and saw off the head. He did this so no one would use it and possibly injure themselves. He'd throw the hatchet head into a corner of the woodshed with a small piece of the handle still protruding. Eventually he'd go into town and purchase a new handle.
There was no big rush - he had the other hatchet. I can recall Gramps repeating this procedure twice while we were living with him.
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Kat
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Jimmy S. Windeskog
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william
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Old axe handles were usually constructed from oak or other hardwood with a vertical grain. If the axe handle was fractured by force a splintered break would result, unlike the Borden hatchet which was obviously sawed after placement in a vise. The use of a vise is indicated by the uniform marks on the remnant of the handle
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Kat
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Our hatchet requires gilt, because gilt was found in Abby's wound.
But, after boiling and handling by prosecution experts and defense experts, why was the gilt found so late in the inquiry?
(The defense studied the skulls, causing a letter from Dr. Draper to Knowton informing him on May 28th, 1893. The gilt was then found by Draper and word was sent to Knowlton May 31st, 1893).
Letter from Dr. Draper, to Knowlton, May 31st, 1893:
..."The other discovery is still more important; on one of the cuts in Mrs. Borden's skull, near the right ear, there is
a very small but unmistakable deposit of the gilt metal with which hatchets are ornamented when they leave the factory; this deposit (Dr. Cheever confirmed the observation fully) means that the hatchet used in killing Mrs. Borden was a new hatchet, not long out of the store. Perhaps this is not new information either to you or Dr. Dolan; it was new to me and seemed important enough to justify immediate conveyance to you. The shining deposit can be seen with the naked eye; it is plainly visible with the use of a lens, when once its situation is indicated."...
But, after boiling and handling by prosecution experts and defense experts, why was the gilt found so late in the inquiry?
(The defense studied the skulls, causing a letter from Dr. Draper to Knowton informing him on May 28th, 1893. The gilt was then found by Draper and word was sent to Knowlton May 31st, 1893).
Letter from Dr. Draper, to Knowlton, May 31st, 1893:
..."The other discovery is still more important; on one of the cuts in Mrs. Borden's skull, near the right ear, there is
a very small but unmistakable deposit of the gilt metal with which hatchets are ornamented when they leave the factory; this deposit (Dr. Cheever confirmed the observation fully) means that the hatchet used in killing Mrs. Borden was a new hatchet, not long out of the store. Perhaps this is not new information either to you or Dr. Dolan; it was new to me and seemed important enough to justify immediate conveyance to you. The shining deposit can be seen with the naked eye; it is plainly visible with the use of a lens, when once its situation is indicated."...
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1bigsteve
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Re: Breaking a hatchet handle
Audrey @ Sun Nov 14, 2004 8:03 am wrote:Ok....
Many people assume that the handless hatchet was the murder weapon. If so-- was the craftsmanship on the handles so substandard in those days that a woman (assuming L's guilt) could break one-- even in a vice?
Lizzie is described as 5'4" and 135lbs. (Masterton p28)
Again.. hearkening to upper body strength.... Lizzie and I weigh the same. I am 7" taller-- but our weight is the same. I could not break the handle off a hatchet. Not even in a vice and I tried for about 20 minutes.
I put all my weight behind it. I had it in a vice and flung my total body weight at it-- hitting it with my hip. No dice. I finally heard a small cracking sound when I took a run at it and kicked it with my foot. Could Lizzie have done this in her clothing??? I doubt it.
Thayne broke it on his 4th attempt. He is 6'3" 190 and works out. He was able to break it with the hip fling method.
Of course I realize the entire adrenalin theory-- but if Lizzie did it and she used the handless hatchet that shows a certain amount of planning and thought, especially between the murders. To me, this does not afford her spur of the moment rage and the adrenalin she would have needed to break that handle....
Personally-- I do not think the handless hatchet was the murder weapon but a lot of (more experienced) Bordenites do....
Usually when an axe handle is broken it happen's when the user misses the target and the part of the handle that is closest to the head strikes the target. In other words the blade over-shoots the target. I have done this myself. It is unlikely that this would happen if the handle hit a moveable human head.
I broke a perfectly good hammer handle set in a vice by grabbing the end and bending it toward me. There was more splintering then what you see in the photos of the borden hatchet. If I had broken the handle by bending it in the direction from the claw to the head, the splintering would have been more simular to what you see in the photo of the Borden hatchet. I have also accidently over-shot my nail target with another hammer and the handle, near the head, struck the edge of a 2x4 and broke the hammer handle in two. The break looked very close to what you see in the photo. So, it appears to me that the handle broke from hitting a hard unmoveable object. The break look's too ragged to have been cut.
I've been in the wood working business since 1968. Most hammer and hatchet handles are made of hickory, a very tough wood. Ash is usually used in hoe, rake and shovel handles. Baseball bats are made of ash and usually break when the hitter hold's it wrong. The brand mark should be facing the hitter. This keeps the grain going in the right direction.
I heard that cow's blood was found on the borden hatchet head. It was also stated that no matter how much cleaning was done, Lizzie could not have gotten all the blood off that head and handle. Blood would have gotten "into" that wood and in the nooks and crannies between the handle and head. Besides, how could Lizzie wash off all traces of human blood while leaving cow's blood? Besides, the wood would have been wet or damp when the police found it.
I found a hatchet exactly like the Borden's at the flea market last week. I should have bought it. Same make and model.
The only way Lizzie could have broken that handle was to put a pipe extension over the handle for greater leverage.
The gilt in the wounds on Abby leads me to believe it was a new hatchet. The shallow wounds on both bodies leads me to belive it was a woman or a small framed man who did the killing and the lack of blood on Lizzie leads me to believe it wasn't Lizzie. Whoever did the killing must have taken the hatchet with them.
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nbcatlover
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Jimbo's right, though. In those pictures, the hatchet handle does look like it has been sawed.
The running joke in my family is that we have THE hatchet in our cellar. My late uncle drew a picture of a woman on the cellar wall over an old hatchet and a scythe. He always said her name was Lizzie Borden. The only drawback was my relations were still back in Sao Miguel at the time of the murders...guess we're the wrong Portuguese.
The running joke in my family is that we have THE hatchet in our cellar. My late uncle drew a picture of a woman on the cellar wall over an old hatchet and a scythe. He always said her name was Lizzie Borden. The only drawback was my relations were still back in Sao Miguel at the time of the murders...guess we're the wrong Portuguese.
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Kat
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"I found a hatchet exactly like the Borden's at the flea market last week. I should have bought it. Same make and model."--bigSteve
What was the handle made of?
Professor Dr. Wood at trial thought the handle piece was oak or ash.
1027
Q. Isn't that oak?
A. I do not know oaks very well.
Q. But you said it was oak?
A. I said I thought it was.
Q. What do you think?
A. It looks to me like an ash piece. I do not know whether it is not, though.
What was the handle made of?
Professor Dr. Wood at trial thought the handle piece was oak or ash.
1027
Q. Isn't that oak?
A. I do not know oaks very well.
Q. But you said it was oak?
A. I said I thought it was.
Q. What do you think?
A. It looks to me like an ash piece. I do not know whether it is not, though.
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1bigsteve
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It was hickory. It was very simular to a handle for a ball peen hammer except it was thicker in the area where the Borden handle snapped off. The ball peen handle would be much narrower in this area. I was paying more attention to the head. Same style and size as the Borden hatchet with the same notch in the lower part of the blade. I have seen a few out there just like this one but it's the first time I ever picked one up. I felt like I was stepping back in time. The surprising thing is it was in excellent condition. Old patina but no rust. Maybe it will be out there again this week. If it is I'll see if I can buy it.
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Kashesan
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I don't know if this possibility has been offered, sorry if it has: Put the hatchet on a paint can or something with the handle overhanging the edge, stepping up on the hatchet head with one foot, then slowly lowering all your weight onto the handle with the other. Could the handle withstand someone's entire weight on it?
"It seemed friendly enough, but it had sharp claws and a great many teeth. Alice thought it best to treat it with respect"
Lewis Carroll
Lewis Carroll
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1bigsteve
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Kashesan @ Fri Sep 09, 2005 6:24 am wrote:I don't know if this possibility has been offered, sorry if it has: Put the hatchet on a paint can or something with the handle overhanging the edge, stepping up on the hatchet head with one foot, then slowly lowering all your weight onto the handle with the other. Could the handle withstand someone's entire weight on it?
It is very possible, Kashesan. I have snapped off a perfectly good hammer handle set in a vice (I didn't like the color) by grabing it and pulling it at a 90 degree angle to the head. I light person like Lizzie would probably have to bounce on it a bit.
However, if the flat side of the blade is laying flat or parallel to the surface of the ground, the break would be splintered because of the direction of the grain. The clean looking break in the Borden hatchet indicates that the break occured during the normal use of the hatchet. Any minor splinters could have been worn away with time. On the other hand, Andrew could have cut off the handle because the bottom half could have been cracked. I haven't seen a micro-view photo of the end of that handle to tell if it was cut off or snapped off. The hatchet blade probably missed the target and the handle made contact with the target, such as the top end of a piece of kindling. I have done this myself and the head came off with very little splintering, almost as if it had been sawed off. This is a common problem with two-handed axes. That is why they make rubber rings that you can put around the handle near the head. How wood splinters depends on the direction of the force in relation to the direction of the grain. The grain in a hatchet or hammer runs parallel with the blade. That is where the wood is strongest. If the grain runs at a right angle to the direction of the blade then the head could break off much easier. Of course you might find a cheapo handle with the grain going in the wrong direction but a good quality handle will have a good grain pattern. Wood is stronger in one direction than it is in another. Wood doen't have universal strength like metal.
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Kat
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Actually, it had splinters. I can't describe how many or how jagged, but they were there at first, then lost some by trial, then while examining in court they had taken the whole piece out, but retained some splinters, but who knows what shape the little piece was in by the time the whole thing was donated.
In the Edward Rowe Snow article it looks like there are splinters, still, in the 1970's(Boston Bay Mysteries?).
I think you can check Prof. Dr.Wood at the trial.
In the Edward Rowe Snow article it looks like there are splinters, still, in the 1970's(Boston Bay Mysteries?).
I think you can check Prof. Dr.Wood at the trial.