Lizzie Borden Society Forum

I know there was some bad blood between the girls and Abby, but for how long? How much is too much? Seems to me that it was going on for a very long time. I mean, to take an axe and literally hack your stepmother and bological father to death seems to be an overkill to me for some small petty stuff.

I know Lizzie and Emma were made at their father for giving interest from a property to a family member of Abbys, but that's not enough for me to brutally axe someone to death.

What do you all think.

It's entirely possible that Emma resented Abby from the start of her relationship with Andrew. Lizzie was a small child, so she may have been indoctrinated to the same viewpoint, most likely by Emma. As the Borden girls became more socially aware, they may have felt that Andrew married beneath his social station and began to resent Abby's family as well as a result of their new found awareness. The Whitehead house transaction manifested overt resentment by Lizzie and Emma. It may have indicated that Andrew did not view Abby's family with the same disregard that Lizzie and Emma did. This could well have represented a threat to Emma and Lizzie's future inheritance, whether real or imagined, or it might have indicated that Andrew could secretly favor Abby and her family with gifts, thereby removing money or property from his estate. It may also have indicated that Andrew might make a will disfavoring Lizzie and Emma to a degree. If Andrew was aware that his daughters and his wife did not get along while he was alive, he could be certain that his daughters would disfavor his wife when he was dead. If he wanted his wife to realize anything permanent from his estate, he had to take some measures to ensure it, Emma and Lizzie certainly would not. The Whitehead property transaction might well have been the culmination of earlier fears, it was proof positive that it could happen. Little Abby's middle name was Borden, this may have seemed a bit pretentious to the Borden girls. It may have indicated what the Whitehead family aspired to.

Where did Emma get her snobbish attitude? She was still pretty young when their mother died. Andrew was frugal to the point of being tight. They both spent their whole childhood living beneath where they should or could have been living. I guess what I'm trying to say is, what would make them think they were so far above Abby and her family when actually they really weren't living a much higher standard of life then the Whiteheads were.

There may have been a good bit of social status attached to the Borden name, maybe people deferred to Emma in some ways. The difference between the Bordens and Abby's family was the Bordens had the means to live better. The attitude comes about with the realization of that. It also tends to foster misgivings about Andrew and having to contend with living beneath their means.

It's really hard to try and put yourself into their heads, and think the way they thought! We've come so far away from that time!! Makes you wonder what was going on in Andrews head, what was there about Abby that would even draw his attention to her and not someone from his own station.

Abby was very attractive when Andrew married her, and maybe the fact that she was NOT from his station was what attracted him. She may have been a practical, level-headed, down to earth woman...not some sort of snob who was worried about impressing others. They may have been a good match, and Andrew may have appreciated her many good qualities. I doubt Andrew worried much about social status.

That's true SallyG, I was trying to put myself in their shoes, if you know what I mean. I too think Andrew and Abby were happy with each other, and possibly that caused some trouble with the girls. He came up the hard way and earned what he had, so he was probably more comfortable with Abby and her family then the girls were.

I doubt that Andrew was concerned with social status in the same way as his daughters. They were concerned with social climbing, he didn't seem to aspire to that. At the same time, I'm sure the Borden name opened some doors for Andrew and he was just the type to exploit that. He may not have taken his name as seriously as everyone else did.

Class and social status were probably more of an issue back then than they are now. Even the wealthy were divided between the Old Money and the Nouveau Riche (newly rich) groups.

I think that was some of the reasons why the girls were mad at him.. I think they felt they needed to be higher up living standards. i think they felt they were living below their means. Andy I think really didn't care. He had a roof over his head, and food on the table.

Unfortunately, if the Borden daughters' argument was that they were living below their means, it had no valid premise. It was Andrew's money, not theirs, so they were certainly not living below their means. If they had an idea that Andrew was living below his means, it was only an opinion and nothing more.

Young people don't generally take to ruts, or routines as older people do. I imagine that Andrew and Abby were very set in routines, and that Lizzie probably craved lively gatherings. But, alas, it was not to be, as long as Andrew ruled the roost with his alpha hen. I know what it's like being stuck in a house day after day with boring people. I wonder if Lizzie ever went to the silent movies ? No wonder she took up with Nance, and her world for a spell. I wonder if Lizzie and Emma even attended kiddie birthday parties. Was church their only form of socializing ? No dancing ? no Halloween madness ?

Where do we get the idea that Emma was "snobbish"? A woman of her time and place didn't run out to BINGO every week after all. Many people mind their own business and live their lives. That doesn't mean they are snobs. Whether shy, low self esteem , agorophobic or just plain quiet by nature we don't have any evidence to call Emma a snob. And what evidence is their outside of gossip that Emma encouraged Lizzie to hate her household? Come on people Emma is being sentenced on no evidence here! If she was a blabbermouth who hung all her business out on the line for the neighbors what would that have done for her?

I don't think she was snobbish, but I don't think she had a lot of friends. I mean, doesn't seem she had many activities. Yes, high classed women of their time didn't run out and play bingo, but Lizzie had church activites such as teaching sunday school and the temperance movement and the right for women to vote and the like. Just doesn't seem like Emma had anything to do. Maybe she was just more of a private person where she didn't talk to much about what she was invovled with. Sometimes I wonder if Emma was jealous of Lizzie because of the things she was involved with. Just a thought.

We know she had some friends, she was away visiting them when the murder's happend. Alice, was also a friend of her's I believe. Actually, we don't really know a whole lot about her or the kind of person she was.

Alice and Emma were contemporaries in age, Lizzie was the "little sister" I imagine. Emma's testimony at the trial is odd, she was asked if the relationship between Lizzie and Alice was on "excellent" terms, and she seemed to modify that, saying they were on "good" terms. Alice was the second person Lizzie thought to call after the murders and Lizzie visited Alice the evening before the murders.