Was Lizze always off, dimwitted,slow or an act

[snokkums]

I was reading thru some old posts and came across one that was interesting to say the least and it got me to thinking about just how smart Lizzie was. I was posted by Mbhenty in 2006. Just parapharsing here but he was getting his haircut this day and the person that was sitting in the barber chair said his grandfather was Lizzie's house painter, and from what I gather the grandfather thought that lizzie was alittle off(Or aleast thats what he remembers from being a young man at the time). Like she was mentally chanllenged , or something was seriously wrong with her, like she was off.

So, I am wondering if she was alittle off or challenged before the murders and trial, or if this was the way she was after the fact.
So was she just dimwitted, slow, always off, or always off?

I am going for just always distant.

[shakiboo]

I think had there been anything really wrong with her mind, it would have been brought out even before the trial. After the trial her personality and her attitude, probably underwent a big change.

[Yooper]

I'm not sure if the defense would have argued diminished mental capacity at the time, it would involve admitting guilt, with diminished capacity as the reason for the guilt. Wasn't there some correspondence between the prosecution and the defense about the possibility of that?

If the observation by the house painter had been about the time period before the murders it might be of greater value because years of being ostracized socially might have fostered a sense of distance, if that may be inferred as his meaning. If Lizzie was known to have been a bit slow it might cause those closest to her to want to protect her by withholding certain items of interest during the trial, but that might also be Victorian social mores.

[mbhenty]

Yes, in fact the story is true.

I had an appointment to have my hair cut. When I walked into the the room I was introduced to a gentleman in his 60s having his hair cut. The barber introduced me as the fellow who lived next door to Maplecroft. It was then that this fellow, John, relayed to me the story about Lizzie Borden.

His grandfather and father were well known in fall river for many years as house painters.

He told me that when he was a boy his grandfather relayed to him the story. In a roundabout way he implied that his granddad claimed that Lizzie was not wound very tight and that his grandfather thought she was a little crazy.

Now, we must remember that this was a second hand story from grandfather to grandson. Now a story that is in my hands and passed on in the way of a forum.

We must of course take this with a grain of salt. In a courtroom it would be thrown out as hearsay.

My intention is not to circulate rumor. Gud knows, I complain more than anyone about those who do.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Was Lizzie cracked?

One thing we know for sure is that John Friar Painters were indeed Lizzie Borden't house painters.

Assumptions about Lizzie Borden's sanity or intellectual prowess have circulated for years. It is probably no mistake to claim that she was eccentric, aberrant, even queer (no puns please). And, we all can feel free to speak of a possible mental deficiency. But, in the end we must give her the benefit of the doubt, and as writers exercise responsibility.

Being such a public character, people will talk, people will write. And since Lizzie was very private about her life, we can only guess. But, we must be aware that it was that very private behavior on her part which pretext others to make stuff up, to assume, surmise and conclude. And many times these conclusion are ruthlessly inaccurately. (Like Victoria Lincoln's irresponsible assertion that Lizzie killed her family in a epileptic fit. This not only does an injustice to Lizzie, but claims that people with epilepsy are capable of murder.) Insulting to many..........no doubt.

Now, perhaps Mr Friar the painter was a very straight sort of fellow, and to him anyone who did not live like him was crazy. Look at Gothic Kids, with their black baggy clothing white make-up, and preoccupation with death. Some of the most intelligent kids I have ever met have been into Goth. But, most of the so called "common and lucid and somewhat well balanced kids think that Gothic kids are nuts.

Perhaps Lizzie was just Gothic. (?)

[snokkums]

Yes, in fact the story is true.

I had an appointment to have my hair cut. When I walked into the the room I was introduced to a gentleman in his 60s having his hair cut. The barber introduced me as the fellow who lived next door to Maplecroft. It was then that this fellow, John, relayed to me the story about Lizzie Borden.

His grandfather and father were well known in fall river for many years as house painters.

He told me that when he was a boy his grandfather relayed to him the story. In a roundabout way he implied that his granddad claimed that Lizzie was not wound very tight and that his grandfather thought she was a little crazy.

Now, we must remember that this was a second hand story from grandfather to grandson. Now a story that is in my hands and passed on in the way of a forum.

We must of course take this with a grain of salt. In a courtroom it would be thrown out as hearsay.

I never meant to call you or your people liers, and I am sorryif I implied that. I am sorry if I seemed that I implied that. I just thought that the conversation

was interesting. I am sorry if I offended you .














My intention is not to circulate rumor. Gud knows, I complain more than anyone about those who do.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Was Lizzie cracked?

One thing we know for sure is that John Friar Painters were indeed Lizzie Borden't house painters.

Assumptions about Lizzie Borden's sanity or intellectual prowess have circulated for years. It is probably no mistake to claim that she was eccentric, aberrant, even queer (no puns please). And, we all can feel free to speak of a possible mental deficiency. But, in the end we must give her the benefit of the doubt, and as writers exercise responsibility.

Being such a public character, people will talk, people will write. And since Lizzie was very private about her life, we can only guess. But, we must be aware that it was that very private behavior on her part which pretext others to make stuff up, to assume, surmise and conclude. And many times these conclusion are ruthlessly inaccurately. (Like Victoria Lincoln's irresponsible assertion that Lizzie killed her family in a epileptic fit. This not only does an injustice to Lizzie, but claims that people with epilepsy are capable of murder.) Insulting to many..........no doubt.

Now, perhaps Mr Friar the painter was a very straight sort of fellow, and to him anyone who did not live like him was crazy. Look at Gothic Kids, with their black baggy clothing white make-up, and preoccupation with death. Some of the most intelligent kids I have ever met have been into Goth. But, most of the so called "common and lucid and somewhat well balanced kids think that Gothic kids are nuts.

Perhaps Lizzie was just Gothic. (?)

[mbhenty]

YES: Sorry Snokkums. I did not mean anything about you. I was not talking about you when I said anything about spreading rumors.

Please do not take offense or feel any guilt. Believe me, I was not attacking you or your post.

Your post is a very valid one. A good topic.

The ground rules I was setting pertains to professional writers and people who make public their ideas in books, magazines or newspapers.

The topic of whether Lizzie was nuts or not is a good one and should be discussed on a forum such as this.

I did not mean to attack you or your post, and please do not take it that way.

When I spoke of rumors I was including myself in particular.

So, please carry on.

Good topic..............and one which need airing our.

Capire?

[shakiboo]

That's one of the things that makes it hard to know anything about Lizzie, today. Everyone had an opinion, and whether it was based on fact or just what that person thought, could put a whole different slant to it. for instance, the painter might have come to his conclusions of her being not quite right because she wanted him to paint, what-ever he was going to paint for her, in a different way then he would have done it. ie. "that gal wants the trim painted blue, who in their right mind wants blue for a trim?" If you see what I mean. It's really cool that you got to talk with some one who actually came in to contact with her, Michael. Even though, as you say, it would only be hearsay, it still had to be exciting!

[snokkums]

But I am wondering if she was alittle off before the trial. Does anyone have any accounts of people thinking she was alittle different.

[mbhenty]

Yes, that's an easy one Snokkums.

I had a couple of friends who were heroin addicts.

Of course their behavior at times was that of mad men, an insane person. They behaved anything but normal. If I didn't know that they were stoned, I would think they were a bit insane. (though, it is difficult to tell one way or the other, especially if one is stoned themselves, in which case the were quite normal)

Imagine stabbing yourself with a needle and pumping an opium into your veins, then going to work, to public functions, to church, etc. and trying to be taken seriously.

Well, that is precisely what happened to Lizzie Borden.

Doc Bowen was pumping her up with morphine......an opium and cousin to heroin.

She was probably stoned most of the time.

This begs the question.........was Lizzie addicted? If so, for how long?

If she was an addict, she could have been on morphine for a long, long time. This would definitely explain her unorthodox behavior during and well after the trail.

Morphine was an over the counter drug and was not under government control until 1915 or there-and-abouts. In the late 1800s Bayer introduced heroin, which is twice as powerful as morphine and a synthetic version of the drug. Imagine popping a couple of Bayer. Move over ecstasy.

Thus, perhaps Lizzie Borden was not crazy.

Just stoned.

[patsy]

Seems plausible that she may have been stoned a lot of the time since heroin and other drugs were easy to get, and she certainly had a lot to face in the world and drugs might have made it easier to live if she were addicted.

If people had a tendency to make judgements by analyzing demeanor such as they do in our day, as evidenced in many court trials, then Lizzie may have been doomed and labeled from day one.

Like it was said upthread we'll never know but it does give a lot to think about. Good question, Snokkums. How fascinating to talk to the grandson of someone who knew Lizzie, Mbhenty.

I thought Lincoln's idea that she had an epileptic seizure was interesting yet I didn't buy it because I couldn't imagine it lasting long enough to kill two people over the amount of time in which they say the murders happened. I remember seeing films in class showing a person having a grande mal seizure and getting quite violent, so it may be possible to kill someone during an episode and not remember it I suppose.

[snokkums]

I think that maybe she was just alittle standoffish. I know I am like that, takes me awhile to get used to people. I wonder if that was the way Lizzie was.

[mbhenty]

Yes Patsy: On an historical and personal level, it is pretty cool talking to Mr. Frair about his grandfather and Lizzie.

It would have been very informative for anyone doing research on the Borden case in the early 60s to talk to town folks in fall river about the Bordens, and walk away with considerable interesting and empirical information.

When Radin wrote his book LIZZIE BORDEN THE UNTOLD STORY, Lizzie was dead only 34 years and it was truly Untold. There was only one angle on the story and that was how did she do it. That is to say, Radin was the first to write objectively on the case and to use first hand information of citizens in fall river and mention them in a book.

Edmund Pearson was the first to visit fall river and write about the case, followed by Radin about 25 years later. But, Though Pearson may have spoken to people who knew Lizzie Borden, his mind was made up that Lizzie was guilty. How much Radin was influenced by those he spoke to can only be guessed.

All-in-all, there are very few second or third hand accounts about Lizzie from those who remember, and none by her contemporaries.

Thought the old house painter found Lizzie a little wacked out, it begs the question to why no one else has mentioned it. Perhaps, no one dug deep enough? Perhaps it is not true and just one man's partial observation.

[mbhenty]

I can be pretty "standoffish" myself.

But, it has nothing to do about getting use to people. After the first few sentences out of someone's mouth, and probably less than a minute, I have painted a pretty solid opinion, expectation and portrayal of what they are all about. But this is not about me. It's about Lizzie Broden.

And in Lizzie's case, her "standoffish" manner was not what it appeared. She was not being defensive but offensive. It had noting to do with being shy or reserved. It was about keeping control and self assurance. "Accept me for who I am or take a hike," could be her motto.

Getting use to people did not figure in Lizzie's approach to those around her. It was about those around her getting use to her. And, if you can't, then she probably felt that you should "take a hike."

And, that's my opinion. And if you don't like it you can take a hike. The only difference between Lizzie and me is that I will probably offer to hike with you.

[mbhenty]

Don't take it personal anyone..........it's not.

[diana]

Here are a few comments published around the time of the murders.

"Did you ever know Lizzie Borden to show any indications of insanity?"
"No, sir."
"Nor of mental hysteria common to women?"
"Not a bit of it; there was nothing of the kind. Lizzie was not that sort of a girl". (Interview with Dr. Handy, New Bedford Evening Standard, August 10, 1892:1)
-----
Henrietta Morse, a cousin of John Morse, “was loud in her denunciations of the manner in which the character of John V. Morse and Lizzie Borden had been handled.” She said Lizzie’s “entire life had been characterized by the calm and cool demeanour which is considered evidence of guilt to the police.” (Quotes from Kent: p.48)

Lizzie appears to have been a very blunt-speaking person and probably owned her father's Yankee grit and desire to maintain composure in public. She might have thought it was the road of a lesser person to be unable to face questioning when the police suggested she wait until later.

But even though she was cool with the police, Lizzie let herself go with her friends and close neighbors Mrs. Churchill and Alice Russell. Both of them testified she was upset on the morning of the murders. Bridget also said Lizzie was crying that day, (Trial, 1593+) and Mrs. Holmes testified that Lizzie shed tears when viewing her father’s body in the casket. (Trial, 1505)

Robinson's comments during his closing argument may be as close as we're going to get to the real Lizzie. Robinson knows Harrington’s comments at trial regarding Lizzie's demeanour are a negative factor, so he addresses this in his closing:
"Lizzie, who undoubtedly speaks in just that positive way, you saw, when the police asked her about where she was and what she was doing, spoke positively. There are a good many people living in New England who will do the same. They know when they are insulted, and are free in expressing their minds, and sometimes do so too freely and talk too much ….” (Closing arguments, trial)

[snokkums]

Here are a few comments published around the time of the murders.

"Did you ever know Lizzie Borden to show any indications of insanity?"
"No, sir."
"Nor of mental hysteria common to women?"
"Not a bit of it; there was nothing of the kind. Lizzie was not that sort of a girl". (Interview with Dr. Handy, New Bedford Evening Standard, August 10, 1892:1)
-----
Henrietta Morse, a cousin of John Morse, “was loud in her denunciations of the manner in which the character of John V. Morse and Lizzie Borden had been handled.” She said Lizzie’s “entire life had been characterized by the calm and cool demeanour which is considered evidence of guilt to the police.” (Quotes from Kent: p.48)

Lizzie appears to have been a very blunt-speaking person and probably owned her father's Yankee grit and desire to maintain composure in public. She might have thought it was the road of a lesser person to be unable to face questioning when the police suggested she wait until later.

Midwersterns are kind of like the way LIzzie was, or at least I can be. Just alittle stand-offish until I get to know you, then I loosen up. I amassuming that Lizzie was the same way. Escpcially after the trial. Think she was mistrustful of people after the tiral.

But even though she was cool with the police, Lizzie let herself go with her friends and close neighbors Mrs. Churchill and Alice Russell. Both of them testified she was upset on the morning of the murders. Bridget also said Lizzie was crying that day, (Trial, 1593+) and Mrs. Holmes testified that Lizzie shed tears when viewing her father’s body in the casket. (Trial, 1505)

Robinson's comments during his closing argument may be as close as we're going to get to the real Lizzie. Robinson knows Harrington’s comments at trial regarding Lizzie's demeanour are a negative factor, so he addresses this in his closing:
"Lizzie, who undoubtedly speaks in just that positive way, you saw, when the police asked her about where she was and what she was doing, spoke positively. There are a good many people living in New England who will do the same. They know when they are insulted, and are free in expressing their minds, and sometimes do so too freely and talk too much ….” (Closing arguments, trial)

[Yooper]

Here are a few comments published around the time of the murders.

"Did you ever know Lizzie Borden to show any indications of insanity?"
"No, sir."
"Nor of mental hysteria common to women?"
"Not a bit of it; there was nothing of the kind. Lizzie was not that sort of a girl". (Interview with Dr. Handy, New Bedford Evening Standard, August 10, 1892:1)
-----
Henrietta Morse, a cousin of John Morse, “was loud in her denunciations of the manner in which the character of John V. Morse and Lizzie Borden had been handled.” She said Lizzie’s “entire life had been characterized by the calm and cool demeanour which is considered evidence of guilt to the police.” (Quotes from Kent: p.48)

Lizzie appears to have been a very blunt-speaking person and probably owned her father's Yankee grit and desire to maintain composure in public. She might have thought it was the road of a lesser person to be unable to face questioning when the police suggested she wait until later.

But even though she was cool with the police, Lizzie let herself go with her friends and close neighbors Mrs. Churchill and Alice Russell. Both of them testified she was upset on the morning of the murders. Bridget also said Lizzie was crying that day, (Trial, 1593+) and Mrs. Holmes testified that Lizzie shed tears when viewing her father’s body in the casket. (Trial, 1505)

Robinson's comments during his closing argument may be as close as we're going to get to the real Lizzie. Robinson knows Harrington’s comments at trial regarding Lizzie's demeanour are a negative factor, so he addresses this in his closing:
"Lizzie, who undoubtedly speaks in just that positive way, you saw, when the police asked her about where she was and what she was doing, spoke positively. There are a good many people living in New England who will do the same. They know when they are insulted, and are free in expressing their minds, and sometimes do so too freely and talk too much ….” (Closing arguments, trial)

Yes, I expect Lizzie meant every word she said at the inquest.

[snokkums]

I would have loved to have heard what she said to her friends and close neighbors. That would have been a hoot to hear. Bet she was ripping on the police department!