Lizzie Borden Society Forum

We know that Andrew was a Quaker at one time. I am very, very curious to know what happened? And what was a Quaker? What were their beliefs?

I theorize that his Quaker upbringing (if he was raised in his home as such) stuck with him all his life and could explain why he was such a plain, simple man. Though he had been easily dismissed as a "Scrooge", I tend to think he really wasn't one. It was more how his Quaker beliefs stuck to him.

Remember when his hearse was on its way to Oak Grove cemetery, and the businessmen standing along the route took off or tipped their hats to him? I'd think that was quite a tribute. (This is in The Lizzie Borden Sourcebook. I think it speaks to his character. The funeral was private; I have a feeling it might have been quite populous with his peers had it not been. (I also think there would have been a ton of people with just morbid curiousity as well - like me. )

I found this postcard a long time ago and kept hanging on to it, hoping I'd some day do an article on Andrew and his Quaker roots. But I don't got nothin'.

I used to think the reason Andrew was not a Quaker any more was because there wasn't a meeting house in Fall River. This was at least at one time Friends' Church on North Main Street in Fall River. Is it still standing? I'm gonna vote 'no'. I've been there several times and never saw it. But then, I must say every time I go to Fall River, tho I love it, my husband and I get soooo lost there.

It might be important to figure out why Andrew went to the Central Congregational Church. I sometimes get that one mixed up with First Congregational - not by sight, but in the Borden saga. Central is the one he bought a pew in, then left the church over some money thing with another parishioner? Did he attend the First Congregational? Is that the one he was going to when he was courting Abby? Yer gonna send me reading, ain't ya?

The postcard could be from the early 1900's. A total guess. But it isn't a "made in Germany" card. The postage it asks for is one cent. It's unused, dang it.

Some of the picture looks like it was drawn in and colored. It has a glossy finish. There's at least one church to the left. This could help with location.

Any thoughts at all, any theories, any legitimate facts, are totally welcome. You guys are all sharp. Whattya thinkin'?

Yes Augusta.

The Friends church no longer exists.......nor does a Quaker Church and religion exist in fall river today.

The Friends church stood on North main street almost directly across the street from the First Baptist Church (which still stands today) and a little down from Sargents Department Store. It actually stood on the YMCA property today. The tower in the background is The BMC Durfee High School. The church sat between Cherry Street to the north and Pine Street to the south on the east side of North Main.

Below are two photos of the First Baptist Church in fall river.

I post it to show the changes over the years.

Missing is the wonderful spikee spire and some of the column caps.

The Friends church was directly across the street and Sargents Department Store was across the street to the left of the church.

Thanks for posting the First Baptist Church photos, mb. I enjoyed them. I've never seen the old one before. You're right - what a change.

Dr. Bowen went to the First Baptist Church.

Thanks too for posting where the Friends church was located. Okay. I know where that is. Neat to know where Sergeant's was too.

Maybe 10 years ago, I saw an article in one of your papers out there about a Quaker cemetery being vandalized. I think the article said it was located in Westport? I remember it saying that some of the headstones didn't have names on them, because the Quakers were very unassuming people. I was quite impressed by that.

Yes, Augusta:

The Quaker population in fall river must have been really small.

Not sure which cemetery you are talking about, which was vandalized. There are two Quaker Cemeteries in Westport. One borders the cemetery where Alice Russell is buried and the other is near the Westport High School, both on Main Road, Westport.

The Quaker Cemetery in fall river is not very well known. Most Fall Riverites don't even know it's there. It sits in the North End not far from the North end burial grounds at the foot of Hood street. I have posted a couple of maps below in different sizes so you can get an idea where it is.

The SECOND map shows the Friends Cemetery in the lower left hand corner of the photo as a little patch of grass. The clearing above is the North End Burial Ground. The LAST photo shows you the actual Friends Cemetery. You can just make out a little row of tombstones. Not many. As you mentioned, the Quakers did not believe in tombstones and found the practice ostentatious. This cemetery could very well be full of unmarked graves.

The FIRST photo is just so you can get an idea where everything is. In the upper left hand corner, you can make out the North End Cemetery as opposed to the Oak Grove Cemetery which is the lower middle right of the photo.

I must admit to knowing very little to nothing about the Friends Cemetery in fall river. But if you go googling it you will find a blog which mentions that houses were built over the grave site. Not true. Not correct. The cemetery has always been the same size it is today. You you study old maps, as I have, you will discover that the size of the cemetery has always been the same. Don't believe everything you read. (unless I write it )





(Sorry. The forum is under repair. It is having problems. I had trouble posting this post and see that it post twice.)

Yes, Augusta:

The Quaker population in fall river must have been really small.

Not sure which cemetery you are talking about, which was vandalized. There are two Quaker Cemeteries in Westport. One borders the cemetery where Alice Russell is buried and the other is near the Westport High School, both on Main Road, Westport.

The Quaker Cemetery in fall river is not very well known. Most Fall Riverites don't even know it's there. It sits in the North End not far from the North end burial grounds at the foot of Hood street. I have posted a couple of maps below in different sizes so you can get an idea where it is.

The SECOND map shows the Friends Cemetery in the lower left hand corner of the photo as a little patch of grass. The clearing above is the North End Burial Ground. The LAST photo shows you the actual Friends Cemetery. You can just make out a little row of tombstones. Not many. As you mentioned, the Quakers did not believe in tombstones and found the practice ostentatious. This cemetery could very well be full of unmarked graves.

The FIRST photo is just so you can get an idea where everything is. In the upper left hand corner, you can make out the North End Cemetery as opposed to the Oak Grove Cemetery which is the lower middle right of the photo.

I must admit to knowing very little to nothing about the Friends Cemetery in fall river. But if you go googling it you will find a blog which mentions that houses were built over the grave site. Not true. Not correct. The cemetery has always been the same size it is today. You you study old maps, as I have, you will discover that the size of the cemetery has always been the same. Don't believe everything you read. (unless I write it )

Yes,

One more thing Augusta. There are no accounts of Andrew Borden ever being a Quaker, though the first Bordens to arrive in the US in the middle 1600s were Quakers, or at least one, John Borden of Quaker Hill, was of Quaker persuasion . But, that was almost 200 years before Andrew was born. Historical accounts do record the Bordens had their early roots in Quakerism.

Nope, do not know where Quaker Hill is located. There's a Quaker hill in Conn. Portsmouth R.I. where the Borden's first settled, and I'm sure in many other towns in New England.

The closest Quaker building to fall river that I can think of would be the Swansea Friends Meeting House, on Prospect Street in Somerset. At one time that part of Somerset was part of Swansea; thus Swansea Friends Meeting in Somerset. Behind the building I believe there's a small cemetery; haven't been that way in a while. It is a sure thing that this building has had many extensions and modifications since 1708 and was much smaller.

The building has fallen into disrepair and some crazy person has told the town it would cost 800,000+ to bring it back. From what I see, work can be done for a fraction of that.

Below is a site and a photo from that site of a picture of an old guy and other artifacts stored at the Meeting house.

Looks somewhat like Andrew........does it not?



Sometimes it may be what we want to see.






http://www.wickedlocal.com/swansea/arch ... use?foto=1

Wow - you know so much about the history of that area. Thank you much for the interesting things you took the time to post.

800K to fix the meeting house? Maybe Mr. Dube owns it and wants to turn it into a Friendly B & B. Oh ... "Friendly"? I guess not.

So there's like no evidence that Andrew Borden was a Quaker himself? That's amazing. All these years I've read it. Him coming from Quaker stock does not a Quaker Andrew Borden make.

Yes, that old painting does resemble Andrew.

Tipping one's hat in passing was a sign of acknowledgement and not so much admiration. It's still done in parts of Europe, and it means a little more than a nod, but not much.

I would suspect that Andrew was a Quaker because his parents were Quakers, and that he went to the First Congregational Church because it was convenient and expected of him. Andrew was first and foremost a businessman, and a lot of business is done before and after the church service the world over. Andrew did what he had to do to make money.

I agree that it's all too easy to characterize him as a skinflint. He seems to have been generous with his daughters at times and then not in other respects. To me, he appears to be a man who attempts to be loving when he remembers to be, but who does not actually have a loving nature. Plenty of those around, even today!

Interesting post, Lizbeth. So the hat tipping by businessmen in Fall River to Andrew's hearse may not have been 'all that'. The paper at the time sounded like it was.

I think he did have a good reputation as a businessman. I read that he never owed anyone anything (except one loan for something). And I believe he had a rep as being honest.

But he did do stuff like sell eggs at his house (and vinegar too, didn't he?). And when his father died, and they were settling the estate, Andrew made his sister pay him a paltry sum - like a dollar-something - for something having to do with something she got from the will (I'm sorry, I can't remember the specifics of it). And they had Lizzie going what sounds like all over town telling "I Hate Abby" stories. Stories like those make for good lunchtime conversation.

I very much agree with you that Andrew has been plastered with the Scrooge image unfairly. A few things that have surfaced about him show him to be not the penny pincher writers have depicted him as.

I also believe that Abby got a raw deal in the publicity department, too. The only things negative I've read about her were stuff Lizzie had said. There are some really interesting quotes from people in the papers of the day taken right after Abby's murder. Mrs. Bowen, Seabury's wife, was a good friend of hers (that's another thing - it was always said that Abby had no friends and never went out - both note true).

I feel sorriest of all for Abby. I don't think Andrew took any of 'the girls' crap. But I think Abby did. I believe she was a good person and she just got mistreated by 'the girls' and in the end was murdered most foully - and even saw her murderer probably.

Back to Andrew being a Quaker, y'all have probably read that he bought a pew at church but then stopped going because of some monetary disagreement with one of the parishioners? Does anyone have any info on that? I think that's all I ever read about it - just like one sentence.