About uncle John’s behaviours (part 4)

[Franz]

This is from Morse’s Inquest Testimony (pp. 96-98):

Q: Have you kept up a correspondence with the Bordens?
…
A: Emma.
Q: Never with any of the rest of them?
A: I used to have a letter occasionally from my brother in law.
…
Q: You do not think you had written announcing your visit at this time?
A: I dont think I did…Mr. Borden, when I was over here sometime in July, that I speak of, wanted to know if I knew of a man he could get on his farm, to take charge of it. I told him I did not know. I would see. When I wrote him I knew of a man I thought would suit him, I would send him over. He wrote back to me he would rather I would wait until I saw him. I have his letter in my pocket, if you want to see it.
Q: What was the date of that letter? You may refresh your memory. If you have no objections, I will see it.
(Witness produces the letter dated July 25, 1892.)
Q: Have you any objection to me keeping this?
A: No Sire. I would not like it lost, because it was the last one I ever had from him.

According to this testimony, Morse used to have a letter only “occasionally” from Andrew. Just about 10 days before the murder happened, they exchanged a correspondence. Certainly, this could have been a pure coincidence, there could have been nothing of strange. However, I think there are many questions to be answered:

1. If I am not mistaken, Morse’s Inquest Testimony took place the August 9, 1892. So my first question is this: did Morse bring the letter with him when he arrived on August 3rd? or did someone bring it to him as an evidence to justify his visit, after the murders had happened?

2. If he brought the letter with him the August 3rd, I wonder: was it necessary to bring such a letter with him for the travel and for his eventual discussion with Andrew about the farm affair? Did Morse need to demonstrate the letter to Andrew, while saying to him: “My visit is well motivated. Look, this is your letter. Now let’s talk about the farm affair”?

3. If I am not mistaken, the envelop was never mentioned in any document. If there wasn't the envelop, how could the police have been sure that the letter had been actually sent from Fall River?

4. Did the police do any handwriting analysis? If not, how could they have been sure that the letter was written by Andrew himself?

5. The District Attorney Knowlton, curiously, promptly appropriated the letter, causing it to effectively disappear from history. If I am not wrong, the letter was not mentioned during the trial. Could we speculate that the letter had disappeared before the trial began?

6. The last but not the least question: how did the letter disappear? Did Knowlton lose it accidently? Or was it stolen and then destroyed by someone?

If we could disprove the authenticity of the letter allegedly written by Andrew, we could (almost) prove Morse’s guilt. Unfortunately, it disappeared. Morse produced the letter and only asked Knowlton if he wanted to see it; but Knowlton, in my opinion surprisingly, asked if he could keep the letter that apparently wasn’t important at all for the investigation. Morse didn’t object, but he said immediately: “I would not like it lost, because it was the last one I ever had from him”, underlining (falsely?) in this manner the sentimental value of the letter to him.

In my opinion, it should not be impossible that Morse, being afraid that the letter could betray him, requested privately to Knowlton its restitution. And Knowlton, who was strongly suspecting Lizzie at that moment, agreed, considering (naively?) Morse’s behavior as a human action.

[PossumPie]

The problem with your theory is it is full of "IFs" there are 12 times you use the word "IF" "If" means a condition or supposition. An ASSUMPTION. " If this happened...."
A good theory wouldn't have so many suppositions. remember Occam's Razor the simplest explanation is usually correct. I'm not trying to knock your theories, just try to base them more on facts.

[Franz]

PossumPie, I rewrite my post in a more simple way:

1. Without reliable source, we could say that it was possible (50%) that Morse brought the letter with him when he arrived on August 3rd. So my question: why did he bring such an unnecessary letter with him for the travel and for his eventual discussion with Andrew about the farm affair?

Even if it was that someone brought the letter to him as an evidence to justify his visit, after the murders had happened, I can continue as well my observation:

2. It was not mentioned that Morse produced the letter with its original envelop.

3. It was not mentioned that the police did any handwriting analysis on the lettere.

So I question its authenticity. In other words, I am not obliged to believe its authenticity.

[PossumPie]

There was no need to get suspicious of the letter....It was a simple letter about a need for help on the farm. No smoking gun, no "I hate your guts" just a letter. I don't keep envelopes when I receive letters, I throw them out. Why do handwriting analysis? everyone accepted that Mr. Borden wrote it. In short, it was a letter plain and simple. I'm not how you see evil dark purposes in the letter.

[Allen]

Rebello page 70:

Throughout his life, Morse traveled east during the summer and winter months visiting Fall River; New Bedford; Warren, Rhode Island; and Boston. He maintained a small boat in New Bedford, and he visited friends and relatives. While in New Bedford, he would spend time at the marble shop of ex-Mayor Thomas Thompson discussing the existence of life after death. John Morse was fond of fishing and had an interest in having his fortune told. He oftentimes told the story of the gypsy in Hastings who refused to tell his fortune, "You don't want it told." It was sometime after this, the Bordens were murdered.

page 76:

"John V. Morse, a prosperous farmer who lives south of Hastings, was in the city last Monday. Mr. Morse is the uncle of Lizzie Borden who as most of our readers know is now on trial for the murder of her parents in Fall River." Mills County Tribune, December 15, 1892.

"John Morse, who for some time past has been visiting friends in the East and has been in some manner mixed up in the great Borden murder case, has returned to his native land." Mills County Tribune, December 15, 1892.

"Uncle John Morse has returned from his long visit East. He says Iowa is the best place to be." Malvern Leader, December 15, 1892.

"A horse attached to a buggy belonging to John Oliver, of New Bedford, broke from it's owner, Monday [June 19, 1893], and dashed through Rusell's Mills and Apponegansett. Several unsuccessful attempts were made to stop it's career, but not until it reached the 'Head' did anyone succeed in catching it, which was done by no less a personage than the noted John Vinnicum Morse. " Fall River Weekly News, June 21, 1893:5.

-------------------------------------------

Page 77:

"Mr. John V. Morse has returned to Hastings, after spending the winter in California." Glenwood Opinion, March 3, 1898.

"Mr. John V. Morse has returned to Hastings, Iowa. He had been East for about a year spending a considerable part of the time in New Bedford, [ Massachusetts]." Fall River Evening News, November 20, 1899.

"John Morse and J.C. Anderson have returned from a trip thru Nebraska and Kansas, driving overland. The two enjoyed themselves as much as when they were boys." Glenwood Opinion, June 14, 1900:8.

"The genial countenance of our old friend John Morse is once more seen upon the streets of Hastings after several months visit in the East." Glenwood Opinion, November 26, 1900:8.

"Hastings: John Morse started last week for his old home in, Fall River, Mass, He was accompanied as far as New York by Jamie Chapin, who will spend the summer there with relatives." Mills County Tribune, May 7, 1903.

"John Morse left here for Boston last week and as usual, when John goes, the weather changes." Glenwood Opinion, February 23, 1905:8.

"John V. Morse and Amos R. Caswell, a resident of New Bedford, purchased a lot in Fairhaven, Massachusetts, from George H. Howland on October 24, 1906. (Registry of Deeds, New Bedford, Massachusetts, book 267 and page 267)

"If anyone should ask why we are having this cold snap, just tell them John Morse has gone back to Boston." Glenwood Opinion. April 22, 1909.

John V. Morse signed his will on February 20, 1912. (Probate records. will)

"Our old friend, John Morse, has been on the sick list this past week and sorry to note that at present writing, he is little, if any, improved. His many friends here hope for an early change for the better." Malvern Leader. February 22, 1912.

"Uncle John Morse continues very poorly at the home of W.E. VanAusdale, and on Friday night, Dr. Bridges, an Omaha specialist, came down town to examine him. Miss Anna Morse, a teacher in the Minneapolis schools, came in Friday to be with her uncle." Mills County Tribune, February 26, 1912:1.

John Vinnicum Morse died in Hastings, Iowa, on March 1, 1912.

[Allen]

Obituary John Morse March 4, 1912

[Allen]

Mills County Tribune Hastings, Iowa December 23, 1897.

[Allen]

Mills County Tribune, November 24, 1908.

[Allen]

Glenwood Opinion, April 30, 1908.

[Allen]

Mills County Tribune, November, 11, 1906.

[Allen]

Mills County Tribune, January 22, 1913.

[Allen]

Mills County Tribune, November 22, 1910.

[Allen]

Mills County Tribune, November 11, 1909

[Allen]

Mills County Tribune, December 4, 1911.

[Allen]

Mills County Tribune, March 29, 1907.

[Harry]

THANKS, Allen for sharing all those articles.

I've been searching a long time for a news item I once read. It involved John driving a wagon and as he drove along he tossed out coins to the children on the side of the road. Can't remember where or even when I read it. I'll keep on looking.

[PossumPie]

Thanks for the Morse articles! Sadly, they don't shed any light on your theory that he was in on the murders...please give me some motives.

[NancyDrew]

I'm confused, PossumPie. Your comment was directed towards Allen? I didn't think she thought that Morse had anything to do with the murders. She is certainly the most well verse of anyone here, in terms of facts and hard evidence. I thought that it was her opinion Lizzie acted alone. Am I wrong?

[PossumPie]

I'm confused, PossumPie. Your comment was directed towards Allen? I didn't think she thought that Morse had anything to do with the murders. She is certainly the most well verse of anyone here, in terms of facts and hard evidence. I thought that it was her opinion Lizzie acted alone. Am I wrong?

You're right Nancy Drew, she lost her avitar, and I have been discussing Morse's motive on another thread with Franz, got the two threads mixed up

[Franz]

Allen, thank you very much for your postings.

If I remember well, you cited in another thread the serial killer Dennis Rader. He killed many people but meanwhile he "was a member of Christ Lutheran Church and had been elected president of the Congregation Council. He was also a Cub Scout leader" (from Wikipedia). If his crime were never discovered, how do the people think about him and what would be his obituary?

In my opinion, uncle John's behaviours were very very suspicious and we must face this directly.

Thank you again for your postings.

[Allen]

Yes, Dennis Rader was a serial killer. He also had a motive. There are no motiveless crimes. Serial killers do it for the thrill and the pleasure it brings to them to take another persons life. They become addicted to that feeling and that is why they continue to kill. It fulfills a need within them. That is their motive. Morse had no motive. Morse also didn't just happen to be in the area at the time of the murders. This was a purpose of posting those articles. There are many more I did not post. He spent a lot of time in those areas over the course of his life. He spent a lot of time visiting relatives and friends and traveling around. It's what he did. This was nothing out of the ordinary. He never lived alone. He rarely even lacked for a travel companion. And if these newspaper accounts are correct he was not the unkind, uncaring, old miser some people think he was either. For several years the local newspapers of his home town reported on Morse's movements and never had an unkind word. In light of what is known about his behavior I don't see any of the points you list as suspicious at all. We can go through every mole hill trying to push up a mountain but that doesn't give motive. It doesn't even give opportunity. There is no proof Morse hired anyone. It's a nice theory when looked at as opinion only, but it doesn't hold any water with proof. For example, the "very theatrical" exclamation you use as proof of his bad acting is just how they actually spoke during that era. In the one newspaper account they used the phrase "shuffle off this mortal coil." Shakespearean no?

[Allen]

And he didn't just 'happen' to go visiting relatives when he was in town. Visiting people is something he did on a regular basis.

[Franz]

In light of what is known ... For example, the "very theatrical" exclamation you use as proof of his bad acting is just how they actually spoke during that era. In the one newspaper account they used the phrase "shuffle off this mortal coil." Shakespearean no?

1. "In light of what is known", exactly, can we prove Lizzie's pecuniary motive in light of what is known? What is known for this issue? That premise affair which happened 5 years earlier? I certainly agree that her alleged motive is possible, even probable, but a probable speculation remains always a speculation. A specultaion doesn't become a proved fact only because of its probability.

2. Morse's phrase was pronounced in a special moment. And in my opinion, in that tragical moment, he might have said something different (certainly, what I am telling is subjective.)

[Franz]

Allen, the Borden case is an unsolved case. Many suspect - with many reasons - that Lizzie was the killer, but her guilt has not been proved. Meanwhile, we have another very suspicious character - Morse. I am not the only one who suspect him. In fact in the past 120 years, many persons suspected him. In this case, I think that we must face directly his suspicous behaviours, right?

I think that Lizzie was most probably innocent, but a number of facts are against her. I never want to cancel these facts. What I have been doing is to try to find an explanation.

Even if I thought Lizzie was guilty, and if find Morse's behaviours suspicious, I must face it and try to find explanations as well, right?

[Yooper]

John Morse's behavior was not suspicious enough for the authorities to suspect him at the time. They had all the same information we have. If Morse's behavior was as suspicious as Franz suggests, why did the authorities not arrest him instead of Lizzie? They would have been more than happy to pin the murders on a man rather than a woman. His alibi was airtight and he had no motive. Morse did not kill the Bordens.

[Smudgeman]

If you find John's behavior suspicious, why do you not find Lizzie's behavior suspicious? You casts doubt on everyone else but Lizzie because you want her to be innocent to fit your theories. I am not convinced. You have your work cut out for you.

[PossumPie]

Franz, I've asked you this multiple times in multiple ways....What is Morse's Possible motive? As someone else said, you discount the mountains of suspicious behavior, contradictory statements, and outright lies by Lizzie, but you cast suspicion on Morse b/c he knew where he was at a certain time!!! If you could give me some motive, I have given you a possible motive for Lizzie....She got money, more money, and lots and lots of money, to spend anyway she saw fit for the rest of her life! Wow, motive enough for me. We see no motive that Morse could have. He inherited nothing, got no property, there was good will between him and the Bordens, he visited them for years even though he was no longer related to them. If there was any coldness it was between him and his only two relatives in that house. Lizzie and Emma. And that was more just disinterest, certainly not hate!

[Allen]

John Morse's behavior was not suspicious enough for the authorities to suspect him at the time. They had all the same information we have. If Morse's behavior was as suspicious as Franz suggests, why did the authorities not arrest him instead of Lizzie? They would have been more than happy to pin the murders on a man rather than a woman. His alibi was airtight and he had no motive. Morse did not kill the Bordens.

Everyone agrees that getting a conviction against a woman at that time was extremely difficult. Why would the police focus on a woman if there was a viable male suspect in John Morse? Or anyone else? It's because they actually believed that Lizzie did it. They followed the available evidence and this was their conclusion. There was evidence in motive, opportunity, and means. And in her behavior at the time which did arouse much suspicion. Anyone that believes the police focused on Lizzie and did not look at other suspects, for whatever reason, must ask themselves why they would do that if getting a conviction against a woman was that difficult. Why would you pick the least likely suspect to gain a conviction on purpose? That's just not logical. If they just wanted to grab a suspect to clear the case and satisfy the public they would have picked a man. They would have been looking for any reason to suspect any man before they would a woman. They went with the evidence. And it pointed to Lizzie.

[Franz]

John Morse's behavior was not suspicious enough for the authorities to suspect him at the time. They had all the same information we have. If Morse's behavior was as suspicious as Franz suggests, why did the authorities not arrest him instead of Lizzie? They would have been more than happy to pin the murders on a man rather than a woman. His alibi was airtight and he had no motive. Morse did not kill the Bordens.

I think the authorities committed a huge error: Morse's suspicious behaviours didn't draw enough attention of the police because of his convincing alibi. The police didn't consider the possibility that Morse could be the organizer of the double murder, so they suspected too soon only Lizzie. If the police, among other eventual investigations onto Morse, did a handwriting analysis of the letter allegedly written by Andrew to Morse and produced by the latter to justify his visit to Fall River, maybe they would have had some interesting discovery, who knows?

[Franz]

If you find John's behavior suspicious, why do you not find Lizzie's behavior suspicious? You casts doubt on everyone else but Lizzie because you want her to be innocent to fit your theories. I am not convinced. You have your work cut out for you.

1. Lizzie's some behaviours were certainly questionable, I never denied this, but I have been trying to give an explanation to these behaviours. I have still a long way to go.

2. Please avoid any exaggeration in what you say, I cast "doubt on everyone else"? Not at all! I suspect only Morse.

3. I don't want to convince you. You are always you, I am always me.

[Franz]

John Morse's behavior was not suspicious enough for the authorities to suspect him at the time. They had all the same information we have. If Morse's behavior was as suspicious as Franz suggests, why did the authorities not arrest him instead of Lizzie? They would have been more than happy to pin the murders on a man rather than a woman. His alibi was airtight and he had no motive. Morse did not kill the Bordens.

Everyone agrees that getting a conviction against a woman at that time was extremely difficult. Why would the police focus on a woman if there was a viable male suspect in John Morse? Or anyone else? It's because they actually believed that Lizzie did it. They followed the available evidence and this was their conclusion. There was evidence in motive, opportunity, and means. And in her behavior at the time which did arouse much suspicion. Anyone that believes the police focused on Lizzie and did not look at other suspects, for whatever reason, must ask themselves why they would do that if getting a conviction against a woman was that difficult. Why would you pick the least likely suspect to gain a conviction on purpose? That's just not logical. If they just wanted to grab a suspect to clear the case and satisfy the public they would have picked a man. They would have been looking for any reason to suspect any man before they would a woman. They went with the evidence. And it pointed to Lizzie.

Morse's excellent alibi deceived the police.

[Smudgeman]

If you find John's behavior suspicious, why do you not find Lizzie's behavior suspicious? You casts doubt on everyone else but Lizzie because you want her to be innocent to fit your theories. I am not convinced. You have your work cut out for you.

1. Lizzie's some behaviours were certainly questionable, I never denied this, but I have been trying to give an explanation to these behaviours. I have still a long way to go.

2. Please avoid any exaggeration in what you say, I cast "doubt on everyone else"? Not at all! I suspect only Morse.

3. I don't want to convince you. You are always you, I am always me.

You can not give an explanation of Lizzie's behaviors or anyone elses really. You have to read the testimonies given and form an opinion. I don't exaggerate, and your last statement demonstrates your flippant and immature attitude that is present in all of your posts.

[Yooper]

John Morse's behavior was not suspicious enough for the authorities to suspect him at the time. They had all the same information we have. If Morse's behavior was as suspicious as Franz suggests, why did the authorities not arrest him instead of Lizzie? They would have been more than happy to pin the murders on a man rather than a woman. His alibi was airtight and he had no motive. Morse did not kill the Bordens.

I think the authorities committed a huge error: Morse's suspicious behaviours didn't draw enough attention of the police because of his convincing alibi. The police didn't consider the possibility that Morse could be the organizer of the double murder, so they suspected too soon only Lizzie. If the police, among other eventual investigations onto Morse, did a handwriting analysis of the letter allegedly written by Andrew to Morse and produced by the latter to justify his visit to Fall River, maybe they would have had some interesting discovery, who knows?

I think the authorities recognized that Lizzie had motive, means, and the exclusive opportunity to commit the murders so they correctly suspected her. There was no need on their part to concoct any monumental stupidity about Morse organizing a conspiracy, or Emma, or Dr. Bowen, or....whomever.

How do you know that the police didn't conduct a handwriting analysis on the letter from Andrew? There would have been no need to bring it up unless the defense challenged it.

[PossumPie]

FRANZ!!!! PLEASE what MOTIVE did Morse have???? I don't care one bit how suspicious someone was, where they were, with whom they were with. I want to know what possible reason could this old man have had to hack two friends/relatives to death???? I was glued to my TV on Sept. 11th 2001 as planes crashed into the WTC in New York. Was that Suspicious behavior? Who cares! I had an alibi, I was in my living room, and I had no motive! Morse had an alibi, he was at a niece's house, he had no motive. You need to supply some kind of motive.

[Franz]

FRANZ!!!! PLEASE what MOTIVE did Morse have???? I don't care one bit how suspicious someone was, where they were, with whom they were with. I want to know what possible reason could this old man have had to hack two friends/relatives to death???? I was glued to my TV on Sept. 11th 2001 as planes crashed into the WTC in New York. Was that Suspicious behavior? Who cares! I had an alibi, I was in my living room, and I had no motive! Morse had an alibi, he was at a niece's house, he had no motive. You need to supply some kind of motive.

Read my theory thread, please.

[Franz]

Yooper, you think the police did a correct job, but I think they did a very bad job. It's OK, we had opposite opinions.

(You really think that the use of some words like "monumental stupidity" is necessary, or even positive for the discussions of the forum?)

[Miranda]

Franz, according to your theory, John disliked/hated/was angry enough to kill Andrew, AND his innocent wife. there is no evidence for that, and these 2 men had known each other for decades, probably half their lives or more. John visited them like family and was welcomed with open arms apparently.

your motive simply doesn't hold water.

[Yooper]

Yooper, you think the police did a correct job, but I think they did a very bad job. It's OK, we had opposite opinions.

(You really think that the use of some words like "monumental stupidity" is necessary, or even positive for the discussions of the forum?)

I'm sure the authorities would have considered a conspiracy to be a monumental stupidity given the fact that they found someone with means, motive, and opportunity. That's why they found no pressing need to over-complicate matters when the logical answer was staring them in the face.

[PossumPie]

FRANZ!!!! PLEASE what MOTIVE did Morse have???? I don't care one bit how suspicious someone was, where they were, with whom they were with. I want to know what possible reason could this old man have had to hack two friends/relatives to death???? I was glued to my TV on Sept. 11th 2001 as planes crashed into the WTC in New York. Was that Suspicious behavior? Who cares! I had an alibi, I was in my living room, and I had no motive! Morse had an alibi, he was at a niece's house, he had no motive. You need to supply some kind of motive.

Read my theory thread, please.

Franz, I've read them all. You only say Morse felt betrayed. About what? your evidence? Betrayed how? Betrayed severely enough to hack Mr. and Mrs. Borden to death? A Motive must be something compelling enough to commit murder.

[twinsrwe]

And he didn't just 'happen' to go visiting relatives when he was in town. Visiting people is something he did on a regular basis.

That's right, Allen. The fact that he visited his relatives on a regular basis, leads me to believe that he would have had the route to and from these relatives homes memorized. As for remembering the time of arrival and departure, it appears he had the ability to remember details, which is not at all uncommon. Therefore, I don't find his detailed memory for his alibi at all suspicious.

Some people’s minds just work this way. I know a woman whom I call “The human phone directory”, because her mind maintains all of the phone numbers that she has either seen or called only once. When I mention to her that I need to call, so and so, a phone number spews out of her mouth within seconds; she doesn’t need any time at all to think about what the number may be! It intrigues me that she has this ability; it’s just the way her mind works.

[Franz]

Franz, I've read them all. You only say Morse felt betrayed. About what? your evidence? Betrayed how? Betrayed severely enough to hack Mr. and Mrs. Borden to death? A Motive must be something compelling enough to commit murder.

PossumPie, I didn't say the contrary. I have no evidence to supprot my motive theory. It's only my conjecture. I have not a time machine to return to the past. My ignorance (in fact our ignorance) about the case is my (and our) handicap. In my original thread, in the first point of the P.S. I said that Morse could be innocent, in this case I should reconsider the motive issue. It was a fact that Andrew wasn't at all a beloved man. In any case I tend to believe the killer was an intruder (and I have given my theory about how, when and from where the intruder entered in the house without being noticed by Abby or others).

Thank you for your interest for my theory.

Is your avatar image that of your pet animal? what's that?

[PossumPie]

Franz, I've read them all. You only say Morse felt betrayed. About what? your evidence? Betrayed how? Betrayed severely enough to hack Mr. and Mrs. Borden to death? A Motive must be something compelling enough to commit murder.

PossumPie, I didn't say the contrary. I have no evidence to supprot my motive theory. It's only my conjecture. I have not a time machine to return to the past. My ignorance (in fact our ignorance) about the case is my (and our) handicap. In my original thread, in the first point of the P.S. I said that Morse could be innocent, in this case I should reconsider the motive issue. It was a fact that Andrew wasn't at all a beloved man. In any case I tend to believe the killer was an intruder (and I have given my theory about how, when and from where the intruder entered in the house without being noticed by Abby or others).

Thank you for your interest for my theory.

Is your avatar image that of your pet animal? what's that?

I'm not questioning your theory...It may be valid IF we could find a motive for him. I just have never run across one. Morse voluntarily visited the family for years and years after his only tie to them (his sister) was dead. Obviously he enjoyed their company enough to keep visiting.
My picture is an Opossum. It is a nocturnal animal that lives here in the USA. I used to have a kitty that I named Possum-Pie...I don't know why, I just did. Anyway, My username all over the internet is Possum-Pie. I was one of the first people to sign up for EBAY back in the 1990's...back when all the good usernames were not yet taken, and I became Possum-Pie on EBAY.

[Franz]

Franz, according to your theory, John disliked/hated/was angry enough to kill Andrew, AND his innocent wife. there is no evidence for that, and these 2 men had known each other for decades, probably half their lives or more. John visited them like family and was welcomed with open arms apparently.

your motive simply doesn't hold water.

Miranda, (and PossumPie), apparence deceives often the judgement.

How many wives were killed by their husbands? and vice versa? how many people were killed by their (very close) relatives? In how many cases people thought that the family in question was the happiest in the world, until one day the murder happened? and when the real killer arrested, people say: "oh, I can't believe, her husband? the killer?"

Andrew had a bad reputation in his business affairs, should it be surprising if someone speculates that Andrew treated Morse only apparently cordially? Should it be possible that Morse, always believing that Andrew was a true friend, found suddenly, one day, that he had been living for many years in an illusion? And, being betrayed by his brother-in-law, could Morse have continued to visit Andrew normally for months, or even for years, and secretly tried to find an opportunity to avenge himself, and secretly organized his murder plan?

Many evidence dispeared forever in the darkness of the time. I don't force myself to do anything of impossible. But proposing a possible theory (even without sufficient evidence) for the Borden case should be always allowable. At least this is my opinion.

[Yooper]

Franz, according to your theory, John disliked/hated/was angry enough to kill Andrew, AND his innocent wife. there is no evidence for that, and these 2 men had known each other for decades, probably half their lives or more. John visited them like family and was welcomed with open arms apparently.

your motive simply doesn't hold water.

Miranda, (and PossumPie), apparence deceives often the judgement.

How many wives were killed by their husbands? and vice versa? how many people were killed by their (very close) relatives? In how many cases people thought that the family in question was the happiest in the world, until one day the murder happened? and when the real killer arrested, people say: "oh, I can't believe, her husband? the killer?"

Andrew had a bad reputation in his business affairs, should it be surprising if someone speculates that Andrew treated Morse only apparently cordially? Should it be possible that Morse, always believing that Andrew was a true friend, found suddenly, one day, that he had been living for many years in an illusion? And, being betrayed by his brother-in-law, could Morse have continued to visit Andrew normally for months, or even for years, and secretly tried to find an opportunity to avenge himself, and secretly organized his murder plan?

Many evidence dispeared forever in the darkness of the time. I don't force myself to do anything of impossible. But proposing a possible theory (even without sufficient evidence) for the Borden case should be always allowable. At least this is my opinion.

How many daughters killed their step mothers and fathers?

Lizzie disliked Abby to say the least, there is testimony to that effect. There is no testimony suggesting that Andrew and Morse did not get along. This did not disappear, it is readily available if we care to look for it. Why do we need to infer a bad relationship between Andrew and Morse when everything else suggests that they got along very well? Why would Andrew invite John back for lunch if there was animosity? Why would Morse return for lunch under the same conditions? The inference of a bad relationship is an absurdity!

[Franz]

John Morse's behavior was not suspicious enough for the authorities to suspect him at the time. They had all the same information we have. If Morse's behavior was as suspicious as Franz suggests, why did the authorities not arrest him instead of Lizzie? They would have been more than happy to pin the murders on a man rather than a woman. His alibi was airtight and he had no motive. Morse did not kill the Bordens.

I think the authorities committed a huge error: Morse's suspicious behaviours didn't draw enough attention of the police because of his convincing alibi. The police didn't consider the possibility that Morse could be the organizer of the double murder, so they suspected too soon only Lizzie. If the police, among other eventual investigations onto Morse, did a handwriting analysis of the letter allegedly written by Andrew to Morse and produced by the latter to justify his visit to Fall River, maybe they would have had some interesting discovery, who knows?

I think the authorities recognized that Lizzie had motive, means, and the exclusive opportunity to commit the murders so they correctly suspected her. There was no need on their part to concoct any monumental stupidity about Morse organizing a conspiracy, or Emma, or Dr. Bowen, or....whomever.

How do you know that the police didn't conduct a handwriting analysis on the letter from Andrew? There would have been no need to bring it up unless the defense challenged it.

The monumental stupidity, in my opinion, is Knowlton’s suspecting too quickly only Lizzie and the police’s not investigating almost at all Morse’s many suspicious behaviours.

The jury spent only one hour and something to reject the accusation. What a ringing slap in the face of the government represented by Knowlton too confident of himself! And he deserved it more than fully!

[Yooper]

Franz, I'm absolutely certain that if you had been there at the time to advise the Fall River police, they would have slapped YOU.

[Franz]

Franz, I'm absolutely certain that if you had been there at the time to advise the Fall River police, they would have slapped YOU.

I am absolutely certain that the Fall River police was not so rude and so uncivil as some members of the forum are.

[Yooper]

Franz, I'm absolutely certain that if you had been there at the time to advise the Fall River police, they would have slapped YOU.

I am absolutely certain that the Fall River police was not so rude and so uncivil as some members of the forum are.

Nor as dense as others.

[NancyDrew]

Is it really necessary to have this bickering? If you don't like something someone posts, just ignore them. I can understand being frustrated by someone's opinions. But there is no need for insults. This is not a life-and-death situation, it's a message board about a 120 year old murder mystery. It should be fun and intriguing to exchange posts...instead I'm finding this place very unpleasant.

If you have made up your mind about the Borden case, why be an active member of this forum? I'm speaking rhetorically, not to any one person in particular. Seriously though, if you've decided Lizzie did it, and there isn't anything worth discussing, or if you've decided there was no way she could do it, and it must have been some intruder that, barring new evidence being somehow unearthed, we will never know the identity of, then just go on with your life. Why come here and get yourself all upset?

This is supposed to be a free, open public forum. A place to exchange ideas, daydream possibilities, speculate alternate theories of the crime, and have a good time. I can't stand it when I see people ganging up on someone else...in my opinion, it's a form of bullying. It happens A LOT on message boards, and it never fails to turn my stomach.

Franz is the current target. Challenge him, oppose him, poke holes in his theories, point out where you think he is wrong all you want. But sarcastic insults, suggestions of physical violence and personal insults are WRONG and should be off-limits. No wonder so many people have a negative view of Americans. If you cannot say something nice, then simply refrain from commenting.

Franz, I apologize for the comments made here against. you. You've posed some challenging theories regarding who killed the Bordens, and while I agree that John Morse exhibited some peculiar, and possibly suspicious behavior, I think you've gone as far as you can with your theory. There isn't any evidence to support it, and your ideas regarding motive are weak.

What I find interesting, and what keeps me coming back to this murder is what I call "The Borden paradox." On the one hand, all evidence pointed Lizzie. There was no one else that could have committed the crime, given the evidence. From the very first observations of police officers in the house, she was suspected. It was absolutely logical that she was charged with murders of her father and step-mother.

Okay, so given that, now we begin with the trial. Here comes the paradox. After arriving at the only possible conclusion (she did it) we are then presented with lawyer, judges, and jurors who did everything they could to make sure she was acquitted. Key evidence was barred, facts were distorted, and the judge himself should have been charged with misconduct after his speech to the jury, in which he all but ORDERS them to find her 'not guilty'.

WHY DID THEY EVEN BOTHER CHARGING HER? The entire trial was nothing more than a show for the public...a farce, a spectacle, a pretense of truth-seeking. The whole thing was rigged from the start.

This fascinates and enrages me. What a complete perversion of justice! Had she been poor. or black, or Portuguese, do you think she would have been acquitted? Not bloody likely!

Let's talk about THAT---we should be having that discussion. Why? Because this is still happening today! Because justice is supposed to be blind, not greedy. Because we're supposed to be nation of laws, and because the truth shouldn't come with a price tag attached to it.

I've alluded to this before, but I am closely acquainted with the shortcomings of our legal system. "Innocent until proven guilty" is a joke. Trust me, my friends, any one of us could, at any time, find ourselves accused of a crime we did not commit, and if that happens, you'd better be very wealthy, or hope that you get lucky, because our judicial system is broken.

Right now, I have a friend whose daughter is in a lot of trouble. She's a drug addict, and this year alone, she has been in FIVE car crashes. She was drunk and/or on drugs every single time. And yet...she still has a license to drive. AND none of the accidents resulted in a conviction, not a single one. Why? Take a guess. Her father has money and connections. He's called in favors, used his power with certain unions, and in some cases, outright PAID OFF cops, lawyers, and judges to look the other way. It's disgusting.

I know I've strayed way off topic....Franz, I"m sorry for that. Let's get back to talking about things that are REAL and interesting.

For me, the subject of John Morse has reached it's natural conclusion. I've conceded many of your points, Franz...he was a strange character. But when we see a horrible crime like this happen, I think it is important ALWAYS to ask: Who benefited the most? For whom was it a GOOD thing that these two people should die, in this particular manner (brutally attacked; "over=killed" to coin a phrase) and order (Abby first)...LIZZIE.

Thanks for whomever reads this...and please, PLEASE...let us strive to show kindness, tolerance and compassion.

[Franz]

Franz, I'm absolutely certain that if you had been there at the time to advise the Fall River police, they would have slapped YOU.

Yooper, I have just read one of your replies for the topic "Lizzie and the moon landing", posted by snokkums, and I found what you said really wonderful. I quote here your reply in question. You said:

"We have the right to address the question, not the questioner. The term "you" or "certain posters" makes it personal. I seriously doubt that any "Thought Police" are necessary here."